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SlothfulCobra posted:I dunno, from the things I've been reading, there may have been the political drama, but otherwise a lot of administrative business was still done regardless of all the posturing. Really questionable by what you mean by "the USA's political power". His opposition is entirely principled and maybe he didn’t want his country to get dragged along into a quagmire by us?
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Jun 12, 2022 14:26
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One can definitely stand on principle and not support the Ukrainian people, sure. I would argue that those principles are ghoulish and immoral, however.
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Jun 12, 2022 20:26
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Some would consider condoning ukranian war crimes ghoulish and immoral.
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Jun 12, 2022 20:38
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Interesting conversation to follow from Finland, a country whose relationship with Russia is really quite close to that of Mexico and the US
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Jun 12, 2022 20:53
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Marenghi posted:Some would consider condoning ukranian war crimes ghoulish and immoral. Agreed, but Russian war crimes are vastly greater. Ignoring that fact and only condemning Ukraine would be truly ghoulish and immoral - literally overlooking genocide. Good thing nobody's doing that, right?
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Jun 12, 2022 21:03
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Rust Martialis posted:Agreed, but Russian war crimes are vastly greater. Ignoring that fact and only condemning Ukraine would be truly ghoulish and immoral - literally overlooking genocide. the example of Bolivia serves as a powerful recent reminder to Latin Americans that arming fascist groups and outlawing left wing political parties is not 'supporting the people.' there is no country in South America who has not experienced that flavor of US 'support' at one point or another, of course; Bolivia is just a reminder that the US' stance has not changed since then.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:04
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How are u posted:One can definitely stand on principle and not support the Ukrainian people, sure. I would argue that those principles are ghoulish and immoral, however. Let's be honest, you have no idea what Mexico has or has not done for Ukraine.
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Jun 12, 2022 22:21
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in other news, our good pal Bolsonaro is learning how much being the US's pal pays off not much to say about it, Bolsonaro asking for another round of help like the one that got him the presidency in the first place, Biden giving him the brush-off, not immediately clear which party leaked it or towards what end. most of the reason it's entertaining is this great graf in the middle someone who is writing as an authority on south american politics posted:The US has a standing policy not to pick a side in other nations’ elections, saying that the vote must reflect the desires of the country’s people. there is also a bit at the end where they talk about what good pals Obama and Lula were, which is extremely funny when you know the Obama DOJ was actively going around his back to support the Operation Car Wash goons who stopped him from running in 2018 in the first place.
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Jun 13, 2022 00:21
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Really the most sensible stance for any Latin America nation in this Ukranian war not to pick a side. Condemn both sides or none, but none of us have nothing to gain supporting one side or the other and is not like our support would be anything but words anyway
Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 12:40
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Why not pick a side? We don't like imperialism right? We should condemn any imperialist war no matter what empire wages it. Ideology shouldn't only exist when it's politically convenient. Actually sending support is a different matter and I don't think anybody expects any Latin American country to send anything, but if your posture is that big, rich nations should gently caress off and let the smaller nations be, it would make sense to denounce Russia.
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Jun 13, 2022 14:21
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it's kind of hard to be worried about the russian "empire" if you're still under the monroe doctrine. beyond that it seems like bad diplomacy to "pick a side" with lip service and no material support, then not enjoy any benefit of being on the winning side, or more likely being on the losing side and blowing up trade with the whole continent
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Jun 13, 2022 16:08
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It may be a little more difficult for Ukraine to present a sympathetic case to South American leftists than it otherwise might be given the number of sympathetic puff-pieces they're getting from Western media going 'here's why the guys with the swastika tattoos and Black Sun banners are patriotic heroes'. Bolivians in particular, considering the events of the past few decades.
