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XboxPants posted:We know the Upside Down is actually a physical place that humans can travel to and take up space in. But Max's body was in the graveyard. So, what was Vecna seeing? Did he create a physical double of her? Maybe something weirder, like her body is in the real world, but her mind actually traveled to the Upside Down and exists as something that can still be seen, like a shadowy echo? I had similar thoughts in S1 about Will, before they revealed Will's "body" was an explicit fake. The Upside Down manifests duplicate mirror versions of physical things, so for a minute there I assumed the Will they fished out of the lake *was* the original Will. But nope. Rubber mannequin or something. The easiest explanation for Max is just that it was all psychic mind-palace poo poo. It was only ever a subjective and nonphysical experience, but that she did trespass into a part of Vecna's mind he didn't want her accessing, that closely resembled his physical habitat in the Upside Down. Avasculous posted:Yeah, I was thinking about this. I do not think they're aligned because in S2 and S3, the MF was desperate to defend the gate and neutralized when it was closed. Vecna can apparently act on the world without a gate and open new ones at will. I also wondered about that with the Mind Flayer and the Upside Down. The MF really relied on the gate to maintain a presence in Hawkins, even to maintain a psychic one through Will. I guess because it's a swarm that needs to be loosely contiguous? But the MKULTRA kids don't need to do that, can astral project and reach out across realities no problem (something Eleven does in S1 and that Vecna does all this season.) And the Demogorgon in S1 was also able to create new gates, albeit temporarily while hunting. How does it all work? My wild speculation is that it's similar to the "dark forest" concept from Cixin Liu's books. Maybe the issue isn't that the MF *can't* reach out across the multiverse, but that it's so vast that Hawkins is a needle in a massive haystack without some big glowing sign pointing the way. Vecna can find Hawkins because he's from there, recognizes humanity and human consciousness because he is those things, even seeks them out. But maybe a massive sentient swarm of alien particles wouldn't ever have noticed Earth unless some stupid rear end humans knocked on the door first. Maybe when the gate collapsed, the MF *could've* tried to find Hawkins again, but it's like dialing random numbers until you get the same number you just hung up.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:21
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AndyElusive posted:The control chip was in the right side of One's neck. Max rips out a chunk from the left side. Don't you mean... Stirge? 
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Jun 6, 2022 22:29
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Xealot posted:I had similar thoughts in S1 about Will, before they revealed Will's "body" was an explicit fake. The Upside Down manifests duplicate mirror versions of physical things, so for a minute there I assumed the Will they fished out of the lake *was* the original Will. But nope. Rubber mannequin or something. Oooh, good call, thanks for posting this. I'm super vague on remembering early events at this point, it was like six years ago? Easy for chunks to slip away. Xealot posted:My wild speculation is that it's similar to the "dark forest" concept from Cixin Liu's books. Maybe the issue isn't that the MF *can't* reach out across the multiverse, but that it's so vast that Hawkins is a needle in a massive haystack without some big glowing sign pointing the way. Vecna can find Hawkins because he's from there, recognizes humanity and human consciousness because he is those things, even seeks them out. But maybe a massive sentient swarm of alien particles wouldn't ever have noticed Earth unless some stupid rear end humans knocked on the door first. Maybe when the gate collapsed, the MF *could've* tried to find Hawkins again, but it's like dialing random numbers until you get the same number you just hung up. I also like this, it makes it feel more to me like this was just some horrific random accident where 11 punched a hole and created a connection that really never should have existed and just completely hosed things up.
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Jun 6, 2022 22:30
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Problematic Pigeon posted:Verbally taunt This is from days ago but I just finished watching and I'm catching up with the thread but lol
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Jun 6, 2022 22:43
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I had totally forgotten there’s a part 2 and was wondering why nothing was wrapping up.
