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Bishyaler posted:I wasn't only talking about leftist insurrections, the right is far better positioned to use violence to get what they want, but they'll have control of the government soon enough through Democrat inaction and voter suppression so its a moot point. You are talking about leftist insurrections if you think the right will get a permanent rule of government. quote:The people in 1/6 lost? Not a single organizer was punished, Literally government officials. Because again, this was not a grassroots uprising. quote:the rubes on the ground barely got a slap on the wrist, More than 800 of them are charged with crimes, dozens are currently in prison. quote:Trump is still living his best life, While being literally not president, which again, was the goal of the insurrection. quote:and they've made the Democrats look weaker than ever. "Democrats look weak" is not a result of the insurrection, but you know this. quote:Sure they didn't manage to reinstall Trump into the WH, You mean the entire point of the exercise? quote:but they had a great trial-run for future action Again, success is based on things that have happened, not things that haven't. quote:and they barely suffered any consequences for it. If by some miracle they don't mop the floor with you guys in 2024, they're going to do it again. Who is "you guys", here? What even is this? At this point you aren't even talking about gun control or your insurrection fantasies, you're just hamfistedly trying to shoehorn a "Dems Bad" red herring into a discussion where you can't seem to stick to an argument without directly contradicting it. Your example of a "successful insurrection" is one where hundreds of people were arrested, many are in jail, which was broken up by the National Guard, and they completely failed to achieve their stated goal despite being explicitly endorsed and supported by a branch of the government itself. But somehow this is "successful" because you can imagine that they could totally, for realsies succeed when they plan to do it in the future, which you also argue they don't plan to do because they won't have to because the actual government officials that organize it will be in charge of the government anyway. And on top of all that, they didn't use guns. This is your blueprint for a leftist anti-whole-government armed insurrection that justifies our society continuing to use children as bullet sponges? edit: By the way, Enrique Tarrio got indicted today. So much "winning". Xombie fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 21:39
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Xombie posted:This is your blueprint for a leftist anti-whole-government armed insurrection that justifies our society continuing to use children as bullet sponges? I don't think this is happening and is aggressively unfair to the people making arguments about various efforts being misguided. When we give you a big long list of other things that need to be addressed in order to have a chance of enacting meaningful gun control that achieves your aim, which inevitably circles back to the eternal argument of D*D, it's only an argument from futility if you don't want to do those other, also good, things. Also reciting the number of people charged doesn't rebut his analysis of the ultimate punishment as a slap on the wrist because you aren't actually making an argument. I don't know that it can be rebutted but maybe we can total the jailtime and number of participants once the dust settles and see how we feel, you are right that it is ongoing.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:20
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Liquid Communism posted:Who interprets the law, and who enforces it are as important as the actual text. This is such an incredibly important part of the discussion I'm surprised it never gets mentioned. The fact that the law is largely enforced by white supremacists (cops) must be taken into account when talking about gun control.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:31
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Armored cars and tanks and guns Came to take away our sons And we just let them because You cannot fight an army
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Jun 6, 2022 23:42
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Bishyaler posted:The people in 1/6 lost? Not a single organizer was punished, the rubes on the ground barely got a slap on the wrist, Trump is still living his best life, and they've made the Democrats look weaker than ever. Sure they didn't manage to reinstall Trump into the WH, but they had a great trial-run for future action and they barely suffered any consequences for it. If by some miracle they don't mop the floor with you guys in 2024, they're going to do it again.  https://twitter.com/costareports/status/1533897749573386240?s=20&t=Fp4Xyn3OMyKJXoeSOCzatQ Charged with sedition.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:43
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:
Oh they arrested the FBI informant? Pack it up guys, Republicans have learned their lesson. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 6, 2022 23:49
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:
Yes but how many have been executed for treason, huh?  Sorry but I'm still not really following how this relates to gun control. We have two possibilities:
To me, it seems that in both case we don't actually want more guns anyway.
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Jun 7, 2022 00:00
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It's not really the argument, but the mistakes made arguing against it are pretty distracting.
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Jun 7, 2022 00:07
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:
Middle management at best, but definitely more than most of the cannon fodder they're trying.
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Jun 7, 2022 00:18
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Harold Fjord posted:It's not really the argument, but the mistakes made arguing against it are pretty distracting. What's not the argument that Gun Control will get in the way of the leftist revolution? There have been several people in the thread arguing exactly that.