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Jun 13, 2022 17:07
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Darth Walrus posted:It may be a little more difficult for Ukraine to present a sympathetic case to South American leftists than it otherwise might be given the number of sympathetic puff-pieces they're getting from Western media going 'here's why the guys with the swastika tattoos and Black Sun banners are patriotic heroes'. Bolivians in particular, considering the events of the past few decades. paraguay has just declared war on russia
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Jun 13, 2022 17:12
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Darth Walrus posted:It may be a little more difficult for Ukraine to present a sympathetic case to South American leftists than it otherwise might be given the number of sympathetic puff-pieces they're getting from Western media going 'here's why the guys with the swastika tattoos and Black Sun banners are patriotic heroes'. Bolivians in particular, considering the events of the past few decades. Here in Brazil long before the war Ukraine had become a symbol for our far-right, who would take Ukranian flags and Asov flags to their demonstrations and coined the term "ucranizar" ("to ukranise") meaning violent acts against politicians, public employees and journalists that they deem corrupt fnox posted:Why not pick a side? We don't like imperialism right? We should condemn any imperialist war no matter what empire wages it. Ideology shouldn't only exist when it's politically convenient. Actually sending support is a different matter and I don't think anybody expects any Latin American country to send anything, but if your posture is that big, rich nations should gently caress off and let the smaller nations be, it would make sense to denounce Russia. Whats to gain with that? The big nation that wont let us be is the same one that is pushing us to make an enemy of Russia Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 17:25
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Darth Walrus posted:It may be a little more difficult for Ukraine to present a sympathetic case to South American leftists A leftist who is happy to ignore actual ongoing genocide because they saw an upsetting tattoo on a victim is a pretty poo poo leftist. gently caress them. Ed: Back in the early 90's, El Mozote and the exposure of the coverup by the US really formed my attitude to genocide apologists - if you're opposed to genocide, you're either opposed to it no matter who carries it out, or frankly, you're a hypocrite. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 17:37
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Rust Martialis posted:A leftist who is happy to ignore actual ongoing genocide because they saw an upsetting tattoo on a victim is a pretty poo poo leftist. gently caress them. 
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Jun 13, 2022 17:39
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You'd have thought people would have learned by now that being subjected to a brutal, indiscriminate military campaign doesn't prevent anyone so inclined from themselves indulging in horrific racist violence. See also, how the Idlib rebels in Syria ended up as the vanguard of Turkey's ethnic cleansing of Rojava. There's plenty of evidence that the neo-Nazis in Ukraine are using the Russian invasion as justification to do as neo-Nazis do, from terrorising Russian-Ukrainians to mounting pogroms against Roma under the guise of 'anti-looting' campaigns, and the fact that international pro-Ukrainian media seem almost as inclined to make them the face of Ukrainian resistance as the Russians are may well be making recent victims of fascist violence think twice about offering overly enthusiastic support against the invasion.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:11
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I think this argument has reached the idiotic point of inflection where we can’t agree on who the bigger fascist is in this case. I happen to find it hard to believe that Russia isn’t, what with it’s completely avoidable war causing the displacement of millions and the unnecessary death of thousands of civilians to be pretty indisputably, you know, the bad guy. I don’t need CNN or the BBC to tell me that, I work with people who are now refugees due to this war, I can go and ask them who they think is really in the wrong here. But truly this is getting beyond the scope of this thread. In any case, spare me the chastising about the media. All it would take is for me to bring up the question of whether Venezuela is socialist or not to see online leftists all across the forum suddenly pounce at each other over which sources of information are true. You are not immune to propaganda, no one is.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:36
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fnox posted:I think this argument has reached the idiotic point of inflection where we can’t agree on who the bigger fascist is in this case. I happen to find it hard to believe that Russia isn’t, what with it’s completely avoidable war causing the displacement of millions and the unnecessary death of thousands of civilians to be pretty indisputably, you know, the bad guy. I don’t need CNN or the BBC to tell me that, I work with people who are now refugees due to this war, I can go and ask them who they think is really in the wrong here. But truly this is getting beyond the scope of this thread. The thing is that one side being bad guys who are doing horrible things to the citizens of a country does not, de facto, make any opposing side good guys who will help the citizens of that country - especially if they're fascists, who are infamous for their narrow definition of 'citizens'. When a conflict devolves into fash-on-fash violence, it's the people who end up stuck in between and victimised by both who tend to need the most solidarity and support. The aforementioned Ukrainian Roma are a good example - once both sides start wearing the flags of your murderers, it doesn't actually matter which side is fighting for the broadly more morally defensible cause.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:56
