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Question: Is there an actual "TG Industry - State of it all 2022" ? Like a sort of comprehensive overview one can refer to?
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Jun 7, 2022 08:36
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:No I'm just kidding. I fundamentally disagree but I think there are some big differences about you and I run RPGs. I see where you're coming from, and you're not exactly wrong - but at the same time you can't ignore that this is a group activity. To use an analogy, suppose you went to a film appreciation club and they were conspicuously into Roman Polanski and Harvey Weinstein. With so many other great filmmakers and producers, most people are going to ask what's up with this group celebrating the works of rapists? And they'll tell you it's just good art, separate the art from the artist, etc. Which can be done on an individual or academic setting, but socially there's a lot more baggage. I don't know why so many garbage humans gravitated towards producing OSR, except that its DIY attitude and niche interest made it easier for anyone to break into. Today there are plenty of alternatives, and that's awesome, but the action of standing by an industry shitstain is still tacit endorsement - whatever words accompany the action. The answer to "is X a good game?" is going to take all that into account, especially among more socially conscious players. Because the game is as much what's between the covers as who it attracts to the table.
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Jun 7, 2022 09:20
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I think each person strikes a balance between how much of an rear end in a top hat an author is and what they bring to your table design-wise. On one end of the spectrum, Luke Crane has been a huge jerk at times, undeniably. But afaik he hasn't been a bigot nor has he done any sexual violence, etc. And his games are unique - you won't find anything quite like them and if they suit your table, you're unlikely to find an alternative. I don't judge people for playing his games. On the other end you have Zak S, who is a serial harasser, who drags down any community he is in, and who is a rapist to boot. Moreover, his designs are easily replaced by any number of other OSR type things, or even just your own set of houserules and homebrew adventures. I definitely judge people for playing his products.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:00
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MonsieurChoc posted:I kickstarted Mothership but didn't run it yet. What are the problems with it? V pretty much covered it, I think. I also preferred the third-party Calm system over either of the official sanity systems and hoped 1e would take inspiration from it instead of moving to another odd mechanic, but I believe Calm is compatible with 1e with some tweaking. Been a minute since I looked at the 1e mechanics to get super specific. I'm probably not running it again, regardless of edition, though - so my thoughts on it don't really matter I guess.
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Jun 7, 2022 14:12
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Jimbozig posted:I think each person strikes a balance between how much of an rear end in a top hat an author is and what they bring to your table design-wise. Given that he namedropped ACKS (Alexander Macris) and Flame Princess, I suspect there’s a vested interest here in pretending that it’s okay to buy and play poo poo made by literally the worst people.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:05
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I tend not to judge people who play games or material by lovely people, I have friends who are still playing Dungeon World for instance, I only tend to care if they like start actually defending the garbage person.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:13
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Yeah but Milo Inc. and fuckin' Flame Princess? C'mon.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:27
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Here I'm praying Cublicle 7 and Free League stay decent because I will be out of games to play
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Jun 7, 2022 15:35
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I don't think it's possible to separate the work from the creator, and there are so many alternatives out there that I just don't think it's at all necessary to practice the deliberate ignorance and mental back-flips required to do so. I know I can't look at Tekumel the same after finding out what an absolute rear end in a top hat MAR Barker was, and the fact that the Tekumel Foundation tried to hide this info just adds to my disappointment. I used to really like the setting; it was, in its day, a near-unique alternative to the Northwest European Anglo Saxon Tolkien fantasy that was all-pervasive at the time. But knowing what we do know, the parts that looked mildly iffy back then look like racist rants now, and I'm just not going to bring that to my table.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:39
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I've never really played with a group that thinks about who the author of a game is or discusses them basically at all. I don't think it's something thay people at a table are thinking about. Also if you want the system but the author is bad you could always just steal the game
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Jun 7, 2022 15:42
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Farg posted:I've never really played with a group that thinks about who the author of a game is or discusses them basically at all. I don't think it's something thay people at a table are thinking about. Also if you want the system but the author is bad you could always just steal the game Yeah I’m the only terminally industry-aware person in my group, too, and I don’t think that’s uncommon.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:46
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Cessna posted:I don't think it's possible to separate the work from the creator, and there are so many alternatives out there that I just don't think it's at all necessary to practice the deliberate ignorance and mental back-flips required to do so.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:54
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I think it's important to let people know, particularly if the person is alive and potentially making money off something and thereby still potentially continuing to cause harm. I don't own any games from serious bad actors (that I know about) but I can imagine saying, "This game is called X. Before we begin, let me say that I do not suggest you buy it, because the designer Y'd. I would not have bought X but I had not found out that before doing so. I think it's important to tell you all this because bad actors prey on a lack of awareness, which is why I'm specifically telling you this. I still like the game in and of itself, which is why I'm suggesting we play it." If you tell someone they don't care for whatever reason, ok. And, yeah, as I said, I have no history in actually attempting this. It will depends on your friends and how they would answer that same question. I did have to tell a friend about The Broken Token allegations after he bought an insert and was considering getting others, which was a bit awkward but there was no question to the importance of such a matter. Other cases might be slightly harder sells.