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Jun 6, 2022 23:20
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Remember kids, we need not fear our local Kreddy Frueger* so long as we remember our three B's: 1. Benzos 2. Buddies, and 3. Beats Also after a few years of weekly versus all at once releases I think this new Netflix model is my least favorite. It makes the first half just seem like a trailer for the end. *Pls no sue
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Jun 7, 2022 01:54
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Doesn't help that feels like the only "new" thing I learned is that Eleven's abusive childhood was lovely for a different reason and Monsters Inc principle states joy is more powerful than pain & fear, for her powers.
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Jun 7, 2022 03:02
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Problematic Pigeon posted:Verbally taunt thank you for the inspiration for this creation 
jisforjosh fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 7, 2022 |
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Jun 7, 2022 22:25
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I just found out they’re doing a fifth season as well? Most of the cast seems extremely checked out already, I thought S4 was wrapping things up.
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Jun 8, 2022 00:49
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General Dog posted:I just found out they’re doing a fifth season as well? Most of the cast seems extremely checked out already, I thought S4 was wrapping things up. The 5th season is allegedly the last
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Jun 8, 2022 00:59
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General Dog posted:I just found out they’re doing a fifth season as well? Most of the cast seems extremely checked out already, I thought S4 was wrapping things up. You mean the 4th season which is universally praised, and is arguably their best, with the entire cast giving killer performances? (Like, if you nominated this show for best drama Emmy, what's been better this year?) 5th Season is confirmed by them today to have a time jump (I'm guessing from freshman for the younger cast to seniors (3 years, and 1989 would track) and that they haven't started up the writers room yet. The Netflix exes cried at the pitch for season 5 as well. stoked for the final two.
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Jun 8, 2022 01:16
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LionArcher posted:The Netflix exes cried at the pitch for season 5 as well. 
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Jun 8, 2022 01:33
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LionArcher posted:You mean the 4th season which is universally praised, and is arguably their best, with the entire cast giving killer performances? (Like, if you nominated this show for best drama Emmy, what's been better this year?) Oh, my bad. To be honest I forget the events of each season about 2 days after I complete them. Really the only thing I remember before season 4 is that one episode where Eleven goes to the city and meets the bootleg X-Men.
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Jun 8, 2022 03:49
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General Dog posted:Oh, my bad. To be honest I forget the events of each season about 2 days after I complete them. Really the only thing I remember before season 4 is that one episode where Eleven goes to the city and meets the bootleg X-Men. the dollar-store Diamond Dogs
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Jun 8, 2022 03:51
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Economy-class Lost Boys.
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Jun 8, 2022 04:56
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Bargain Bin Streets of Rage Enemies
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Jun 8, 2022 05:21
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Rage Against Personal Hygiene.
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Jun 8, 2022 05:24
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I just finished re-watching season 2 and I don't get why everyone hates it so much. Sure its not as good as season 1 but I enjoyed it all the same.
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Jun 8, 2022 05:53
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I think they are all pretty good. Angry hop gets a little one note, but they are all good yarns
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Jun 8, 2022 06:01
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Season One was just a hell of a home run. Seasons 2 and 3 weren't really close for me. But I'm absolutely invested in 4 I can't wait to see where this is going.
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Jun 8, 2022 06:30
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LionArcher posted:You mean the 4th season which is universally praised, and is arguably their best, with the entire cast giving killer performances? (Like, if you nominated this show for best drama Emmy, what's been better this year?) Better Call Saul.
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Jun 8, 2022 09:46
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Avasculous posted:Yeah, I was thinking about this. I do not think they're aligned because in S2 and S3, the MF was desperate to defend the gate and neutralized when it was closed. Vecna can apparently act on the world without a gate and open new ones at will. But isn’t the mf in season 3 just a remote proxy of the actual MF in the upside down? I don’t think we’ve actually seen the actual creature just his shape. In season 2 he’s remotely controlling Will and the dogs using that smoke from LOST and in season 3 he uses billy to convert people and rats into a makeshift mindflayer unless you guys mean the soviets went into the upside down and captured the real deal
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Jun 8, 2022 10:42
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After the third season my interest in the new one was low and I hardly remembered many of the plot points, the first episode felt a little slow but the season quickly picked up pace and I think it's for certain much better than the second and third seasons, everyone is actually a lot more likable, Dustin and Steve have been great.