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Rust Martialis posted:A leftist who is happy to ignore actual ongoing genocide because they saw an upsetting tattoo on a victim is a pretty poo poo leftist. gently caress them. All right thinking leftists must support the literal neo-nazi's
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Jun 13, 2022 20:02
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This is the problem with viewing politics exclusively as a team sport. Pointing out that Ukraine has a significant and growing neo-Nazi problem is not a defence of the Russian invasion. It simply means that there is a developing bipartisan consensus towards horrific violence against minorities that pitches both sides against an increasingly large part of the population their actions affect.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:18
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Darth Walrus posted:This is the problem with viewing politics exclusively as a team sport. Pointing out that Ukraine has a significant and growing neo-Nazi problem is not a defence of the Russian invasion. It simply means that there is a developing bipartisan consensus towards horrific violence against minorities that pitches both sides against an increasingly large part of the population their actions affect. You do understand how raising this over the more obvious problem they have, which is that a bigger, militaristic nation is killing thousands upon thousands of their people rather indiscriminately comes across as disingenuous right? It's a false equivalency, and one that certainly favours the invader. I mean after all, the overwhelming majority of the violence going on over there isn't fash-on-fash, it's against Ukrainians, many of which are guilty of nothing other than to be born in an area which Russia covets. That right there, is something Latin Americans are a bit more familiar with. In any case, again, nothing to do with Latin America at this point. Leave it for the Ukraine thread.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:44
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I imagine the majority of Latin America largely doesn't care about what's happening in Eastern Europe, is resistant towards western pressure to take a side during a phase where South America is becoming more independent from Washington, and the ones that do probably get bad deja-vu from the Maidan color revolution and subsequent decentralized warcrime militias. I doubt many of them are going "hell yeah Russia win this war!", but I'm sure if pushed would say they'd like the war to end peacefully and immediately, which might be interpreted as pro-Russia to some camps.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:01
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It's just extremely weird for people (like the president of Mexico) to declare themselves "anti-imperialist" but shrug and refuse to see wrongdoing with more obvious imperialist conquest. It highlights a lot of hyperbole when there's literal examples hanging around in the news and being ignored. Like it seems common to call the US embargo of Cuba a "blockade", when Russia is doing a very literal blockade by blocking Ukraine's ports with warships and seamines. It's even weirder in the context that this isn't like during the Cold War when the world was organizing into power blocs, Russia hasn't put time or money into cultivating its international relations beyond business purposes like they did as the Soviet Union. There's no pragmatic side to throwing in with Russia. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1536403155067539457 There are neo-nazis in the Ukrainian national guard, there are also literal neo-nazis in the invading Russian army that for SOME reason people who use neonazis as adequate justification for the war never mention, despite the fact that since the war is in Ukraine, it's only Ukrainian civilians at risk. If Ukraine survives the war, I can imagine a lot of long-term issues with internal ethnic strife, but the current issue of Russia trying to eliminate the state of Ukraine and killing a lot of people in the process is much, much larger in magnitude. And since the war has already started and Russia has shown no sign of stepping back, the only way to the end of the war is for it to be fought.
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Jun 13, 2022 23:09
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Not a single person here said anything about siding with Russia But honestly, what would be the pragmatic gain of siding with the imperialists on our continent, the ones thats has been loving up our lives for over a century, in condemning the imperialism of this other empire half world across like that one is uniquely evil? For all I know, both sides of this war are full of nazis (and OTAN is no force of good either), and they dont care at all about us all. Why should we pick a side?
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Jun 13, 2022 23:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's just extremely weird for people (like the president of Mexico) to declare themselves "anti-imperialist" but shrug and refuse to see wrongdoing with more obvious imperialist conquest. What a surprise that the president of Mexico is talking about the empire literally next door versus the one on the other half of the world.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:08
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Also, like, who supported and installed the current fascists in Russia currently committing genocide in Ukraine? It's Uncle Sams all the way down.
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Jun 14, 2022 12:35
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Well of course, everything looks bad if you remember it
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Jun 14, 2022 12:57
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Rust Martialis posted:A leftist who is happy to ignore actual ongoing genocide because they saw an upsetting tattoo on a victim is a pretty poo poo leftist. gently caress them. “Upsetting tattoo” is a mild thing to say.
