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Lib and let die posted:Screaming at literally anyone not in Congress is like choosing to jerk off instead of getting laid - what's the loving point?
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Jun 9, 2022 19:05
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Lib and let die posted:Screaming at literally anyone not in Congress is like choosing to jerk off instead of getting laid - what's the loving point? Sharon doesn't understand moé.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:06
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Kanos posted:Yeah, I don't think the argument people are making is that 1/6 didn't matter, it's that it's extremely difficult to care about the Democrats' response to it because they themselves don't really seem to care. It was an open violent coup, an attempt to derail the normal democratic proceedings of our government and kidnap/murder elected officials in the country's capitol, and the response has been turtle-paced and anemic. They impeached Trump in a week
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Jun 9, 2022 19:17
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And it was effectively performative since they knew there wouldn't be enough senators to convict.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:28
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DarkCrawler posted:Countless Americans, presumably with at least a shred of sympathy and empathy, choose not to do the same whenever they talk with a fellow American who values gun rights over the lives of children. I mean I don't understand that either but let's not pretend Kimmel is alone here. Being obsessed with yelling at the powerless in a country you don't live in is an incredibly weird hobby.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:29
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DarkCrawler posted:...sympathy and empathy? For the dead children? If you just want sympathy for dead children the republicans have a great handle on that
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Jun 9, 2022 19:33
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yronic heroism posted:They impeached Trump in a week Yeah then the Dems acquiesced to the trial occurring after Trump left office, allowing for the bullshit arguments that gave the GOP the outs they needed to not convict.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:34
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Abner Assington posted:And it was effectively performative since they knew there wouldn't be enough senators to convict. Be honest with yourself. Would you really refrain from criticism if they didn’t impeach for this reason? Really?
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Jun 9, 2022 19:34
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TheSpartacus posted:Yeah then the Dems acquiesced to the trial occurring after Trump left office, allowing for the bullshit arguments that gave the GOP the outs they needed to not convict. The Republicans wouldn’t have convicted anyway hth
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Jun 9, 2022 19:36
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TheSpartacus posted:Yeah then the Dems acquiesced to the trial occurring after Trump left office, allowing for the bullshit arguments that gave the GOP the outs they needed to not convict. They would have done the same thing no matter when it happened.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:36
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Oracle posted:They've apparently got a TV producer orchestrating the presentation of the evidence, so tonight might be the best night to tune in. Done https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4004152 Kind of a lazy C&P OP I posted but anyone feel free to help with it. Tonight probably isn't gonna be much. They're calling it a "table setter" so wheeeeeee....!
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Jun 9, 2022 19:40
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WorkerThread posted:So we've established that democrats don't care about 1/6. Republicans don't care about 1/6. Many posters in this thread do not care about 1/6. What are your reasons for caring about it, then? How would you convince me? Think of it as a dry run or a dress rehearsal, imagine how easily it could have gone far worse and what might happen next time since these people don't seem to have gone away anywhere and are, in fact, growing in numbers. Including within our halls of government. I personally think it was a flashpoint and will be looked at as a turning point in modern US history. How it's written about and described is going to be determined by who "wins" moving forward. I mean, we're all going to lose but I was referring to the whole "history is written by the winners" trope and if the people behind that insurrection get their way, I'm pretty sure what the school books printed in Texas are going to tell my kid about it. selec posted:
I believe it does. Unless you mean the hearing itself and not what unfolded 1/6 in which case I can see your point. It's gonna be a political TV commercial
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Jun 9, 2022 19:46
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BiggerBoat posted:Think of it as a dry run or a dress rehearsal, imagine how easily it could have gone far worse and what might happen next time since these people don't seem to have gone away anywhere and are, in fact, growing in numbers. Including within our halls of government. I personally think it was a flashpoint and will be looked at as a turning point in modern US history. Most (eventually) successful coups fail the first time around.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:49
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BiggerBoat posted:Think of it as a dry run or a dress rehearsal, imagine how easily it could have gone far worse and what might happen next time since these people don't seem to have gone away anywhere and are, in fact, growing in numbers. Including within our halls of government. I personally think it was a flashpoint and will be looked at as a turning point in modern US history. Whether or not the "coup" participants goes to jail has absolutely 0 impact on the price of my Keppra today, next month, next year, or five years from now.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:56
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nine-gear crow posted:Most (eventually) successful coups fail the first time around. Right. They WILL come armed next time and a lot of GOP congress people might just egg them on. People need to look at the cross tabs of the GOP base and their polling. From WAPO, January 2022 quote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/07/republicans-big-lie-trump/ These people honestly believe that Biden stole the election. A large plurality of half of our only viable political parties. One really has to get inside the head of a person who believes this, is probably heavily armed and what they might do about itbased on that perception of reality. Probably 1 out of every 5 republicans I meet - this includes co workers and cashiers and cops and my cable guy and my bank teller - suspects me of drinking adrenochrome from the blood of aborted fetuses under the orders of Lord Soros. Maybe not 1 out of 5 but even 1 out of 10 is too much when there are 100 people living on my loving street.
