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GABA ghoul posted:That's a different argument than "Germany is the only country that is holding back on heavy weapons, and it's probably for nefarious reasons!" I had said that whether or not such reasons exist doesn't matter. People and countries can be useful idiots. People and countries can do very bad things without being aware that they're doing them. Entire tragedies have been written about this. It's also not about Germany being the only unhelpful country. You are building ridiculous strawmen. GABA ghoul posted:and one I don't really feel like arguing against. For the record, I do not agree with German policy ... but in the face of legitimate criticism, you deflect it with strawmen and defend it 100%. GABA ghoul posted:From the very little information we got I don't know if's a lovely excuses. I have worked adjacent to mechanical engineering software development before (safety critical high voltage/radiation stuff) and if someone told me they want to plan, develop and deploy major new features in just three months I would probably pity them. It might be an excuse or it might not be. The question why nobody did a feasible check before promising the systems for this summer is certainly valid criticism. Then simply don't make promises as a country. You're portraying people that ask Germany to keep its promises as unreasonable and point to very_serious_responsible_reasoning.txt, which is beside the point. Of course it takes a while to write or maintain software. The fundamental problem is that Germany has successfully maneuvered itself over decades into a situation where its military is useless, the equipment is failing or unusable, everything needs 23474899 permissions from other countries, software updates and whatnot. This is not something that happened by accident or overnight. Whether it's "nefarious" or whatever is irrelevant, but it's certainly convenient to hide behind. And it's certainly not a good look. The reason why using all this as an excuse stinks is that it's of Germany's own making and you're shifting the blame to the people criticizing Germany for this.
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Jun 11, 2022 02:29
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.   
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Jun 11, 2022 02:46
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Mans posted:Have all nations that started a war equivalent to or longer than three months which have caused the death equal or over four thousand civilians turned into "worldwide" pariahs? I too am happy we are doing the right thing this time around, and it's a marked moral improvement!
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Jun 11, 2022 02:50
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Lol we let Hitler slip through the noose until he invaded Poland. And that was two countries later. So yes we did the right thing this time . However more arty is needed. And preferably AC-130s. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 02:53
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Lol we let Hitler slip through the noose until he invaded Poland. *cough*Chechnya&Georgia*cough*
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Jun 11, 2022 03:01
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Ikasuhito posted:*cough*Chechnya&Georgia*cough* Exactly. Russia also already invaded Ukraine. It just paused the line of contact for several years.
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Jun 11, 2022 03:12
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Losses of DNR during this conflict according to info published by DNR ombudsman.  2057 dead 8526 wounded 10583 total losses of the above, that is ~50% of the pre-war DNR army (20k).
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Jun 11, 2022 05:50
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Wow... they've gotten hosed up huh?
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Jun 11, 2022 07:58
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Charlotte Hornets posted:Losses of DNR during this conflict according to info published by DNR ombudsman. edit for clarity: the ones with 1.3, 6.4 and 7.7 as the data for the 24th Feb. edit2: and what is the last column? [I think I worked it out - Dead to Wounded ratio...] Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 08:08
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Cable Guy posted:What is the second set of columns with the same sub-headings as the first set? Second column is just daily average for the week
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Jun 11, 2022 08:14
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mobby_6kl posted:Ukrainian pilots have been training in the US and other NATO countries for years too: https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-mig-29-pilot-interview/ (sorry it's the chuddy coffee company apparently but that's what I could find now). Doesn't say explicitly but presumably on NATO aircraft, no way they'd ferry the MiGs around for that purpose. USA bought a couple dozen of MiG-29's in the 1990's to prevent them going to Iran. At least a few are still operational as exercise foes.
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Jun 11, 2022 08:22
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Vox Nihili posted:A bunch of European countries have military capabilities that functionally round down to zero. Ukraine has spent 7 years bolstering its strength and has been able to mobilize forces well beyond what a country like Germany could scrape together today. Yes, we on the eastern front would like some depth in our defences please.
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Jun 11, 2022 08:35
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Charlotte Hornets posted:Second column is just daily average for the week ==== Talking with a friend about the grain thefts by Russia and he suggested that maybe they were doing it as a hedge against sanctions... Sort of a "Oh... the west is experiencing shortages...? You know we have all this wheat in silos... Such a shame we can't sell it..." Thoughts?