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Jun 8, 2022 12:09
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LionArcher posted:You mean the 4th season which is universally praised, and is arguably their best, with the entire cast giving killer performances? (Like, if you nominated this show for best drama Emmy, what's been better this year?) At this point in the race, Stranger Things and Better Call Saul are running neck and neck for me, with no other horses around. Dragonstoned posted:I just finished re-watching season 2 and I don't get why everyone hates it so much. Sure its not as good as season 1 but I enjoyed it all the same. I thought the Snow Ball dance at the school was one of the most satisfying season-ending episodes and, at the time, kind of wanted that to be the series finale. Bulky Bartokomous fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jun 8, 2022 |
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Jun 8, 2022 12:11
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Be prepared for Severance to take a few awards too.
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Jun 8, 2022 12:29
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Barry and Succession are gonna be up there as well.
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Jun 8, 2022 12:35
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Noob Saibot posted:But isn’t the mf in season 3 just a remote proxy of the actual MF in the upside down? I don’t think we’ve actually seen the actual creature just his shape. In season 2 he’s remotely controlling Will and the dogs using that smoke from LOST and in season 3 he uses billy to convert people and rats into a makeshift mindflayer unless you guys mean the soviets went into the upside down and captured the real deal The season 3 MF was a proxy, but it was dormant/dead at the start and only became active when the Soviets opened the gate again. The flesh avatar dropped dead the moment they closed it again. I'm guessing the Soviets have the real thing, because the MF was conspicuously absent both from the plot and the lengthy adventure in the Upside Down.
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Jun 8, 2022 15:46
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Avasculous posted:The season 3 MF was a proxy, but it was dormant/dead at the start and only became active when the Soviets opened the gate again. The flesh avatar dropped dead the moment they closed it again. If the Soviets do have the real thing locked up in Siberia or whatever, then I don't think the avatar would have dropped dead when they closed the gate because the MF would be in our world.
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Jun 8, 2022 16:01
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CainFortea posted:If the Soviets do have the real thing locked up in Siberia or whatever, then I don't think the avatar would have dropped dead when they closed the gate because the MF would be in our world. If the MF is linked to all other living things in the Upside Down and draws its power from there, then if its core was in our world and the gates shut, it’d be cut off from its power source. I imagine maintaining a physical form made out of dying tissue is energy intensive. If that’s true, then by opening gates in Hawkins, Vecna is creating pathways the MF could use to power itself up again. The Russians would have no way of knowing (except maybe spies) and might get caught entirely off-guard.