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Jun 7, 2022 01:11
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Bishyaler posted:
Ok, so I notice that Northern Ireland comes up quite frequently in these discussions as a 'successful' insurgency. What do you make of the currently existing gun laws that exist in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Because generally speaking they are far, far more stringent than those that exist in America and its very much not a controversial thing within Irish politics that they are stringent, primarily for hunting and farming rather than self defense or as a fall back against an oppressive government. Here's the Republic's basic gun policies: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ireland And the North: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/northern-ireland Its generally the case that few people view returning to 70s style shootings and bombings as even vaguely acceptable, and the violence that Northern Ireland has gone through has had highly destructive effects on its economy and culture to this day. The IRA also got a lot of its weaponry from state actors like Libya or smuggled from Europe and America rather than civilians at home and tended to make use of bombs rather than firearms for their most successful campaigns. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 01:11
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Cpt_Obvious posted:This is such an incredibly important part of the discussion I'm surprised it never gets mentioned. The fact that the law is largely enforced by white supremacists (cops) must be taken into account when talking about gun control. I already addressed this point earlier: Kalit posted:.... I also mentioned that enforcement is done by the same people on both sides of gun rights/gun control. Or, stated another way, Main Paineframe posted:Cases like Philando Castile, shot simply for informing the officer of his legally-possessed firearm, just go to show that the Second Amendment is already a whites-only right Removing all gun control laws will not change this. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 02:43
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Bishyaler posted:Oh they arrested the FBI informant? Pack it up guys, Republicans have learned their lesson. Literally hundreds have been arrested. Which way is far away from your earlier completely incorrect claim that not a single organizer was punished.
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Jun 7, 2022 03:33
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Literally hundreds have been arrested. Which way is far away from your earlier completely incorrect claim that not a single organizer was punished. Hundreds of *attendees* have been arrested. Not hundreds of organizers. Nobody gives a poo poo if generic rank and file Trumpers get their slap on the wrist. Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 03:45
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Bishyaler posted:Hundreds of *attendees* have been arrested. Not hundreds of organizers. https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1481788200368492544?s=20&t=eQfAKa3HowcuS-xVjZlHBg And investigation is still ongoing...
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Jun 7, 2022 03:51
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1481788200368492544?s=20&t=eQfAKa3HowcuS-xVjZlHBg Okay, so a year and a half has resulted in 16 people charged (not convicted), none of which were in congress, and not Trump. 
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Jun 7, 2022 03:59
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Bishyaler posted:Okay, so a year and a half has resulted in 16 people charged (not convicted), none of which were in congress, and not Trump. The entire investigation has led to hundreds of charges and hundreds of sentences. At this point, I'm quite convinced you have no idea what you are talking about. https://twitter.com/SeditionHunters/status/1533279057902804992?s=20&t=qDx_YZpWHE0xo2b654JVvQ
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Jun 7, 2022 04:35
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The entire investigation has led to hundreds of charges and hundreds of sentences. At this point, I'm quite convinced you have no idea what you are talking about. Please see my previous post where I said the rank and file Trumpers don't matter. They're a dime a dozen, they're going to get a slap on the wrist and be sent on their merry way. We're way off topic anyway, but go on high-fiving the Democrat DOJ for their utterly impotent response to 1/6, I guess.