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Jun 11, 2022 08:44
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Charlotte Hornets posted:Losses of DNR during this conflict according to info published by DNR ombudsman. Good thing you geniuses ran to big brother protector Russia to keep you safe and not sacrifice you like pawns
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Jun 11, 2022 09:16
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Cable Guy posted:Thanks They're not stockpiling the stolen grain, but shipping it off to mediterranean ports for sale. The west also isn't experiencing grain shortages - the stalled / lost / destroyed exports from Ukraine will cause shortages in the Middle East and Africa. Europe and the US are net exporters of grain. For goods where shortages are a problem for the west, the result is a price increase rather than a shortfall - but that means the buyers who had the least ability to pay more will be suffering that shortfall. Russia is just taking the grain because it is easy to sell, will spoil and taking it hurts Ukraine. No cunning master plan to it.
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Jun 11, 2022 09:18
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steinrokkan posted:Good thing you geniuses ran to big brother protector Russia to keep you safe and not sacrifice you like pawns The problem with arms-length puppet states is that you run the risk that someone who does not give a gently caress will just blow your OPSEC.
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Jun 11, 2022 10:52
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Alchenar posted:The problem with arms-length puppet states is that you run the risk that someone who does not give a gently caress will just blow your OPSEC. I think a bigger risk than bad OPSEC is that your Russian slave drivers will have you deliberately killed by using you as ablative armour for their own units
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Jun 11, 2022 11:06
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steinrokkan posted:I think a bigger risk than bad OPSEC is that your Russian slave drivers will have you deliberately killed by using you as ablative armour for their own units more like ablyative armor joke stolen from the title of a different thread, sorry e: for more content, here's a recent Ukrainian anti-war song which I liked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P8QJ-x68PI And some nerds a while back made some kind of rock version of this folk song, heh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTKjf32bW60 jaete fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 11:13
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Cable Guy posted:Thanks I don't think they are trying to *directly* pressure the West. Yes there will be food price rises and that will have some domestic political implications (inflation/cost of living), but Western nations can basically secure their own food supplies and there is no genuine risk of famine in Europe. I do however think that they are deliberately trying to manufacture food shortages, price increases and hunger across the developing world, specifically in the Middle East and Africa - to *indirectly* pressure the West. The fallout from this would be political unrest (including destabilisation, violence and rioting in several fragile states - Lebanon, Egypt and several West/Central African states are already experiencing challenges) and potential famine. Why would they do this? To put indirect pressure on the West. Even if you are cynical and think Western governments don't give a poo poo if brown people starve, it is in their interest to try to maintain stability in those regions, and so divert food aid and $. It will also eat into their political bandwidth and potentially make them tire of the conflict sooner. Many developing country governments will also start speaking up and demanding an immediate end to the war - even if that means Ukraine capitulating - so the grain can start flowing again. No doubt there are also many RT stories and talking heads lined up and ready to say that it is all the fault of Western Sanctions, and if only they weren't so Russiaphobic and agreed to lift them and sign over a few minor Ukrainian provinces the grain would flow again, as Russia is desperate to avoid human suffering. Its utter lies of course - Russia is literally blockading the ports and stealing the supplies - but many will repeat it. This would obviously represent a humanitarian catastrophe, and horrendously cynical, and potentially a form of genocide in itself (just my opinion - I'm not really qualified to make that call). Russia elites don't give a poo poo - they are still perfectly happy to use food and hunger as a weapon - even on people not directly involved in their war. Tigey fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 12:31
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Alleged cholera outbreak in Mariupol. https://twitter.com/the_ins_ru/status/1535288002582282243
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Jun 11, 2022 12:42
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PederP posted:They're not stockpiling the stolen grain, but shipping it off to mediterranean ports for sale. The west also isn't experiencing grain shortages - the stalled / lost / destroyed exports from Ukraine will cause shortages in the Middle East and Africa. Europe and the US are net exporters of grain. For goods where shortages are a problem for the west, the result is a price increase rather than a shortfall - but that means the buyers who had the least ability to pay more will be suffering that shortfall. Well, there are some food product shortages in Europe, just not grain. In France for example, they basically don't have mustard anymore. For some reason everywhere else I've been seems to still have mustard, just not French grocery stores. I think some other products that use sunflower oil are also missing, but so far the only bare shelves I've noticed have been mustard, and only in France. Although maybe only because the mustard section in France is often so large that it's an obvious gap. E: Photo;  Vvvv: the printed out page there in the photo specifically blames it on Ukraine and exclusively mentions sunflower oil. I’m not a mustard expert, maybe they’re just full of poo poo and blaming everything on the Ukraine war. Saladman fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 12:49
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Mustard shortage is due to lack of mustard seeds - drought in Canada, weak harvest season in France, and war in Ukraine all play into that.