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Jun 9, 2022 19:59
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Gumball Gumption posted:Being obsessed with yelling at the powerless in a country you don't live in is an incredibly weird hobby. Doesn't change anything I said, though. I guess I am just sympathetic/empathetic enough to yell at someone who values their hobby or violent fantasies of taking on the government over you know, dead children? Even if they are "powerless" (though if they voted in order to keep the gun poo poo going, they had some power and they used it all to make their stance clear). EDIT: also, rural white voters literally have more power over this stuff and all stuff than the average voter, maybe you should note how they use that extra power. I figure if things were even, there would be more sensible gun laws. So your assertion that they have no power over here really doesn't bear true. I'd say they are in fact the most dedicated to opposing any sensible gun laws. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 9, 2022 |
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Jun 9, 2022 20:06
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Lib and let die posted:Whether or not the "coup" participants goes to jail has absolutely 0 impact on the price of my Keppra today, next month, next year, or five years from now. I know. My son and his mother have epilepsy too so I know about Keppra. It can still be meaningful and important without directly affecting your medical bills. I'm not trans or gay but the poo poo that's happening to people who are matters to me anyway. I'm not black but the concerns of BLM effect me. I'm not a migrant worker or locked up in a cage in Texas so that doesn't directly effect me. I'm not a homeless vet suffering from PTSD and don't know anyone who it is but it matters...so forth and so on. If the next fascist coup succeeds, I can promise you it will impact your access to epilepsy medicine.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:07
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Lib and let die posted:Whether or not the "coup" participants goes to jail has absolutely 0 impact on the price of my Keppra today, next month, next year, or five years from now. Here's a personal way it affects me. My wife requires a drug called methotrexate. Methotrexate is used as an immunosuppressant in combination with many other meds affecting immune response. If the GOP takes power either through an election or a coup, the drug will likely be banned because it is used as an abortion drug as well. If any medication you use can be used as a cudgel in some culture war it will be.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:well we all know the counter investigations are already planned Davis isn't likely going to be there once Republicans have the gavel; he's been redistricted into blood red 15th district in an impressive display of IL Dem gerrymandering. That district thinks he's a RINO and blood gargling psychopath whose husband's truck was spotted in DC on Jan. 6th Mary Miller will be there in his place.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:14
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BiggerBoat posted:I know. My son and his mother have epilepsy too so I know about Keppra. I mean, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this because you're in the camp of "holy poo poo this was a serious threat" while I'm in the camp of "are you loving kidding me a dude tased himself in the balls to death and another one had the gall to put their feet on Nancy's desk, I wish the worst day of my life were that traumatic" which I don't say to demean, but just point out that we're working out of two very different worldviews - I'm considerably more convinced that rather than seize power, the fascists are simply going to be given power out of a desire for the liberal democrats to not appear too far left (sound like a familiar precedent?).
