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BrainDance posted:Anyone here know Ancient Greek? Checked it out in Greek and it was "translated" as "You must stand up, not be held up."
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Jun 13, 2022 19:08
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:There's multiple smallpox blanket incidents. It was a thing colonial militaries just loving did in North America. The specific one that's now famous is famous because self-loathing north american white people think google and reading half of Capital Volume 1 makes them One Of The Good Ones and picked it up from twitter leftists. sir this is a thermopolium
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Jun 13, 2022 19:23
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Tulip posted:...is "we want this to be durable across repeated copying" insufficient? Or at least that goat-loving was on lawmakers' minds.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:35
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Given how bizarrely detached from reality people’s perception of crime is I don’t know if that is a 100% accurate inference.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:42
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euphronius posted:Given how bizarrely detached from reality people’s perception of crime is I don’t know if that is a 100% accurate inference.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:42
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Nessus posted:I think this is the theory by which if there are numerous laws specifically proscribing against goat-loving, this is evidence that a lot of goat-loving was going on. it's a cute theory that has a lot of empirical contradiction, for example many societies have laws against witchcraft (my favorite is Sumeria where it's one of the most durable elements of the civilization but to my knowledge 0 trials), the US has a whole discourse around poisoned halloween candy from strangers that is based on a fear of it being a widespread practice but the only actual incident was a dad poisoning his kid, the TSA shoe rule is based on a vector for bombing a plane that cannot physically work, and so on. I think in the case of the vedas there just isn't really any mystery: it's an oral tradition that is taught to children from a young age. Children do not natively copy long poems into their memory without modification, because that's boring and they're kids. If your culture values an oral tradition being stable over long periods of time, you're going to have to make that explicit because there's a pretty built-in source of decay.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:01
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The TSA shoe rule is because someone tried it
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Jun 13, 2022 20:05
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Tunicate posted:The TSA shoe rule is because someone tried it Yeah, once, which speaks more to Tulip's point. The point kaschei was trying to make is fine, but I do agree with Tulip that there need not be any more motivation in stressing the importance of accuracy in preserving an oral tradition than just, you know, getting it right. Especially when we're talking about religion and cosmology as opposed to, say, goat loving.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:18
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I think you can infer that there was a societal worry--possibly a manufactured one! by a law being passed, but yeah not much else I suspect you might be able to infer something being a continued problem for the state by laws being repeatedly passed trying to rein it in
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Jun 13, 2022 20:20
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The idea of an ongoing moral panic that someone might be loving a goat is very funny.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:22
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Grand Fromage posted:The idea of an ongoing moral panic that someone might be loving a goat is very funny.  (not totally accurate: the law also banned sex with mules and horses, but at an explicitly lower penalty)
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Jun 13, 2022 20:32
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Grand Fromage posted:The idea of an ongoing moral panic that someone might be loving a goat is very funny. Ashoka, Major Pillar Edict 5 posted:This rescript on morality has been caused to be written by Devanampriya Priyadarsin. Here no living being must be killed and sacrificed. And also no goat loving must be held. For king Devanampriya Priyadarsin sees much evil in goat loving. And there are also some goat fuckings which are considered meritorious by king Devanampriya Priyadarsin. Formerly in the kitchen of king Devanampriya Priyadarsin many hundred thousands of animals were hosed daily for the sake of cum. But now, when this rescript on morality is caused to be written, then only three animals are being hosed (daily), (viz.) two goats (and) one sheep, but even this sheep not regularly. But even these three animals shall not be hosed (in future). Judgy Fucker fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 20:35
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Roman/ancient history: But even these three animals shall not be hosed (in future)
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Jun 13, 2022 20:49
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Im.a fan of "for the sake of cum"
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Jun 13, 2022 22:20
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All these rules telling me not to gently caress goats makes me want to… go take a cold shower.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:21
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If you outlaw goatfucking only outlaws will gently caress goats.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:35
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Yeah, this is why I had my caveat there that it's something on lawmakers' minds in whatever form. Though you also have survivorship bias; the Rigellian scavengers of Earth could find the comprehensive works of L. Ron Hubbard, for instance, which would probably inform their theories of hunam society and culture.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:48
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Tulip posted:
My random baseless conjecture here is that horses and mules were more expensive animals, and this carve-out in the law was intended to make sure rich sickos got lesser punishments.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:57
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Medenmath posted:My random baseless conjecture here is that horses and mules were more expensive animals, and this carve-out in the law was intended to make sure rich sickos got lesser punishments. Not a bad theory! Popular. Unfortunately we do not have any surviving works of Hittite legal philosophy that provide any insight, so for the time being it's going to be a mystery.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:58
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Would people living in that time had made such a big difference between human and animal as we modern people do?