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Jun 14, 2022 13:42
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Also, like, who supported and installed the current fascists in Russia currently committing genocide in Ukraine? It's Uncle Sams all the way down. This is how American leftists think: the US is the only country that truly matters, so everything bad in the world must be America's fault. Whether it's "NATO escalation" or Russia's fascism being a US import, other countries don't have genuine agency, they're all American puppets in essence
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Jun 14, 2022 15:49
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Ras Het posted:This is how American leftists think: the US is the only country that truly matters, so everything bad in the world must be America's fault. Whether it's "NATO escalation" or Russia's fascism being a US import, other countries don't have genuine agency, they're all American puppets in essence Except that’s what actually happened.
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Jun 14, 2022 16:18
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all these planets think they're orbiting sol but what you're really doing is denying them agency
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Jun 14, 2022 16:36
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Can you post in the Ukraine thread instead? I mean the US being the sole actor responsible for everything bad in the world is as annoying of an argument when talking about Latin America, but you're not even remotely trying to link it to the thread.
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Jun 14, 2022 21:00
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fnox posted:The main thing that everyone tells me, and one of the reasons I decided to go at this time, is that the situation with crime has improved a lot. They primarily put the reason for it on immigration, and I mean, if a significant amount of the city’s population has indeed left it makes sense. TBH a lot of the robberies and kidnappings in Caracas took place in the nicest areas, so ironically until a certain point at night slums like Petare or 23 de Enero were pretty safe to be in. So has Venezuela just sort of regressed back to like 1999 or has the Bolivarian revolution made long term positive impacts? I've heard that the United States isn't even that bothered about the country anymore and is considering getting rid of the sanctions since Maduro seems to have become another capital friendly strongman after all that.
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Jun 14, 2022 22:05
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Darth Walrus posted:developing bipartisan consensus towards horrific violence against minorities that pitches both sides against an increasingly large part of the population their actions affect. Is there now. What minorities are Ukrainians slaughtering?
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Jun 14, 2022 22:26
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khwarezm posted:So has Venezuela just sort of regressed back to like 1999 or has the Bolivarian revolution made long term positive impacts? I've heard that the United States isn't even that bothered about the country anymore and is considering getting rid of the sanctions since Maduro seems to have become another capital friendly strongman after all that. I'm gonna pretty much say that all those programs are dismantled and you're seeing a regression way, way past 1999. A lot of the few good things from the 4th Republic are gone too. From my understanding things are so thoroughly ruined that local products cannot compete with imported prices. And it's so, loving, idiotic that any sort of conversation about Venezuela is doomed to talking about loving Guaido while Maduro has started reprivatizing the oil industry. I've been saying for years that Maduro is exactly the type of person who would turn Venezuela into a neoliberal hellscape, I've even used that exact phrase before and it's exactly how I would describe the country now. This was something that was constantly portrayed as like, the inevitable consequence of Maduro being ousted from power. Here's some criticism from Venezuelan socialists.
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Jun 14, 2022 22:35
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steinrokkan posted:Is there now. What minorities are Ukrainians slaughtering? Yeah I must admit I'm kind of curious about this because I haven't seen particularly great evidence of wide scale violence on the Ukrainian side in years.
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Jun 14, 2022 22:40
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khwarezm posted:Yeah I must admit I'm kind of curious about this because I haven't seen particularly great evidence of wide scale violence on the Ukrainian side in years. This Al-Jazeera article from 2018 gives a decent overview of the increasing normalisation of anti-Roma violence in Ukraine and the increasing integration of its perpetrators into law enforcement and the government. They now effectively run the Ministry of Veterans' Affairs, for example.
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Jun 15, 2022 04:37
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Oh no that’s terrible, I wonder how Russia treats its Roma. Oh. And that’s about all we know because Russia kicked out most human rights organizations, because it’s a fascist state. I mean gently caress, why are we taking your word for it, see what the Roma have to say about all this. It’s very cool to only give a poo poo about minorities when they are convenient for you to try and win forum arguments, and not care in the slightest otherwise. But can you shut the gently caress up about Ukraine in the Latin America thread already?
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Jun 15, 2022 06:42
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Ras Het posted:Interesting conversation to follow from Finland, a country whose relationship with Russia is really quite close to that of Mexico and the US This would be a mischaracterization, unless you can explain a bit more. Mexico and US are core allies -- even if they have rocky relationships between different administrations -- the economies are intertwined, there is significant bilateral cooperation, and Mexicans are one of the largest populations in the US. On the other hand, Finland has far higher living standards than Russia?
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