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Jun 8, 2022 16:24
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Wow, so good and so bad. I'm sure it's been covered to death by this point, but the episodes were too long and it would have been so easily fixed with an editing knife. Most of those plotlines were terrible to ho-hum, but the Hawkins/Vecna and Lab/Vecna ones were still good and elevated the season (more on my theories below). I imagine, maybe heard from critics the writers must have put in every idea they thought up and no one dared take anything out or even question the show at this point. I only have two really decent contributions to chime in with, one of which someone already got here and both are probably out on the internet, but I just have to clear my head of all the scattershot observations that have built up first. -Show seems back on track with its core themes of different ways of dealing with (potentially!*) traumatic events and why the people facing them end up the way they are. Better than back on track because the new (originally) human villain seems like he'll stay a villain. The show has a history of starting to build human villains (Steve, I guess, definitely Billy) then nerfing or redeeming them in various ways. I was a little miffed at S3 for redeeming Billy--I could have sworn I heard it happened because the actor asked for it--because it seemed like he had a decent explanation for being bad, but holy poo poo I'm not sore anymore because it served Max's storyline and e4 climax tremendously. As I understand it, Vecna's origin of being warped/traumatized by his powers showing him people at their worst since his early childhood means he won't be doing a heel-->face turn. I think there was a somewhat similar power for Brother Justin in Carnivale, but it's much better here. (More thoughts on Vecna's attack below.) *I say "potentially" because after someone on here pointed it out, S2 blew me away with how actually Will wasn't traumatized by the stuff that happened to him but Mike had been by 11's disappearance. That's when I started taking the show a bit more seriously, probing it more (I liked S1 as a word of mouth sensation but didn't pay it much mind), and made a point of following the SA ST threads. S3 let me down in this regard but S4 is bringing me back to it. -Show's also back on track with 11's arc, of how (or maybe if, but let's be honest just how) she'll cope with her traumatic past and become a regular person who can deal with living a regular life. I think that's what the show's really been about, not the Upside Down, which is cool to see and could get explained but doesn't absolutely need to be. That's not the point imo. Anyway, S3 seemed to lose focus on this (till the very end) by treating 11 as a regular well-adjusted girl, which I thought was jumping ahead to the endgame goal. Maybe that's why it seems we've got an extra trauma retconned in for her to get a bit of an easy out for, but with more of Brenner and also Owens on the show because of it, I'm not complaining. (The show's done some believable easy outs before, since getting 11 back cured Mike's PTSD at losing her, so I'm guessing with the whole Nina-theme 11 will be much better now that she learned she didn't kill the other kids.) -It was the best of posters, it was the worst of posters. I am completely behind the way the writers tip their hand at monster and season inspiration with the posters seen, and I'm taking the Little Shop of Horrors poster in Will's room as confirmation that Audrey 2 inspired the head of the Demogorgon. I read about how Jaws inspired how the Demogorgon worked, and while I saw it after the fact I never would have gotten it on my own. But if I remember right I thought that thing's head looked like Audrey 2 almost the minute I saw it. It would be funny/odd if anyone in that house recognized the resemblance, but I'd say that wouldn't happen to the actual Little Shop movie comes out later. When it comes to (maybe) telegraphing things with Will's Alan Turing poster project I'm not sure. When the show just does a well written and acted scene in S3 and people speculate in whatever direction, that's fine, it's not on the show and it's not wrong for people on twitter to care about things and speculate either. It's never wrong to just foreshadow either. And I'm not complaining about what goes on in Will and Mike's (precious few meaningful) scenes. But the Turing bit makes it all feel too cute or too clever or too much like a game of "Is this a Hint or Misdirection?" with Will's sexuality. Not to mention what happened to Turing is a bit much for what seems like a cheeky aside. Or maybe I just don't respect subtext enough; I don't how I missed all the Turning subtext when I read Neuromancer a couple decades ago. I don't know, maybe things will look different once the season's over and we see how it's all played. -Show's at it's best when it remixes or recapitulates itself, and that's not a dig or me being ironic. Max's exquisite Running Up That Hill supernatural music therapy scene where everyone tried to get through to her as they lose her in front of them is a bit of a redo of Will's exquisite Should I Stay or Should I Go supernatural music therapy scene in S2 where people try to get through to him as they lose him in front them, which is a redo of how both Will and the others used Should I Stay or Should I Go to reach across dimensions to each other in season 1. My favorite is 