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Jun 14, 2022 17:58
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Fish of hemp posted:Would people living in that time had made such a big difference between human and animal as we modern people do? They might have made more? That's not a linear trend, it's always very complicated, plus its not like modern peoples are in firm agreement about how big a difference people make between humans and animals (there was actually a recently published piece of Chinese crankery that posited that European philosophy has never had a firm division between humans and animals, always on a continuum of dignity. Would have been news to Descartes!). I am not sure we have any unified Hittite animal rights philosophy or anything like that surviving. I'd be skeptical of any particular claim made even if we had firm evidence because the evidence we do have about Hittite attitudes were that they were exceptionally pluralistic. I will say that the coolest thing about hittite law is that, by default, local law trumped imperial law. So like, in the case of a murder, you would very likely be judged according to local law that preceded Hittite conquest. Which in most things is the majority of laws because we're talking bout an Empire that conquered and integrated a variety of kingdoms. How we know this is largely because we know the one major exception to this: incest. The Hittites hated incest, and there was an empire-wide death penalty for incest. It's basically the only way in which the Hittites really, truly interfered with the governments of their imperial clients. Note that they did not generally have a death penalty for murder so this was something they found REALLY offensive.
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Jun 14, 2022 18:09
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That's one of the things about Gilgamesh's story is Enkidu living like an animal and then being civilized
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Jun 14, 2022 18:10
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Gaius Marius posted:That's one of the things about Gilgamesh's story is Enkidu living like an animal and then being civilized And IIRC becoming civilized is not just learning language and putting on clothes. The process of civilization causes his animal friends to reject him.
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Jun 14, 2022 18:42
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Gaius Marius posted:That's one of the things about Gilgamesh's story is Enkidu living like an animal and then being civilized Also related to the story of the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve are one with nature, naked and unashamed, until they eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Suddenly they understand morality and sin and must be cast out of the garden because now they are Human, separate from nature.
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Jun 14, 2022 18:49
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Gaius Marius posted:That's one of the things about Gilgamesh's story is Enkidu living like an animal and then being civilized Gilgamesh is a cool weird story imo
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Jun 14, 2022 18:53
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Smiling Knight posted:And IIRC becoming civilized is not just learning language and putting on clothes. The process of civilization causes his animal friends to reject him. Specifically he loses his connection to the animals because he had sex with a woman. THEN he goes back to her and she tells him “wearing clothes and pastoralism are good actually”
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Jun 14, 2022 18:56
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wow nature is an incel discord
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Jun 14, 2022 19:00
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the virgin nature and the chad civilization
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Jun 14, 2022 19:11
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Jazerus posted:the virgin nature and the chad civilization Literally true 
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Jun 14, 2022 19:16
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It's been 20 years since I read gilgamesh but didn't they gently caress for a week straight? What I'm saying isTulip posted:Gilgamesh is a cool weird story imo
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Jun 14, 2022 20:05
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Omnomnomnivore posted:It's been 20 years since I read gilgamesh but didn't they gently caress for a week straight? What I'm saying is Yeah I think it's like a week straight and then they say"his legs were sore and he couldn't run." Which, yeah...
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Jun 14, 2022 20:49
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Tunicate posted:The TSA shoe rule is because someone tried it
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Jun 14, 2022 21:06
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The TSA has never actually stopped anyone. They're all foiled before or after going through security never by security itself because it's all just a very expensive play to make people feel flying is safer. Airport security is pretty good at confiscating nail clippers and keyrings that are vaguely shaped like a gun or grenade.
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Jun 15, 2022 02:05
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TSA catches passengers trying to bring loaded handguns onto air planes all the time. In 2020 they seized 3,300 firearms, and they considered that a low year because of the pandemic (though the incidence rate doubled, presumably because covid flyers also tended to be gun nuts). Make of that what you will.
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Jun 15, 2022 02:22
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PeterCat posted:Yeah I think it's like a week straight and then they say"his legs were sore and he couldn't run." Dudes rock.