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Jun 9, 2022 20:16
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BiggerBoat posted:I know. My son and his mother have epilepsy too so I know about Keppra. That could also happen just due to... republicans winning 'legitimately' (i.e. without overturning election results and just relying on voter suppression and the electoral college system). So Dems need to be educating people about poo poo like this. Lib and let die posted:I mean, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this because you're in the camp of "holy poo poo this was a serious threat" while I'm in the camp of "are you loving kidding me a dude tased himself in the balls to death and another one had the gall to put their feet on Nancy's desk, I wish the worst day of my life were that traumatic" which I don't say to demean, but just point out that we're working out of two very different worldviews - I'm considerably more convinced that rather than seize power, the fascists are simply going to be given power out of a desire for the liberal democrats to not appear too far left (sound like a familiar precedent?). Even accepting the premise that it wasn't a serious threat, I'd be 100% willing to act like it was anyway if it could help stop Republicans from taking power. In my opinion, the only salient question is whether it can help, or if it's actually just directing energy away from other strategies that could. Flying-PCP fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jun 9, 2022 |
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Jun 9, 2022 20:18
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Lib and let die posted:I mean, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this because you're in the camp of "holy poo poo this was a serious threat" while I'm in the camp of "are you loving kidding me a dude tased himself in the balls to death and another one had the gall to put their feet on Nancy's desk, I wish the worst day of my life were that traumatic" which I don't say to demean, but just point out that we're working out of two very different worldviews - I'm considerably more convinced that rather than seize power, the fascists are simply going to be given power out of a desire for the liberal democrats to not appear too far left (sound like a familiar precedent?). It's all good. Don't watch the hearings. Or don't care about 1/6. I'm not trying to convince you. Just mostly writing about why I personally think it's a big deal (the event itself not the hearings). I don't have an ax to grind with you about it or anyone else. I hope that moving forward you (and my son) are able to procure seizure medication. I'm being serious not snarky.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:22
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nine-gear crow posted:Most (eventually) successful coups fail the first time around. What about the unsuccessful ones
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Jun 9, 2022 20:26
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DarkCrawler posted:Doesn't change anything I said, though. I guess I am just sympathetic/empathetic enough to yell at someone who values their hobby or violent fantasies of taking on the government over you know, dead children? Even if they are "powerless" (though if they voted in order to keep the gun poo poo going, they had some power and they used it all to make their stance clear). America would be a different country if we were only blessed to have you live here. You could have saved us with your powerful empathy and good heart. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 9, 2022 20:31
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Flying-PCP posted:That could also happen just due to... republicans winning 'legitimately' (i.e. without overturning election results and just relying on voter suppression and the electoral college system). So Dems need to be educating people about poo poo like this. It's going to be the Democrats' lack of material action that ultimately drives enough liberal-to-left spectrum voters to stay home or vote for "anyone but a Democrat" purely out of spite and allow Republicans to victory stroll into all the halls of power. What have the state Democrats done - outside of "He's not DeSantis!" to make Crist an attractive option to someone like me? How is he anything other than - to borrow a term from Ron's own campaign against Nelson - an empty suit? Without looking it up, can you name a single decisive policy position Crist is going to take that would lower the cost of BB's son's or my own medicine? Like it or not, there is an overwhelming majority of eligible voters that are disenfranchised from both the democrats' party and/or electoralism in general that are in essence, the "not republican" version of the right-wing "I won't vote for anyone, of any party, that is pro-choice" voter and where the republicans lean into and leverage those kinds of voters and their energy, the democrats - even the "rowdiest", youngest idealists in the party tell you that actually you need to be more realistic and vote to compromise and put your single issues aside. BiggerBoat posted:It's all good. Don't watch the hearings. Or don't care about 1/6. I'm not trying to convince you. Just mostly writing about why I personally think it's a big deal (the event itself not the hearings). I don't have an ax to grind with you about it or anyone else. I hope that moving forward you (and my son) are able to procure seizure medication. I'm being serious not snarky. No animosity at all! I just think it's important that I try and communicate why I might disagree with a particular perspective.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:33
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:What about the unsuccessful ones Most unsuccessful coups are usually brutally put down by the governing force in power so that they don't get the chance to take another shot at it and succeed. See Erdogan in Turkey in 2016. That coup against him failed because he crushed it with a giant steamroller and then purged everyone who he thought might have looked a little bit coup-ey just for the hell of it to make sure.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:34
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I think 1/6 stuff is a distraction from the far more concerning matter of voter suppression and general radicalization of the police. The 1/6 stuff just seems ridiculous. For it to be a real 'coup' you need the security services, you need the bureaucracy, you need the people who hold the actual levers of power. It was a riot that only got out of control because the police were setup to fail and many were friendly / sympathetic to the rioters. But the police all got medals and no one who intentionally botched the planning and withheld intel has been held accountable. So sure, I guess it maybe rises to a clown shoes coup, but it's still a distraction. Where is the focus on the radicalization of the security forces in this country? The rank & file police are crazy conservative and I'm pretty sure groups like the border patrol are way worse. Using 1/6 as a way to draw attention to that issue would be great. But I doubt we'll even get a 'few bad apples' held accountable, let alone a systemic review. Where is the focus on what's going on with state legislatures and the mass disenfranchisement going on in this country? Packing and cracking makes voting your way out impossible because the politicians choose their voters. The complete take over of the judicial branch also paves the way for 'legal' election theft as they will sign off on votes only being advisory to the state legislatures. A couple of idiots thinking if they can interrupt the swearing in that Trump would still be president isn't a threat to American democracy. The courts and the inability to address the already unequal nature of representation in this country. A fascist take over is absolutely something to be terrified of because it's coming. It's just going to be carried out by the people who already have guns and decide the laws. 1/6 is just to distract people with Trump because there is no answer coming on as to how fix the judiciary or the cops.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:38
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Gumball Gumption posted:America would be a different country if we were only blessed to have you live here. You could have saved us with your powerful empathy and good heart. The funny thing is that it doesn't even require that much empathy to pick dead children over "I really like guns, enough to think dead children are worth it and actively vote to stop things that might prevent more dead children"- people. Now that we started talking about power though, isn't someone voting in a Senate election in say, Wyoming literally x times more powerful in regards to the sort of legislation (and through that, judiciary) than someone in a larger state?