2 because, on top of other non-musical reasons, season 3 characteristically uses a lot of pricey visual effects while season 2 just had a handful of talented actors in a dark shed performing great material, sometimes in silence. Reminds of my favorite B5 episode, which is basically just Bruce Boxleitner in the dark with a guy who apparently was just an acting teacher (Intersections in Real Time). It's worth noting that in both S2 and S4 the characters are in different ways using, yes, nostalgia as a weapon against the forces of darkness. Don Draper couldn't have done it better. -I hope the Mind Flayer doesn't turn out to be just some creature Vecna created in the image of the spiders he loves. I love the MF design in season 2, but I do admit it is sort of spider-like. -I liked how the show dropped its normal routine of synth original music to use pipe organ/orchestral music for the main Vecna reveal. Assuming that was original, since it matched what was on screen rather well. -I hope I'm not the only one who noticed how spectral Billy is crying during his otherworldly confrontation with Max the way possessed Billy was crying in his hateful otherworldly confrontation with El in S3. -It was fun to have a villain identity mystery (four different identities technically) you could solve on your own before the big reveal at the end of 7. Nothing too hard and probably not that deep, I guess, but still fun, maybe rewarding. You could get it at the end of episode 4, I think. I got it after the end of e5, I think. It helped me to take it one episode a day--sleeping on things is your friend--and to pour over credits as the obsessive-compulsive I am. When someone called "friendly orderly" is given top billing in the end credits I think every regular-credits ep but the last, but also doesn't seem to be in most episodes, someone is telling you something. (I don't consider credit reading to be cheating. Your mileage may vary.) XboxPants posted:It's worse than that. I saw an article that pointed out that this season we're told that Mike comes to visit El and Will on March 22. In an earlier season we were told that... March 22 is actually Will's birthday. Second, main contribution: I'm 98-100% sure Vecna's attack is a Jungian shadow attack, or maybe I should say Ursula K. Le Guin shadow attack since the whole season might (no idea here) have been telegraphed by what part of that certain book A Wizard of Earthsea Suzie is reading in Season 3. Supposedly Le Guin wrote that without reading similar stuff in Jungian psychology, which I don't claim to understand too well but have seen pop up in fiction now and then. This suggests to me a) she's a loving genius, and b) she and Jung were both on to something. If it worked for Newton and Leibniz with calculus... The idea is basically what Vecna is preying on here: people have a shadow self they are denying and the right thing to do is confront it and admit that it is them, then merge back together; otherwise something...bad comes from denying the truth the shadow represents. Anyway, this feels like the root of Vecna's origin, always seeing the most hidden side of people, and also the theme of the season; I couldn't even skim the whole thread, but someone mentioned something Brenner said to El that is right up the alley of confronting the shadow. The proof this is what the attack is will be whether you can repel the attack by admitting what Vecna is saying about what you are hiding or running away from is true, or if the music defense is the only way. (Maybe Nancy tries this strategy at the start of e8 since I don't think we know her favorite music and they don't have it ready to go in the Upside Down there?) I actually like that there could be two completely different ways of stopping the monster's attack. It's got to be more than a telekenetic attack like he used on the kids at the lab, else there wouldn't be a confrontation before the kills. And didn't it seem like it took a long time to get to the killing stage with Max before the music? I think it's because, with the advantage of thinking she was going to die, she did exactly the right thing with that letter owning up to what she was hiding, and she only started to lose when she started to deny a part of her wanted Billy dead and she hated herself to death for it. I honestly thought Max might die in that scene because she was doing the right thing then the wrong one. Because I felt like I'd seen this before, not just in [the book mentioned in S3] A Wizard of Earthsea but also (hope this isn't spoilers) the video game Persona 4. (That game wears the stuff about shadows on its sleeve, not tucked into the final act.) The Persona games are all supposed to be about Jungian psychology, but that one was specifically about confronting one's shadow. If you broaden out the concept beyond being killed by one's shadow ([book character mentioned in S3]Ged and the Persona 4 characters are explicitly in danger of being possessed and/or, iirc, being brutally mangled by their shadows) then it's a dynamite writing technique you find a lot of places. The recent dynamite season of the dynamite show Undone tackled the same thing about a month ago using its own terms there it was an unintegrated puzzle piece. In the finale of Breaking Bad Walter White's final scene with Skyler can be seen as Walter White finally confronting his shadow. I don't think any of this means the Upside Down is like the Dry Land or some Jungian collective unconscious