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Jun 11, 2022 12:54
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This was supposed to be a two week war. Everything that is happening is people on all sides scrambling with the unplanned knock-on consequences of of the conflict running on longer than expected.
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Jun 11, 2022 12:57
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Actually, do 76 series landcruisers have ABS? I guess they have a drivers side airbag but that would be about it. We are buy them new for work and they certainly don't have GPS or ESP hahaha. In general I love reactive/passive systems (ped detection autobrake, abs, pretensioners, ESP, etc) and abhor the active stuff, it just makes people pay less attention. You're at the wheel, drive the loving thing.
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Jun 11, 2022 13:25
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Seed oil shelves in German supermarkets have been empty ever since this started. Some of it is hoarding but presumably not all, don't think the COVID noodle and toilet paper shortage lasted quite this long
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Jun 11, 2022 13:26
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aphid_licker posted:Seed oil shelves in German supermarkets have been empty ever since this started. Some of it is hoarding but presumably not all, don't think the COVID noodle and toilet paper shortage lasted quite this long Oh well. Back to frying everything in fat. Yummy, yummy pork fat. I talked to my father, who works for a very large German company, the other day. As of two weeks ago, they cut all communication with coworkers within Russia. Even if they are still on the payroll, all messages are to be referred to dept. heads, who will do ??? with them. Work had ended within the RF more than two months ago and now they are running into a quarterly product release which will greatly effect interoperability with legacy systems. Once this is over, any Russian company will have to re-buy the PLM software. It goes without saying that this will be horrendously expensive, at an average of $55K for each license ($35k base + modules, both standard and custom) Most of the automation, PLM, and production people have already relocated to Poland, Romania, and Germany. I guess the sales and tech support staff got left behind. Not much use for them outside RF itself. My dad knew the sales guys on a first name basis from the time when he was also the training department, two acquisitions ago. Poor (I poo poo you not) Ivan, Ivan, and Ivan.
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Jun 11, 2022 14:38
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madeintaipei posted:Oh well. Back to frying everything in fat. Yummy, yummy pork fat. This is what happened at my company before the companies were split — seems likely in your father’s case, too.
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Jun 11, 2022 15:34
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fatherboxx posted:Opposition Block had six whole deputies in the current Rada, they werent in position to contest any reforms. It's interesting how many people lost the party they voted for as "pro russian quisling" when you look at how much of the opposition to the current government was banned + the numbers that the Ukrainian communist party drew in the last election they had before the new government found them too offensive to their new vision and the millions of Ukrainians who have spent eight years enduring in the separatist regions. But maybe the majority of Ukrainians are just ungrateful Quislings in your eyes, seeing as how little outside of the ruling party still have a legal voice in parliament. But no matter, the still legal parties are eager to have your wishes come true : they receive more artillery and eliminate those pesky Soviet relics like labor rights! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 11, 2022 15:51
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Mans posted:It's interesting how many people lost the party they voted for as "pro russian quisling" when you look at how much of the opposition to the current government was banned + the numbers that the Ukrainian communist party drew in the last election they had before the new government found them too offensive to their new vision and the millions of Ukrainians who have spent eight years enduring in the separatist regions. I see the Nazis have become even less coherent in the past 100 days, impressive what copium does to one's brain. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 11, 2022 16:03
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Those Leopard 2A4s aren't really good for much other than as static gun emplacements or the most reserve of armored formations. It's the same type of armor that the proved extremely vulnerable when deployed by the Turkish military. While it sucks that Germany is blocking deliveries (possibly because of some self-perceived taboo against German-produced panzers fighting Russian units in that particular theatre of war) - these vehicles are likely much less desired than howitzers, MLRS and SPGs. MBTs proved a key part of the Chernihiv defense, so it's not like they're useless in a defensive role, and they'd also provide yet another stepping stone towards NATO-compatibility. But in the grand scheme of things there are far more important deliveries to focus on - namely artillery, munitions, fuel and basic infantry equipment. Not to mention training specialists (there's a big bottleneck still - with waiting lists and shortened training periods to compensate).