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Jun 7, 2022 15:55
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Mors Rattus posted:Given that he namedropped ACKS (Alexander Macris) and Flame Princess, I suspect there’s a vested interest here in pretending that it’s okay to buy and play poo poo made by literally the worst people. But what if you want to play a D&D that isn't D&D? Those are the only two other alternatives, there aren't any others, what are you going to to? Also how wild that RPGNow just kicked off a Nazi for their platform, but is still delighted to sell nonsense by Spectre Press and Autarch, LLC? I'd love to hear their reasoning for which line* they draw for how Nazi you have to be to get the boot. You can be kind of a Nazi, but not too visibly. * Probably just a curve labeled "monthly sales", mind.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:03
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:
Any parts you use unaltered are the engraved invitations to have the creator sitting in an empty chair at your gaming table. Even if you alter them, the creators may still very much be present. Simplistic example: if the designer(s) made a game with ability scores that never change, and you leave that part unaltered, then you have inherited the game's position that people's abilities are static and inherent. If that game's mechanics gave some player races/species/backgrounds greater bonuses to certain ablity scores (let's pick Intelligence, completely arbitrarily), and you said "hmm, I don't think I like that!" and houseruled it away, you are still the inheritor of static inherent abilities, just not the essentializing racial bonuses. Magnetic North posted:I think it's important to let people know, particularly if the person is alive and potentially making money off something and thereby still potentially continuing to cause harm. I have done this a few times with designers and themes, and my anecdotal experience is that people rarely give their purchases give this much nuanced thought, but generally appreciated that I had. Nobody has decided against playing. One person appreciated it in one case and didn't in another, because the latter game (Puerto Rico, of all things) had a lot more nostalgia attached to it.
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Jun 7, 2022 16:37
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sasha_d3ath posted:Yeah but It's especially egregious because both of those systems basically boil down to "BX D&D with some houserules stapled on", which is not at all a genre that is bereft of alternatives! Heck, even taking the matter of supporting CHUDs off the table, you're probably better off using something other than LotFP because it means you won't have to sift through a rulebook that's 25% game content and 75% Raggi's "EVERYONE IS AN IDIOT EXCEPT FOR ME" rants...
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Jun 7, 2022 17:29
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sasha_d3ath posted:Yeah but I'll be honest I don't know anything about those, and wasn't referring to them specifically. Was speaking less specifically
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Jun 7, 2022 18:07
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So while I think there's a scale of sorts when it comes to lovely game writers - I think buying and boosting and promoting their games is worse than GMing them, and GMing them is worse than playing them at a table - I don't know why you would choose to buy or run a game by a nazi or a rapist or whatever when there's so many games out there that aren't. Like... Even if you want OSR games, there's Goodman and Crawford and the like. I don't think I need to agree with or even like my game's creators but ... there's a line, you know? Macris and Zak and Raggi are well on the other side of that line. And I think it's okay to say "nah gently caress that game, the creator is trash" without even looking at the game's quality.
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Jun 7, 2022 18:16
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Dexo posted:I'll be honest I don't know anything about those, and wasn't referring to them specifically. Was speaking less specifically Okay so the issue here is, in fact, the specifics. ACKS is produced by Alexander Macris, a literal alt right figure who actively worked for and ran the business of Milo Yiannapoulos, comma, Nazi cheerleader. Lamentations of the Flame Princess is James Raggi, active and ongoing supporter of Zak S, comma, actual abuser and stalker who has gone after members if this forum and friends of many here. lovely people, generally and specifically, do not need your financial support. There’s always specifics, and declaring generally that actually giving money to lovely people is okay but, uh, I’m sorry I didn’t mean these specific ones is some mealymouthed poo poo
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Jun 7, 2022 18:29
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Uh, that's not what I meant by that. Chillax I would not be buying it, or supporting them at all, I legitimately did not know about any of that. Just like I would never pay for another one of Adam Koebel's projects or games. I was more just talking like coming across some people playing a game, and assigning some moral judgement on people. I am fairly online and I didn't know about the above poo poo for example.