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Jun 7, 2022 06:08
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Dietrich posted:I sure wish the gun nuts would make up their mind on if a AR-15 and other military style semi-auto rifles are a lethal necessity that will let them stand up to the full weight of the entire army, or absolutely no different than a hand-gun and we're only banning it 'cause it looks scary. The problem is you're creating a false dichotomy. They're both. Hell, you can buy AR-15s that are legally by all definitions a hangun. A handgun is not some safer class of firearm, in point of fact the vast majority of homicides by firearm are committed with handguns. Gun control rarely swings at them because there's little popular support, and especially after DC v Heller, significant legal precedent against banning handguns. Edit: the only major attempt at any kind of large-scale handgun ban in the US I'm aware of were cities like Chicago and DC, who had theirs overturned by the SCOTUS. California has a more complex system of rosters for allowable hanguns, but it grandfathered existing ownership and has exceptions for police, so primarily serves as a method to enrich police officers who can obtain desirable handguns much less expensively due to not having to pay the markup to buy pre-ban weapons and can then resell them to others. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 07:24
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ToxicSlurpee posted:"Shall not be infringed" is a pretty clear statement. Historically whenever the populace gets disarmed oppression pretty much immediately follows. Even Marx was like "yeah the people get to have guns and never trust somebody who says otherwise." Yes, like the famous Japanese 16th century sword hunt that... ended up creating 250 years of internal peace and a sudden end to the civil wars that had wrecked the country since the 14th century. Huh. It's funny how a violence monopoly can turn out. But more seriously, no, it's a completely inaccurate. Large parts of Europe has been "disarmed" with stricter gun laws now than a century ago, without an unavoidable oppression being imposed on us because of our lack of ability to fight back by shooting kids with AR-15s. Americans appealing to universality when it comes to gun control and oppression should maybe look at how the effects of gun control actually look outside their own borders. I sure as hell don't feel oppressed that I'm not allowed to buy a revolver without a background check and a reason to own one. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 10:49
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lilljonas posted:Yes, like the famous Japanese 16th century sword hunt that... ended up creating 250 years of internal peace and a sudden end to the civil wars that had wrecked the country since the 14th century. Huh. It's funny how a violence monopoly can turn out. yes, europe is also happy to jail people for their ideas. why would you feel opressed? you've never experienced freedom
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Jun 7, 2022 11:43
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I'm perfectly fine with gun control after the revolution. The list of things that need to be fixed before gun control seems like it's achievable is quite long
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Jun 7, 2022 12:47
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The frustrating thing about all this is no gun ownership arguments apart from hunting stand up to scrutiny yet nothing will ever be done on a national level.
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Jun 7, 2022 12:58
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Bishyaler posted:Hundreds of *attendees* have been arrested. Not hundreds of organizers. If hundreds of movement members have been arrested - putting them under the complete control of the government and the courts - then it seems like their guns have not been very helpful at resisting government control! What the government chooses to charge them with is besides the point. Who the government chooses to charge is besides the point. What charges the courts choose to convict on are besides the point. What matters is that their guns are doing jack poo poo to keep them out of the government's hands. No matter how well-armed they were on the day of the original event, the government has been able to track them all down, gather extensive info about each of them, and swoop in to snatch each of them up one by one when their guard was down. When they're sitting in prison, completely disarmed, waiting helplessly for the government to decide how hard it's going to go after them, it's quite hard to say that their guns are doing anything at all to protect them from the government.
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Jun 7, 2022 13:03
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Bish wants to keep his low odds die roll available and you pounding on the low probability he has already acknowledged is just beating a dead horse for pages and pages.
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Jun 7, 2022 13:11
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Groovelord Neato posted:The frustrating thing about all this is no gun ownership arguments apart from hunting stand up to scrutiny yet nothing will ever be done on a national level. .....what made you think rational arguments meant anything in any level of life, at all? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 7, 2022 13:12
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Groovelord Neato posted:The frustrating thing about all this is no gun ownership arguments apart from hunting stand up to scrutiny yet nothing will ever be done on a national level. You should tell that to SCOTUS. They seem to have stated repeatedly that self defense stands up to their level of scrutiny. Not that they're universally correct, but trying to pretend the argument you personally believe 'reasonable' is the only one isn't going to get far in discussion.
