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The second most important thing you need to understand in cspam and succ zone besides blitzball is this: the purpose of a system is what it does
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Jun 8, 2022 09:06
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:The funniest detail of that is actually that it was provably a lie because people could see the title of the hentai on the tab and looked it up and it wasn't tentacle-related at all Kreeblah posted:The gist is that you have two groups. The group doing the stuff you want, and, because people might disagree with them, the group to oppose them. But the group to oppose them might actually cause you problems, so you've gotta make sure it's gonna be useless. But, by having an opposition group already established, that's where people's attention and energy goes if they disagree with the group doing the stuff you want. A controlled opposition makes sure that attention and energy is wasted instead of meaningfully undoing what the first group is doing. That aside, some Democrats seemingly genuinely do want to consolidate their own power and take it away from Republicans (and empower themselves and their donors while shooting their constituents in the feet for the foolishness of assuming they'd actually do something). So they're not aware of the puppet show, or is that all part of the theater, too? I dunno how better to word that so I hope it makes sense. I'm off to bed but I will check this thread when I wake up. Thank you again to everyone who was willing to answer some of my questions or present points, I know you've probably heard this stuff a lot before and I know some people are just doing bad faith sealioning stuff. I genuinely do want to learn more and this last page has already given me a lot of stuff to think about. I really appreciate it! TheIncredulousHulk posted:The second most important thing you need to understand in cspam and succ zone besides blitzball is this: the purpose of a system is what it does
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Jun 8, 2022 09:07
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Tiny Myers posted:lol, lmao All other things being equal, the Democrat apparatus in the aggregate would prefer to be in charge, but only if they're able to achieve that without compromising their fundamental goals and principles. In practice this tends to mean losing a lot and acquiescing to Republican pressure because losing and giving up align with their interests more than winning does To put it in a simple arrangement, suppose that Democrats know they would win a crushing electoral victory if the party coalesced around Medicare For All as a campaign centerpiece. They don't want to pass M4A though. They'll try to win without it if they can, but if it's a choice between M4A and losing, they'll pick losing Tiny Myers posted:Just to make sure I understand - you mean that the results of a system are purposeful? Like if a system supposedly puts out green balls but all it does is red ones, it must've been purposely engineered that way especially for it to be left making red balls so long, ergo the system we have is purposefully rigged in many ways? It's more like the presumed intent of individual pieces of a system are irrelevant relative to their function, as is the nominal intent of systems as a whole. It's an important distinction because the soft left-lib characterization of American political brutalities often describe our systems as being corrupted or broken when that isn't actually true For another simple example, policing in this country is often described as a system designed to protect people but is dysfunctional in such a way that it brutalizes people instead of protecting them. If the purpose of a system is what it does, that means that regardless of how it's described, the purpose of policing is to brutalize people and the analysis that you do from there should be premised on the understanding that the brutality is a product of systemic success Idk if that makes sense, it's 3:30am and I'm watching an Italian man play Magic the Gathering while I type it. Somebody smarter explain it if I hosed up
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Jun 8, 2022 09:27
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WampaLord posted:lmao get hosed destinies are demographics
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Jun 8, 2022 09:31
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Tiny Myers posted:Hmmm. So it's kind of like a decoy? That makes sense, but don't some people go into the democratic party with genuine good intentions or desires to change things in more radical ways, especially at local government levels? Is it just that they largely get defused and undermined at every step of the way by the people already in power to make sure they don't make it there, like what happened with Bernie? A decoy would be a way of looking at it, sure. And, yeah, there are some folks who go into politics with good intentions, but they're not allowed to get anywhere where they might be able to do some real damage until/unless they've compromised their principles. Bernie's a great example with how the party ratfucked him in the presidential primaries, but you can find others, too. The thing with the Democrats is that they want to do nothing, per se, but they want to do nothing useful for regular people. If their corporate donors want something, though, they'll jump on that right quick, because the reward for playing ball for however long you're in office is a cushy, do-nothing "job" as a "consultant" that pays more than most people can ever hope to make. Plus sometimes there are book deals, appearance fees for speeches, donations to your foundation so you can give your failchildren cushy jobs on somebody else's dime, etc. Other people might disagree with me on this, but as best I can tell, the extent that Democrats want to have power is really defined by how much they can use that power to funnel cash towards their corporate donors and the army of consultants they hire which are disproportionately kids of well-off, connected people who are too useless to do anything else. But it helps keep the money coming in, because then their parents are more likely to open up the checkbook. Edit: Also, this can be a useful concept for looking at some of this stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does Kreeblah has issued a correction as of 09:33 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 8, 2022 09:31
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Tiny Myers posted:lol, lmao The party apparatus is extremely effective at doing exactly one thing, and that is squashing dissent from the left. To use your Bernie example, in the 2020 primaries, as soon as it became apparent that Bernie had any chance of winning at all, the party's leadership coerced all the second stringers and had them all endorse Biden in a single weekend right before an important primary. On a more local level, anyone with leftist leanings is hung out to dry, ignored by the party apparatus until they actually begin to amass a following. At that point, the party will prop up a centrist milquetoast candidate who will toe the party line, usually using an obscene amount of out-of-state money to do so. Anyone who does have good intentions and actual desire for change must fight an extremely well-monied national machine that is seemingly purpose-built to squash leftist movements in the party.