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Jun 11, 2022 16:19
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To me what’s interesting about the Leopard bit is the downthread reference to Germans supposedly meeting Spanish request with a measure of scorn or derision, as well as the revival of (presumably still fictional) “informal agreement” about supplying “modern systems” to Ukraine.
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Jun 11, 2022 16:54
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cinci zoo sniper posted:To me what’s interesting about the Leopard bit is the downthread reference to Germans supposedly meeting Spanish request with a measure of scorn or derision, as well as the revival of (presumably still fictional) “informal agreement” about supplying “modern systems” to Ukraine. I fixated more on the specifics of 'western tanks' and read that as 'german panzers'. And for what it is worth (including that I disagree) there is some merit to the position that German MBTs fighting Russia would immediately be weaponized by Russian propaganda and could erode public support. I have a hypothesis a lot of the 'we agreed not to supply western heavy vehicles' vs 'no - we did not - and many countries have already supplied just that' to be involve loose interpretation of more specific statement made at internal meetings and retold via multiple people. Because I could easily see Germany asking allies to avoid sending German tanks to help Ukraine (because of the imagery it evokes), and being met with agreement. But this might mean 'no top-of-line Leopard MBTs' to some people and 'no German armored vehicles at all' to others. It's not unheard of for politicians to have a lot of trouble differentiating between various type of armored vehicles - and unwittingly messing up things by not understanding the nuances of the Tank alignment chart. If German officials did indeed get informal support for 'keine Deutsches Panzer im richtung Russland!', then it does make some sense why a Spanish plan to send Leopard 2A4s would anger Germany and be seen as a violation of that backroom dealing. I actually do think Germany wants Ukraine to win this and they also want to support Ukraine with what they need. They're just being typically German and thus compulsively formal about the process and paperwork, all while fighting anxiety over the escalated security situation and departure from near-pacifism, having a massive taboo against sending panzers towards Russia and fighting existential fear at a post-war status quo where cheap gas isn't being pumped into the hungry belly of German industry. I am no fan of Scholz and the German political establishment - except perhaps pleasantly surprised by the greens, who have shown themselves to be more than just a one-trick pony focusing on environmental/climate issues - but I do think Germany is being maligned as far more pro-Russia than is actually the case. Would I like them to do more? YES. Do I think they have an unfortunate bias towards wishful thinking and wringing their hands about the sheer unpleasantness of it all? YES. Do I want German leadership of the EU? Absolutely not. As much as this timid, obtuse and ponderous German is frustrating - I'd rather not see a Germany with ambitions for European leadership on my southern border. Just like how I accept that the EU will always have a bit of a pro-German bias in regards to the economy - a stable German economy means better sleep for German neighbors. But I'd very much like (current regime) Russian influence on Germany to go away, so if German-Russian relations go bad in the aftermath of this, that is not a bad thing. Until Russia has a less subversive government - they are really bad influence on Germany, and we should help keep them at arms length.
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Jun 11, 2022 17:23
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You have a good point - this could be a game of broken telephone where “no German tanks in Ukraine” has morphed into “no western combat machinery for Ukraine”. The former would be a stance that I would be glad to acknowledge, so long as it is communicated plainly and in public - I wouldn’t be happy with it, but it would set out clear expectations, and move the conversation forward. I take much more issue with German words than actions here, besides the persona of Scholz individually.
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Jun 11, 2022 17:31
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Germany is supposedly actually sending the Pz2000 SPGs soon and the SPAA Gepards (of dubious usefulness) eventually, so it's certainly not "no German things that can be confused for tanks".