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Jun 16, 2022 01:43
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Tulip posted:
this inspired some questions and now I want to know, does anyone have some good recommendations on how and by who ancient laws were enforced? I know that the police as we think of them are an extremely modern thing so I'm kind of looking for information on the systems that existed before that basically.
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Jun 16, 2022 02:34
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Benagain posted:this inspired some questions and now I want to know, does anyone have some good recommendations on how and by who ancient laws were enforced? I know that the police as we think of them are an extremely modern thing so I'm kind of looking for information on the systems that existed before that basically. It depends on time and place. I don't know of any comprehensive books. Generally speaking though, ancient laws were enforced by fines or violence, there wasn't much else. Imprisonment was used for high value people or to keep you until trial. A whole lot of crime ended with you getting executed, either by the state or the friends of your victim. There are whole books on Roman trials and law, I don't have any recs but I know those are out there.
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Jun 16, 2022 02:46
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Benagain posted:this inspired some questions and now I want to know, does anyone have some good recommendations on how and by who ancient laws were enforced? I know that the police as we think of them are an extremely modern thing so I'm kind of looking for information on the systems that existed before that basically. There's a TON of systems, really multiple per society. The first that springs to my mind is that it's a minor topic inside of chapter VI of James TC Liu's Reform in Sung China, where he discusses how local bureaucracy was staffed before and after The New Policies. The before picture is that the imperial bureaucracy sends out an executive, and that executive levees people into each of the many many many roles of the local governance (everything from logistics officer to tea attendant)1. People would be leveed based on their economic class (so that you're not pressing scribes from illiterate peasants), which was determined by census, and families would be grouped with the responsibility of furnishing workers rotating between the families in the group. After the New Policies, everyone was taxed, and the appointed executive would have a pay schedule for paying people to fill the various offices. If that first plan sounds like a loving mess: quote:The requisitioned servicemen, Anyway, that's all background to "how was law enforced." The #1 thing to keep in mind behind the curtain is that the Chinese state was, by modern standards, very light on the ground. Very few permanent workers, very low amounts of surveillance, very high degree of local autonomy. So 1) very heterogeneous and 2) quite often relies on extra harsh punishment as deterrence, since reliability was somewhat out of the question. There were...several features that you can generally take for granted in imperial law enforcement. The first thing is, as mentioned, extra harsh punishments. Like it can be surprising to see that there's a distinction between "ordered to commit suicide" vs "sentenced to death." The difference is that "ordered to commit suicide" means getting a death that is typically a lot less painful because Chinese death penalties were frequently really gnarly, and often included disfigurements that were religiously significant (as in, had afterlife repercussions). Collective punishment is also a major feature: the state is relatively light, and thus not able to figure out if somebody did something wrong, so you punish like 50 people for 1 person's wrongs in order to compel all 50 people to snitch on each other. There are variations on this of course (Wu Zetian put some twists on this, for which she went down in infamy even though they were probably more just by most standards). The other is ad hoc enforcement. Again, government tends to be light on the ground, so the ideal of catching criminal conspiracies early is often failed. New executive shows up, goes "why is trade all hosed up" and somebody coughs up "there's bandits in the hills and have been for a decade," and the executive russles up a posse and assaults the bandit camp, with the posse dispersing afterwards. Of course this was not remotely a uniform policy: sometimes those bandits could get out of control, and then you get into the territory of "is it better to punish or forgive." A very, very common tactic for a bandit or pirate who got too powerful was to bribe them back to civil society: amnesty, some money, maybe land, sometimes even a title. Obviously this can be quite embarrassing for the state, but if they're just trying to make some money that's very different from trying to overthrow the emperor or something. Anyway its extremely heterogeneous and I am flattening A LOT and leaving out a lot but this is all kind of constantly going on in the background of any story about Chinese history. 1its so loving complicated dude there's divisions between career and requisitioned and there's like 500 titles and it's just all over the place
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Jun 16, 2022 03:38
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How does the bandit know that they're not going to be seized and tortured to death once they accept the proffered bribe and return to society?
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Jun 16, 2022 03:43
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The Lone Badger posted:How does the bandit know that they're not going to be seized and tortured to death once they accept the proffered bribe and return to society? I mean they don't, but the Chinese government did have a habit of honoring those agreements. Past behavior isn't a guarantee of future behavior but its pretty good. Ching Shih was at one point an international security hazard and she got to spend her last 34 years in peace and prosperity.
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Jun 16, 2022 03:49
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