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Jun 8, 2022 09:33
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The system provides jobs and cushy careers to those who successfully get into it, even after they leave. Being in power, creating policy or helping people is not a requirement
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Jun 8, 2022 09:38
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Tiny Myers posted:
i was gonna post POSIWID earnestly at you initially, but TheIncredulousHulk brought it up. it's a systems thinking heuristic by stafford beer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does quote:According to the cybernetician, the purpose of a system is what it does. This is a basic dictum. It stands for bald fact, which makes a better starting point in seeking understanding than the familiar attributions of good intention, prejudices about expectations, moral judgment, or sheer ignorance of circumstances. in your example, it doesn't matter if the machine spitting out red balls has a giant banner on it that says GREEN BALL MACHINE; from what you can observe and quantify, this machine has only been spitting out red balls, ergo: it's a red ball machine. when it comes to the succzone, everyone here can see that the machine is spitting out red balls. when it comes to the broader political landscape, if you point that out, you'll be on the receiving end of a bunch of people screaming at your face that no actually, those balls are green because the machine is labeled the green ball machine. Phone has issued a correction as of 09:53 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 8, 2022 09:51
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Dr. Kyle Farnsworth posted:Some more things for the new person to consider. These sound like gotchas but they may give you the ol' crack-ping.
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Jun 8, 2022 09:53
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The saying points to how the Democrats don't have any goals besides electing themselves.
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Jun 8, 2022 09:54
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I'll start with "controlled opposition". While not all of us are Marxists, lots of us use a Marxist analysis which is more class-based than identity based as you may be used to, and Capital, which is to say rich people, is who I am talking about. Capital does not have a problem with fascism! IBM happily sold Nazi Germany computers to make running the Holocaust easier. Or just look up the Business Plot. However, it is useful to the capital classes to have a political party or movement to bleed off leftist sentiment or worker rebellion or resistance or to turn street protests into "Just vote!" The important distinction is not neccesarily this is George Soros or Bill Gates (as in the conspiracy theories), it's more rich people and business leaders as a class. Talking about The Bilderberg Group gets you eyerolls and smirks like you're a nutjob conspiracy theorist talking kuh-ray-zee, but it exists. It's one of several meetings and clubs that rich muckitymucks and politicos have where they literally do plan what they're going to do next. poo poo, Bilderberg has a website. Bohemian Grove has been documented for years. Davos is regularly covered in the press. So: Notice how quick the party of "We will Trust the Scientists" pivoted into the party of "alright, COVID is over, everyone back to the office! Butts in seats!" Is that because letting their voters die is good for the party? Or because it is good for Capital? Or: If the Democratic Party really does represent the poor and people of color, why is it so heavily focused on the lanyard class in like 12 major cities on the coasts and not many of the places where the poor and people of color live? (This is one that gets liberals real mad). The Republican Party has a political project and goals they are striving for. The Democratic Party has...what, exactly? Does the Democratic Party exist to do more than let existing grandees fundraise and play important muckitymucks? Are they as helpless as they appear? If so, how do they mobilize to defang Bernie and "defund the police" and everything resembling popular uprising so quickly? (By the way, check who was president when Occupy was crushed). Obama won a sweeping election and more or less complete control of the government then promptly turned over his signature issue of health care to the health care companies and their cohorts in Congress. Now, some people will say that's because he was a CIA plant, which is possible, but does he have to be? Are the Democrats really just helpless West Wing addled idiots? (Entirely possible!). Does it matter if the outcomes are the same? A couple examples: Pack the Supreme Court. Congress has the power to set the number of Supreme Court justices! Biden convened...a commission that basically mumbled and shuffled away. They may not have succeeded in passing the bill but they could've tried. Statehood for PR and DC. This would likely give Democrats 4 more Senators. Which would eliminate Manchin and Sinema's stranglehold. I mentioned some of the widely popular policies they could pursue if they were genuinely interested in winning and putting forth a political project. Many of these are even popular with Republicans, but the Democrats don't do it. Why? Why are they widely known as the party of feckless boobs? But yet when Bernie appears to get some momentum for an actual leftist project, man, they become the most capable political operators known to man. When there's an actual outsider candidate running like Fetterman, they piss their pants because he's not a Troop Centrist McKinsey Consultant and when he wins against their designated troop centrist, "vote blue no matter who" goes out the door. (And Fetterman isn't much of a leftist, except on weed). It's not necessarily the CIA visiting with the heart attack gun in an overt sense (though I'm sure