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Jun 11, 2022 17:42
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Re: German tanks for Ukraine I personally don't buy into the argument that good people shouldn't do a given thing because the fascist opposition will grab onto it and turn it into propaganda. People say the same thing about the Trump faction in the Republican Party in the US (which, alas, is most of it these days). The problem is that fascist ideology places no value in facts or truth, and thus will make things up to suit its purposes anyways. You're not giving fascists any ammunition by doing something good which credulous people could be spun into believing was something evil. Fascists will just lie and make up whatever stories they want to make anything you do seem evil. Therefore, you might as well just do good things. Edit: OddObserver posted:Germany is supposedly actually sending the Pz2000 SPGs soon and the SPAA Gepards (of dubious usefulness) eventually, so it's certainly not "no German things that can be confused for tanks". I'll believe it when I see it.
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Jun 11, 2022 18:01
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Ynglaur posted:I'll believe it when I see it. We are all in luck on this one - the claimed delivery date is June 22, as of yesterday, per Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany. https://nv.ua/ukr/world/geopolitics/chomu-sholc-ne-daye-ukrajini-vazhku-zbroyu-andriy-melnik-interv-yu-nv-novini-ukrajini-50248995.html
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Jun 11, 2022 18:07
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OddObserver posted:Germany is supposedly actually sending the Pz2000 SPGs soon and the SPAA Gepards (of dubious usefulness) eventually, so it's certainly not "no German things that can be confused for tanks". The SPGs were something the US adminstration basically blackmailed the German goverment to do or else they would have very publicly embarrassed the SPD defense minister shortly before important regional elections and it's almost a homeopathic dosis of SPGs (7). cinci zoo sniper posted:You have a good point - this could be a game of broken telephone where “no German tanks in Ukraine” has morphed into “no western combat machinery for Ukraine”. The former would be a stance that I would be glad to acknowledge, so long as it is communicated plainly and in public - I wouldn’t be happy with it, but it would set out clear expectations, and move the conversation forward. I take much more issue with German words than actions here, besides the persona of Scholz individually. Those two statements are not that different as there are few western tanks that don't need a German export license, especially in Europe. I read the reaction to the Spanish rumor/proposal from the German government as basically "if you try to push us on this issue, we will make you regret it." GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 18:16
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GaussianCopula posted:Those two statements are not that different as there are few western tanks that don't need a German export license, especially in Europe. Tanks sure, but that would’ve still left channels open for other vehicles - IFVs, SPGs, and whatnot. Could be another leg of the “broken telephone” in that hypothetical, where tanks at some point did undergo rhetorical transformation from battle tanks to political tanks. On that note, it would be kind-of funny if Ukraine, having received PzH.2000s from Germany, would begin to claim that every single alleged general kill or other high value strike was made possible by German artillery, as a subtle dig back at Scholz’s handwringing.
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Jun 11, 2022 18:21
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Ynglaur posted:Re: German tanks for Ukraine You can still make it easier for them by playing into their rhetoric. Fascists will certainly lie and distort at-will, but they're also highly opportunistic, but the potential propaganda value of something isn't static. Now in this particular case, I certainly don't think a "no german panzers" policy is a good idea, I'm just saying it is a more reasonable policy than "no western heavy/modern vehicles". But with the role of Nazis and Germany in the mythology of the Russian jingoism it does make a difference if Ukraine is being given T-72s or Leopard 2A4s. The former has a propaganda value of "hah! see they're being given Russian weapons by the west because those are the best!", but you can't really evoke the same imagery of resurgent Teutonic aggression being integral to Ukraine's military efforts from German helmets and RPGs as you can from legit German MBTs with Ukrainian flags pointed them. It is not new that Franco-German leaders bumble on the international stage and make everyone angry, but I wish they'd be less vague in their communication and be darned sure the right messages are being voiced to the various media, so that messages aimed at specific audiences don't end up making them look much worse than they are. I personally am very much in the camp of direct military intervention, so it's not like I'm applauding the current policies - I'm just saying they're not as clear cut pro-Russian as many make them out to be. German and France governments are acting mostly in line with expectations - and there is a real danger (not on this forum, but in the general information war) that bad faith agents and Russian operatives manage to create internal dissent among pro-Ukrainian nations by amplifying messages of disunity beyond what is reality. I think Germany and France are both victims of such efforts.
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Jun 11, 2022 18:27
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