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Jun 7, 2022 18:39
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dwarf74 posted:I don't think I need to agree with or even like my game's creators but ... there's a line, you know? Macris and Zak and Raggi are well on the other side of that line. And I think it's okay to say "nah gently caress that game, the creator is trash" without even looking at the game's quality. Baseball has the Mendoza Line. (tl;dr, if you can't hit better than .200, you're getting cut even if you're a good fielder.) Maybe gaming should have the Gygax Line.
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Jun 7, 2022 18:54
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KingKalamari posted:It's especially egregious because both of those systems basically boil down to "BX D&D with some houserules stapled on", which is not at all a genre that is bereft of alternatives! But I very rarely have to face those moral quandaries because most of the notorious people in the RPG business are producing D&D-related content, most of their content is lazy crap, and what isn't lazy crap is rarely unique. If you like ACKS' domain management, there are more options for that now than there were when it was published a decade ago. If you like LotFP's skill system, it's so simple that you can port it into your games based on having it described to you.
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Jun 7, 2022 19:01
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Mors Rattus posted:Lamentations of the Flame Princess is James Raggi, active and ongoing supporter of Zak S Reminder also that the only reason Raggi moved to Finland was because the online alt-model he had been cyber-stalking was a Finn. Unsurprisingly, she never wanted to meet him. Raggi went on to base the titular Flame Princess in LotFP art on her likeness. Dude's a loving creep.
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Jun 7, 2022 19:01
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Ferrinus posted:More sad than mad nowadays! A lot of hard work and love has clearly gone into PF2 (possibly not more work, but certainly more love, than into 5E). But, no matter what, we can never break the cardinal rule. This largely holds true, but I will point out that 13th Age Glorantha added a Fighter with daily powers called the Humakti Warrior.
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Jun 7, 2022 19:56
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Mr.Misfit posted:Question: Is there an actual "TG Industry - State of it all 2022" ? Like a sort of comprehensive overview one can refer to? I started writing one because I couldn't find one but I've been going for two hours and haven't finished writing about system trends so I'm going to say 'please narrow down what you're asking for'. The state of it all is... large.
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Jun 7, 2022 20:22
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potatocubed posted:I started writing one because I couldn't find one but I've been going for two hours and haven't finished writing about system trends so I'm going to say 'please narrow down what you're asking for'. TG Industry - state of it all 2022 - Finally got my old landlord to let me pick up my 2020 Kickstarter fulfillments
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Jun 7, 2022 20:26
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Halloween Jack posted:If you like ACKS' domain management, there are more options for that now than there were when it was published a decade ago. I was pretty excited about the ACKS domain management system when it first came out (before Gamergate revealed the rot under its surface), but I have to say it fails pretty badly within the design goals it operates under. Like, you've got a pretty streamlined and elegant system at the core (although the big contribution that ACKS had for B/X was introducing feats to it, which is just about the opposite of what I want), but the domain management system is absurdly heavy and complex. You've got a system where fighting is simple and lightweight, but determining the price of wheat in a fishing village versus a forest town is crunchy and cumbersome. I really don't know who it's for
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Jun 7, 2022 21:00
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Dexo posted:Uh, that's not what I meant by that. Chillax Sure. There's also a difference between playing a game you've already bought and buying more stuff. If there's an appropriate time and you bring it up and they keep buying into the game of the shifty person, then it's time for judgin'.
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Jun 7, 2022 21:01
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OtspIII posted:I was pretty excited about the ACKS domain management system when it first came out (before Gamergate revealed the rot under its surface), but I have to say it fails pretty badly within the design goals it operates under. Like, you've got a pretty streamlined and elegant system at the core (although the big contribution that ACKS had for B/X was introducing feats to it, which is just about the opposite of what I want), but the domain management system is absurdly heavy and complex. You've got a system where fighting is simple and lightweight, but determining the price of wheat in a fishing village versus a forest town is crunchy and cumbersome. I really don't know who it's for
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Jun 7, 2022 21:08
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Octavo posted:This largely holds true, but I will point out that 13th Age Glorantha added a Fighter with daily powers called the Humakti Warrior. Who can be a Duck, as they often worship Humakt, god of death.