that happens), it's more if you rock the boat, you don't get the plum committee assignments, you don't get the nice office space, you don't get the lobbyist connections, you don't get the plum spots on company boards if you lose or decide to take a break, you don't get supported for gubernatorial runs or other offices. While C-Spam doesn't like her (except for Smythe), in a reasonable world, AOC would be in everything the party does because she's attractive, social media savvy, young, and capable. Instead, the party apparatus came down on her like a ton of bricks for not toeing the line. It doesn't have to be the heart attack gun, you see. And she probably is a spook or spook-adjacent. Fetterman is already toeing the line on Israel and he hasn't even won the office. Why does the party keep wheeling out Drunk Nancy and the rest of the "literally poo poo their pants on live TV because they are so old" ghouls? Because it exists to serve their interests and their interests are making money off insider trading and being big shots and all Capital has to do is threaten to turn off the money taps. Liberals are more afraid of an actual leftist movement than they are of fascism and will always side with fascists to crush the actual left. (This is exactly what happened in Germany). tldr: the "these people are not your friends" speech Dr. Kyle Farnsworth has issued a correction as of 10:13 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 8, 2022 10:02
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lol democrat kicking out a leftist DA because he wasn't brutally subjugating the homeless enough.
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Jun 8, 2022 12:18
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Dr. Kyle Farnsworth posted:Dude: *tells me his sad story about his wife dying* Moveon.org
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Jun 8, 2022 12:29
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Trabisnikof posted:Democratic leadership is honest about how they feel if you listen This is one my brain keeps firing back up sometimes, it's so insane
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Jun 8, 2022 12:30
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https://mobile.twitter.com/stevenpsloan/status/1534387252125650945
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Jun 8, 2022 12:37
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heated Democrat moment
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Jun 8, 2022 12:43
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it's time to get back to policies that make sense: allowing cvs to shoot all suspected shoplifters on sight
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Jun 8, 2022 12:45
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Asproigerosis posted:lol democrat kicking out a leftist DA because he wasn't brutally subjugating the homeless enough. California loving loves cops and hates homeless people. The rich libs here want nothing more on this earth than for everyone poorer than them serving time, preferably in a way that makes them even richer.
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Jun 8, 2022 12:46
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https://mobile.twitter.com/npfandos/status/1534291230540107777
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Jun 8, 2022 12:48
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it will never cease to amaze me about how american politicians can be bribed with so little $
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Jun 8, 2022 12:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:The saying points to how the Democrats don't have any goals besides electing themselves. does landing an MSNBC or lobbying gig after leaving office count as a goal?
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Jun 8, 2022 13:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:heated Democrat moment
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Jun 8, 2022 13:13
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Asproigerosis posted:I thought we sorted the whole terrible latinx thing lol the vast majority of people actually 'affected' by it don't even think it's real because it's not loving real spanish but yea the rich libs love to drag it out still as a totem to make them into the good guys while they brutalize ~latinx~ people. Hey has that useless piece of poo poo done any fake crying photo ops at biden's camps, by the way?
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Jun 8, 2022 13:20
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Dr. Kyle Farnsworth posted:
He's busy ok???? He got a big Netflix deal! It's not ok for the first black president to get paid once he retires????? Racist!
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Jun 8, 2022 13:23
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bag em and tag em posted:California loving loves cops and hates homeless people. The rich libs here want nothing more on this earth than for everyone poorer than them serving time, preferably in a way that makes them even richer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlvUz6phquo
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Jun 8, 2022 13:32
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i appreciate the succ zone as a term bc it makes me think of philip seymour hoffman and that makes me happy
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Jun 8, 2022 13:32
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Palladium posted:it will never cease to amaze me about how american politicians can be bribed with so little $ Yeah whenever I see all these stories and poo poo by ethics finance contribution whatever and it's like Joe Manchin has received $100,000 from big pharma over his career spanning decades! I'm just like uh that's it? There's gotta be millions in under the table bribes to politicians because I do not see how anyone would be swayed by sad low energy car payments.