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Jun 9, 2022 20:40
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Lib and let die posted:Like it or not, there is an overwhelming majority of eligible voters that are disenfranchised from both the democrats' party and/or electoralism in general that are in essence, the "not republican" version of the right-wing "I won't vote for anyone, of any party, that is pro-choice" voter and where the republicans lean into and leverage those kinds of voters and their energy, the democrats - even the "rowdiest", youngest idealists in the party tell you that actually you need to be more realistic and vote to compromise and put your single issues aside. Are pro-choice republican elected officials really a thing? I'm not up on all the state politics around the country to know about that. Generally though, it seems like republican politicians have little need to tell their base to vote red no matter who, because they're a far more cohesive bloc to begin with, and they already care a lot more about keeping the 'enemy' party out of office. There's a mutual trust that R voters will hold their nose and vote for a namby-pamby election-truth-denying RINO in a general election, and that said RINOs will still support plenty of cruelty towards the groups that are causing the decay of society or whatever.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:43
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BiggerBoat posted:Think of it as a dry run or a dress rehearsal, imagine how easily it could have gone far worse and what might happen next time since these people don't seem to have gone away anywhere and are, in fact, growing in numbers. Including within our halls of government. I personally think it was a flashpoint and will be looked at as a turning point in modern US history. Thanks for answering. But do you think that group of 1776 cosplayers could have seized the bureaucracy, military, intelligence apparatus, etc? Even if something truly wild happened, like a handful of legislators being killed, would that change the answer to that question? Note that nothing remotely close to that actually did happen.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:44
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selec posted:The difference is J6 is their problem, not really my business. Covid, I look out for myself. WorkerThread posted:So we've established that democrats don't care about 1/6. Republicans don't care about 1/6. Many posters in this thread do not care about 1/6. What are your reasons for caring about it, then? How would you convince me? We've established that posters in this thread take their lead from Democrats on policy. As that is the reason they have given for whether or not they should care about 1/6. I think taking your lead from Democrats on policy is a bad idea. But people are openly stating that as their reasoning. More than one. Seems bad.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:44
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Jaxyon posted:We've established that posters in this thread take their lead from Democrats on policy. As that is the reason they have given for whether or not they should care about 1/6. And I'm the one that gets accused of bad faith... The point they were trying to communicate is pretty clear. I also didn't say I took my lead from democrats. I asked you (in general) to explain why I should be concerned about 1/6, or at least why you think it's a big deal.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:48
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Lib and let die posted:It's going to be the Democrats' lack of material action that ultimately drives enough liberal-to-left spectrum voters to stay home or vote for "anyone but a Democrat" purely out of spite and allow Republicans to victory stroll into all the halls of power. Nothing at all and I agree with all of this. Crist is just one of those old guard "moderate Republicans" carrying the "I didn't Leave the GOP; They Left ME" bumper stickers around. So basically a centrist democrat right now and all he's got is not being a fascist. Problem is, a lot of people are totes coll with fascism right now and that number is growing. I honestly think that sooner rather than later, someone of great importance is going to get killed and the gun violence is doing to reach Someone Who Actually Matters instead of a dumb old school kid or some stupid teacher. (I'm being sarcastic here). The Kavanaugh thing could have been real bad and the backlash from it had it gone worse would have been incredible. Point being, and I hope I'm wrong, I think that eventually one of these bullets we love firing so much is going to hit Pelosi, McConnell, a SCOTUS judge...Pence...fill in the blank....because it almost doesn't matter who it is beyond the point that it WILL light a fuse if and when it happens on this powder keg of a nation. I'm pleasantly surprised that it hasn't happened yet but can't shake the feeling that it's coming in one form or another. Too many weapons and too many angry, unstable people. It wouldn't even entirely shock me to to see something like this staged Bob Roberts style either.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:49
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BiggerBoat posted:Nothing at all and I agree with all of this. All I can really say about Kav is that you and I have very different ideas about "worst case outcome."