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Jun 7, 2022 22:02
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MonsieurChoc posted:Who
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Jun 7, 2022 22:08
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I'm gonna be playing a Humakti Duck, called Venharl Helmcleaver, in an upcoming Runequest game. Hell yeah.
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Jun 7, 2022 22:09
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DuckTales: Glorantha
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Jun 7, 2022 22:14
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OtspIII posted:I was pretty excited about the ACKS domain management system when it first came out (before Gamergate revealed the rot under its surface), but I have to say it fails pretty badly within the design goals it operates under. Like, you've got a pretty streamlined and elegant system at the core (although the big contribution that ACKS had for B/X was introducing feats to it, which is just about the opposite of what I want), but the domain management system is absurdly heavy and complex. You've got a system where fighting is simple and lightweight, but determining the price of wheat in a fishing village versus a forest town is crunchy and cumbersome. I really don't know who it's for I'm honestly not aware of anything that does the same, although there are games which do part of it at one level of focus or another. The GURPS realm management supplement is way more abstract, while HârnManor doesn't go above a manor. An Echo, Resounding basically takes the opposite approach (and is great). It's also one of those things that might work better as a solo spreadsheet worldbuilding/world simulation tool than a game. Even then, daydreaming about it is so, so much more fun than actually doing it that I'm quite happy not paying one of the key architects of gamergate for access to his spreadsheet instructions. But if a non-chud was to put out some kind of dream bottom-up D&D world simulator, I'd be throwing money their way.
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Jun 7, 2022 22:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm gonna be playing a Humakti Duck, called Venharl Helmcleaver, in an upcoming Runequest game. Wisdom. I was in a Glorantha game recently and was pretty disappointed that my Humakti couldn’t be a duck. Like, why even bother then?
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Jun 7, 2022 23:01
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D&D Beyond's brave pride month merchandizing is region-blocked to avoid offending regressive regimes. 
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Jun 7, 2022 23:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:D&D Beyond's brave pride month merchandizing is region-blocked to avoid offending regressive regimes. God that's loving wack
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Jun 8, 2022 00:06
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potatocubed posted:I started writing one because I couldn't find one but I've been going for two hours and haven't finished writing about system trends so I'm going to say 'please narrow down what you're asking for'. I'd be interested in seeing what you have written, because my impression is that when speaking specifically about the industry side of things that the whole industry remains incredibly opaque. To my knowledge, nobody actually shares any sales data outside of occasional indie publishers. How many copies of PF2 have been sold? How many copies of 5E? What's the breakdown in terms of operating costs? How much did shows like Critical Role affect D&D's sales? How many copies of, idk, Mork Borg have been sold, to grab a random indie game, and how does that stack up against other self-published games in that period? All of this is stuff that would be neat to know, and as far as I know nobody who has any of this info feels like sharing it, which means a huge chunk of actual industry analysis remains mostly speculative. e; and all of this isn't even getting into things like ever-increasing shipping costs, global paper shortages, the still-unchecked fuckin pandemic, etc, all of which are having knock-on effects throughout both the TRPG and boardgame industries right now.
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Jun 8, 2022 01:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:D&D Beyond's brave pride month merchandizing is region-blocked to avoid offending regressive regimes. Not surprising, sadly. Their (otherwise cool) pride Secret Lair for MTG was so aggressively region locked that some places without regressive regimes (at least in that sense) couldn’t get it. Like they excluded the entirety of South America, for example.
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Jun 8, 2022 03:50
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Kai Tave posted:as far as I know nobody who has any of this info feels like sharing it, which means a huge chunk of actual industry analysis remains mostly speculative. Oh no, my piece was also... not quite speculative, since I do think I know what I'm talking about, but not backed up with hard data or anything. Just 'poo poo that I have observed'. Very much a personal overview meant as a starting point for discussion. I also wholly forgot to include a section for shipping and printing costs, which does need to be in there. But an overview of everything would have been so huge it would have taken me the better part of a week to write and I have other things I need to do in that time.
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Jun 8, 2022 09:10
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