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Jun 8, 2022 13:34
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Asproigerosis posted:Yeah whenever I see all these stories and poo poo by ethics finance contribution whatever and it's like Joe Manchin has received $100,000 from big pharma over his career spanning decades! I'm just like uh that's it? There's gotta be millions in under the table bribes to politicians because I do not see how anyone would be swayed by sad low energy car payments. his entire daughter's life is paid for by lobbyists and doesn't count so there's that
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Jun 8, 2022 13:35
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https://twitter.com/GarbageApe/status/1534508616186830848 the suck zone
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Jun 8, 2022 13:45
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The Republicans are working to fully eliminate trans people, Democrats don't want to take a stand one way or the other https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1534273001293758464?s=20&t=eZo01xVP4QySOf0LuFFILA
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Jun 8, 2022 13:47
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if you're from Massena, you are probably one of two things: a salmon fisherman or a lib returning from exile during the Trump years. let them have their fancy small businesses
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Jun 8, 2022 14:05
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amazing to see d&d do another 180 flip on vote forcing when it's something they care sufficiently enough about lmao
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Jun 8, 2022 14:08
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haha I just hope that these feckless shits get lynched by the fash before me
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Jun 8, 2022 14:08
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Kitfox88 posted:haha I just hope that these feckless shits get lynched by the fash before me they will. inshallah
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Jun 8, 2022 14:11
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Asproigerosis posted:lol democrat kicking out a leftist DA because he wasn't brutally subjugating the homeless enough. That's only a small reason why they kicked him out. As someone with SF roots and family still there, the Asian community is really pissed at Boudin for how he's been handling hate crimes there, he's said some insensitive things about some of the crimes and also did some sketchy poo poo like putting violent attackers in diversion/restorative justice programs rather than prosecuting and pretending the victim was ok with it when the victim couldn't speak any english and they didn't have a translator, basically violating Marsy's law. I wouldn't be surprised if the Asian community made up the bulk of the recall vote. Asian hate crimes are up like 567% year over year. He also campaigned on not prosecuting quality of life crimes, which was kind of a fuckup, because all of the visible quality of life issues (drug dealers selling fent/heroin out in broad daylight... even in front of police and homeless) got pinned on him, both rightly and wrongly. The homeless thing isn't his fault, as that's more of a total SF government fuckup, but the voters pinned it on him based on what he campaigned on. He basically said he wasn't going to charge any of the drug dealers and gave them lower accessory charges where they were allowed back on the street to deal drugs again. Lots of homeless people are dying from fent in SF and families don't feel safe in areas where they're visible like the Tenderloin area of SF. From the stats I've seen, he charged drug dealers way less than even his predecessor, Gascon, who was also a progressive reform minded DA (who's also facing recall as the DA in LA). Lastly, he had something crazy like 40% turnover in his office where assistant DA's were quitting left and right out of protest, resulting in a huge backlog of cases, and one of the ADA's, a young female/black prosecutor has been campaigning against him basically arguing that she's in favor of diversion over incarceration in non-violent crimes, but Chesa has been giving diversion chances to violent offenders too and just not prosecuting those crimes. That was pretty devastating to him both because of the narrative and also because of IDPOL. If you actually look at who was hitting the streets to campaign for his recall, it was basically a multiracial coalition, but when Boudin was campaigning, it was mostly older upper middle class white men and women who were campaigning with him. Not a good look. Mister Fister has issued a correction as of 14:20 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 8, 2022 14:11
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Gripweed posted:The Republicans are working to fully eliminate trans people, Democrats don't want to take a stand one way or the other Legalizing raping cis girls to own the trannies Thanks, democrats
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Jun 8, 2022 14:17
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Yeah I read about those quitting DAs at the time and they seemed to suck poo poo and loved jailing everyone. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig here, this is a victory for everyone who thinks the drug war is winnable and the jail cell is the answer to society's problems.
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Jun 8, 2022 14:19
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Shageletic posted:Yeah I read about those quitting DAs at the time and they seemed to suck poo poo and loved jailing everyone. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig here, this is a victory for everyone who thinks the drug war is winnable and the jail cell is the answer to society's problems. So, democrats.
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Jun 8, 2022 14:20
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Mister Fister posted:That's only a small reason why they kicked him out. As someone with SF roots and family still there, the Asian community is really pissed at Boudin for how he's been handling hate crimes there, he's said some insensitive things about some of the crimes and also did some sketchy poo poo like putting violent attackers in diversion/restorative justice programs rather than prosecuting and pretending the victim was ok with it when the victim couldn't speak any english and they didn't have a translator, basically violating Marsy's law. I wouldn't be surprised if the Asian community made up the bulk of the recall vote. 'you don't get it, he wasn't brutal enough to the homeless and poor'
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Jun 8, 2022 14:20
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the homeless have had it too good for too long. it's time to change that.
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Jun 8, 2022 14:24
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