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Jun 9, 2022 20:50
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WorkerThread posted:And I'm the one that gets accused of bad faith... The point they were trying to communicate is pretty clear. I also didn't say I took my lead from democrats. I asked you (in general) to explain why I should be concerned about 1/6, or at least why you think it's a big deal. I didn't say you took your lead from Democrats. My apologies if that was unclear. I said others did. Parakeet and Selec seemed to. If that wasn't the reason, and they were posting in good faith, why would they say that? Where did I state my own position on 1/6?
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Jun 9, 2022 20:51
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WorkerThread posted:Thanks for answering. But do you think that group of 1776 cosplayers could have seized the bureaucracy, military, intelligence apparatus, etc? Even if something truly wild happened, like a handful of legislators being killed, would that change the answer to that question? Note that nothing remotely close to that actually did happen. Not yet. Lib and let die posted:All I can really say about Kav is that you and I have very different ideas about "worst case outcome." I don't think that political assassinations are good.
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Jun 9, 2022 20:52
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Flying-PCP posted:Are pro-choice republican elected officials really a thing? I'm not up on all the state politics around the country to know about that. Generally though, it seems like republican politicians have little need to tell their base to vote red no matter who, because they're a far more cohesive bloc to begin with, and they already care a lot more about keeping the 'enemy' party out of office. There's a mutual trust that R voters will hold their nose and vote for a namby-pamby election-truth-denying RINO in a general election, and that said RINOs will still support plenty of cruelty towards the groups that are causing the decay of society or whatever. Oh yeah, there's some pro-choice elected Republicans, even at the national level. They're lying low right now, though, because the GOP base is actually super motivated to oust politicians that aren't seen as conservative enough.
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Jun 9, 2022 21:04
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In Lighter News: https://twitter.com/WGNNews/status/1534952243644059650
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Jun 9, 2022 21:06
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Here's a personal way it affects me. My wife requires a drug called methotrexate. Methotrexate is used as an immunosuppressant in combination with many other meds affecting immune response. If the GOP takes power either through an election or a coup, the drug will likely be banned because it is used as an abortion drug as well. Methotrexate is never going to be banned. If you're concerned that any drug that could be used as an abortion pill or whatever will be banned, then you're also worried about things like Estradiol, Warfarin, Tretinoin, Aspirin etc.
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Jun 9, 2022 21:07
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whiskey patrol posted:I think 1/6 stuff is a distraction from the far more concerning matter of voter suppression and general radicalization of the police. The 1/6 stuff just seems ridiculous. For it to be a real 'coup' you need the security services, you need the bureaucracy, you need the people who hold the actual levers of power. It was a riot that only got out of control because the police were setup to fail and many were friendly / sympathetic to the rioters. But the police all got medals and no one who intentionally botched the planning and withheld intel has been held accountable. So sure, I guess it maybe rises to a clown shoes coup, but it's still a distraction. Terrific post, and one that mirrors my thinking as well. Calling it a coup, or the greatest threat to democracy, not only ignores how acquiescent the capitol police were, or how impotent & amorphous the protestors were, but helps to criminalize any public protest that doesn't color within the lines from hereon. The Madison Capitol protests, the Occupy protests, even the protests at the SCOTUS homes could all be painted with the same broad brush of "insurrection" and "coup" that has been used for 1/6. Are we so jaded by a couple decades of the literal caging of protestors during political conventions and Occupy that anyone daring to breach the borders is "treasonous" or "seditious"? Those are terms I'd be more likely to use on behalf of elected officials who are elected on the basis of their fealty to corporations over voters than for the clowns at the Capitol on 1/6. Flying-PCP posted:Even accepting the premise that it wasn't a serious threat, I'd be 100% willing to act like it was anyway if it could help stop Republicans from taking power. In my opinion, the only salient question is whether it can help, or if it's actually just directing energy away from other strategies that could. This is the brutally honest take, and the one that probably comes closest to explaining why we're having the primetime hearings, as well as the other pageantry like Hollywood-produced recap videos. And, ironically, I think that Dems would be more persuasive by saying so rather than pretending 1/6 was on par with 9/11.
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Jun 9, 2022 21:09
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