world. This shadow hook would define this season but not the whole show. But it's an easy formula for good drama, particularly in a fantasy setting. The only time I know of it not being used well was when it was sometimes-bungled in Persona 4, and then only with LGBT issues. Let that perhaps be a warning that Stranger Things should not broaden out the theme too widely this season, especially since it has a billion characters as it is. Or, since everyone's bound to end up in Hawkins by the end of it, maybe the show will get extremely ambitious with it. At least it makes things interesting. I mean, can you imagine what Brenner's shadow would be? Or Owens'? It took me till the end of the second episode to figure out that, in my theory anyway, Vecan's attack is a confrontation with one's shadow. Before that...drat, I was struggling a bit to still love and care about the show. At the Not-Skate-O-Rama I sometimes felt like I wanted someone to call Sludge Vohaul's Sequel Police to wrap the show up for running too long. I think this is the only truly new (new to the series, not original) element that's helping the show. And it's a worthwhile element. With so many viewers, Stranger Things doesn't need help competing for viewership with any show, except maybe the news or, God help us, Tucker Carlson. It's more a question of how the show will use it's soapbox. If the season ended up standing for "What's your favorite song?," that would be fun, I guess, but not something worth remember long or lauding. This shadow attack, which pokes the audience to take a look in the mirror, is, or will be if that's the angle it takes in the S4 conclusion. I really hope it does. OK that was a lot to vent, more like a full review. Way longer than I intended. Maybe should have waited till the season finished, but then no fun with predictions, plus that's almost a drat month away.
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Jun 9, 2022 09:14
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The big reveal is a Philip glass piece, they used it in Watchmen too.
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Jun 9, 2022 09:22
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Was there a mention that Michael Myers from Halloween is real (for them)? I could have sworn that there was a line like that in one of the earlier episodes, but I haven't had a chance to go back through again.
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Jun 9, 2022 17:16
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Robert Facepalmer posted:Was there a mention that Michael Myers from Halloween is real (for them)? Episode 2. Mentioned as a white mask killer. It was delivered more like an event that happened in a nearby small Indiana town (haddonfield) than a thing that happened in a movie.
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Jun 9, 2022 18:19
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Didn't Max go as Michael Myers for Halloween in S2?
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Jun 9, 2022 19:41
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I was rereading Planetary recently. It's a big old love letter to the history of fiction and especially comic books featuring super archaeologists digging up the remains of when Tarzan and Doc Savage fought off an invasion from an alternate universe Justice League, Godzillas, Hulks, ghost cops, etc. Their motto is "It's a strange world, let's keep it that way." I got to thinking about a TV adaptation and how great it would be have a Stranger Things episode of them rooting around Hawkins Lab with Judah Friedlander as older Dustin. I love weed. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jun 9, 2022 |
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Jun 9, 2022 20:00
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Harold Fjord posted:I love weed. Pass the Dutchie 'pon the left hand side...
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Jun 9, 2022 20:11
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A.o.D. posted:Episode 2. Mentioned as a white mask killer. It was delivered more like an event that happened in a nearby small Indiana town (haddonfield) than a thing that happened in a movie.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:30
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Just finished up watching the first half of this Season 4 and it was pretty good! Fun villain and mystery, the kids were all good. The Russia storyline is definitely the least interesting, but its not like terrible or anything. The episodes run a liiiitle bit long, but overall I enjoyed it 
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Jun 9, 2022 20:31
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Question, if the upside down is stuck at the point where 11 made contact then how did Joyce communicate with Will using the Christmas lights? They were put up after contact was made. Unless the theory is the upside down took the of of Hawkins and evolved with it until the gate was closed. But that didn’t happen until the end of S2, right? There should be more of Nancy’s diary entries if that were the case.
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Jun 9, 2022 22:26
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They did communicate in this very season using basically the same light trick.
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Jun 9, 2022 22:49
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