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Jun 7, 2022 13:29
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:yes, europe is also happy to jail people for their ideas. why would you feel opressed? you've never experienced freedom The most important freedom is the freedom to literally be a nazi, i suppose? Nah man, I'm totally good with that level of oppression. Liquid Communism posted:You should tell that to SCOTUS. They seem to have stated repeatedly that self defense stands up to their level of scrutiny. Not that they're universally correct, but trying to pretend the argument you personally believe 'reasonable' is the only one isn't going to get far in discussion. There's legal scrutiny and logical/statistical scrutiny. If I invented a magic box that you could put in your house and told you that it would protect your property from bad people, but for every time it protected your property from a bad person, 11 good people were killed, you wouldn't buy the loving box. Dietrich fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 13:36
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Dietrich posted:If I invented a magic box that you could put in your house and told you that it would protect your property from bad people, but for every time it protected your property from a bad person, 11 good people were killed, you wouldn't buy the loving box. Is this how you think owning a gun works in practice at the individual level? This isn't how statistics apply to reality at all so it's a really super ineffective argument at the individual level. If I buy another gun and stick it in my safe, I was able to do so extra easily due to an extensively sick society. But there's no magical propagation of gun culture deaths radiating out from my safe. Your loving up causality again. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 13:45
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And some rear end in a top hat would talk about a magic box that could carry you from point A to point B and bring up similar fatality numbers and go IT'S CARS THE MAGIC BOX IS CARS. Or they'd say "My being responsible a responsible owner is all I can control, and irresponsible owners are outside my ability to influence.", or one of a thousand other arguments that have been hashed out before or since. We go long enough and someone will talk about outdoor pools. If you want the real question it's this: How do you convince someone that doesn't care what you think or what happens to you when you are in a position of helplessness and require their intervention? Because that's what it comes down to at this stage. It's either that or election reform. Talking about the merits of gun themselves isn't moving the dial for anyone.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:01
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Mulva posted:And some rear end in a top hat would talk about a magic box that could carry you from point A to point B and bring up similar fatality numbers and go IT'S CARS THE MAGIC BOX IS CARS. Or they'd say "My being responsible a responsible owner is all I can control, and irresponsible owners are outside my ability to influence.", or one of a thousand other arguments that have been hashed out before or since. People are always talking about how you should buy outdoor pools to make your family safe. Harold Fjord posted:Is this how you think owning a gun works in practice at the individual level? This isn't how statistics apply to reality at all so it's a really super ineffective argument at the individual level. Of course not or I wouldn't own my gun, but the fact remains that owning one makes you and all your loved ones less safe than not owning one. The self defense argument does not hold up to scrutiny.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:12
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You should sell your gun. I don't know how you can make these bad statistical arguments with a straight face while owning one.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:15
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Harold Fjord posted:You should sell your gun. I don't know how you can make these bad statistical arguments with a straight face while owning one. I need it to join the glorious people's revolution and defend myself from the roving hordes of fascist kill squads that will spontaneously appear in 6 months if I don't have it, remember? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 7, 2022 14:19
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Okay sure funny haha but can you actually reconcile gun ownership with the various bad arguments you've made? Because it's pretty glaring what a massive hypocrite you are.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:21
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Dietrich posted:No, the point is that hundreds of children must die every year so that leftists can have zero-friction access to military style semi-automatic weapons, it's actually the lesser of two evils. Ignore the fact that the fascists are actually way more likely to have them. Like you're literally the one arguing that your gun ownership is responsible for the death of children.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:22
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Mulva posted:And some rear end in a top hat would talk about a magic box that could carry you from point A to point B and bring up similar fatality numbers and go IT'S CARS THE MAGIC BOX IS CARS. Or they'd say "My being responsible a responsible owner is all I can control, and irresponsible owners are outside my ability to influence.", or one of a thousand other arguments that have been hashed out before or since. You mean the magic box that requires classes and a continually renewed license to operate, which has to be registered with the state and inspected upon being re-registered across state lines? The box where your safe operation of it is under constant, direct, strict police observation and enforcement?
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Jun 7, 2022 14:26
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The magic box that is literally murdering the planet and we also can't do anything about that
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Jun 7, 2022 14:28
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Harold Fjord posted:Okay sure funny haha but can you actually reconcile gun ownership with the various bad arguments you've made? Because it's pretty glaring what a massive hypocrite you are. I have a pump action 12 gauge shotgun, not a military-style semi-automatic rifle or a handgun. It is stored safely and securely. It still is more dangerous than not having it, but I'm not the one arguing that having this weapon makes me safer.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:33
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Can you quote a post saying that? There's a lot of straw flying around. I don't think the localized unsafety is a significant increase. There's a lot of correlating factors being conflated as causing the epidemic of gun violence in this country and I think counterarguments to those incorrect conflations are being misconstrued. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 14:39
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Xombie posted:You mean the magic box that requires classes and a continually renewed license to operate, which has to be registered with the state and inspected upon being re-registered across state lines? The box where your safe operation of it is under constant, direct, strict police observation and enforcement? You do know that plenty of states do require licenses and renewals both to own a gun, right? Like say....Massachusetts is just that. You need to talk to your local police department, you need to take a firearms course, and you need to get it renewed every....I wanna say six years? There's also strict rules for transport. Like did you think that was a gotcha?
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Jun 7, 2022 14:44
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