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If we do I totally missed the tell, I'm pretty sure Joyce tells you whoever is not in term spends their time in the za/um Bahamas
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Jun 13, 2022 13:49
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EorayMel posted:Where does cuno fall in all this??????????? Cunos a loving MONK
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Jun 13, 2022 14:12
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Joyce had the only super power I wanted which was no longer needing sleep
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Jun 13, 2022 14:15
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Alchenar posted:I dont think the game explicitly says it, but it is pretty clear that the long term fate of the Union is going to be the one that all groups share where the leadership has eliminated all the potential successor candidates and the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty doesn't actually care about the ideology at all. So who is the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty but doesn't actually care about the ideology at all?
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Jun 13, 2022 14:15
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Alchenar posted:Evrart's corruption isn't seen as necessary, its just forgiven by the Union characters both because he does genuinely believe in making things better and because the cost of opposing him is getting your body dumped in the river. quote:CALL ME MAÑANA – By Heavens, why would he not be corrupt? We live in a harsh and disordered world, see. And in this world, the old man is corrupt for our *benefit* and we know it. Appreciate it, even. He is, personally, not too lavish.
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Jun 13, 2022 14:22
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Orange Devil posted:So who is the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty but doesn't actually care about the ideology at all? Mañana, the Hardie Boys, the unseen Wetwork squad, Measurehead, and literally Harry. Only the Hardies arguably actually believe, and by astonishing coincidence Evrart's plan knowingly involves them all getting killed.
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Jun 13, 2022 15:31
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I'm trying to avoid touching the corpse and I just told Sunday Friend to go gently caress himself. Am I still gonna be able to finish my investigation?
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Jun 13, 2022 15:42
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Hobo Clown posted:I'm trying to avoid touching the corpse and I just told Sunday Friend to go gently caress himself. Am I still gonna be able to finish my investigation? You don't even have to deal with the body to finish the game. Disco Elysium has powerful and potent plot rerailers if you gently caress up/around too much
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Jun 13, 2022 15:44
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There are impressively few things you have to do. Keeping a couple of manual saves so you don't get backed into an unfun corner isn't a bad idea though. Notably there are a couple of required White Checks with Titus and the Hardie Boys. . Additional UI/mechanical tip : If you fail and retry keep an eye out for additional options on how to respond to your failure (on the third and further failures IIRC).
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Jun 13, 2022 15:50
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Hobo Clown posted:I'm trying to avoid touching the corpse and I just told Sunday Friend to go gently caress himself. Am I still gonna be able to finish my investigation? There's an achievement for beating the case without clicking on the body at all+saying a specific dialogue line at the very end relating to this fact
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Jun 13, 2022 15:52
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imo it really doesn't matter how much the Claires actually believe in building communism. What matters is that they're building a system that doesn't care about the fates of the individuals living within it, and one where all the power runs through an unaccountable leadership — so no matter what they manage to achieve, if they achieve anything at all, it will ultimately fail.
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Jun 13, 2022 15:52
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I know you don't need to mess with the body, I'm going for the trophy. But I didn't know how necessary SF's testimony ends up being if you get none of the body's clues. I'm low motorics but had to bump up my Visual Calculus for the footprints to even get Hardie to admit to anything. Edit: also pertaining to that specific dialogue at the end, I read online that interacting with the other corpse means you don't get that option. Can anyone confirm?
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Jun 13, 2022 15:53
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Evrart is making the mother of all omelettes here Harry, can't fret over every egg.
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Jun 13, 2022 15:54
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keithy george posted:Her position has given her material comfort but no prestige, and given her the time to ponder the meaning of life and the enchroaching pale. Wait, doesn't she turn out to be the major shareholder of Wild Pines? Like, directly in control of the Board/THE Wild Pines? She has plenty of prestige, she just carries it around under her jacket. When she runs off before the Tribunal, it's basically Pontius Pilate washing their bloodied hands.
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Jun 13, 2022 16:21
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A Bad King posted:Wait, doesn't she turn out to be the major shareholder of Wild Pines? Like, directly in control of the Board/THE Wild Pines? She has plenty of prestige, she just carries it around under her jacket. When she runs off before the Tribunal, it's basically Pontius Pilate washing their bloodied hands. she’s very high up but doesn’t have carte blanche control over the company. the mercenaries weren’t her call, and her retreat is more her using what authority she has to sever the standoff. she can’t pierce the company’s bureaucracy outright but she can basically call “time” on their attempts to wrest power from the Union
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Jun 13, 2022 16:30
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Acebuckeye13 posted:imo it really doesn't matter how much the Claires actually believe in building communism. What matters is that they're building a system that doesn't care about the fates of the individuals living within it, and one where all the power runs through an unaccountable leadership — so no matter what they manage to achieve, if they achieve anything at all, it will ultimately fail. (an important thing to remember is that the Claires aren't communists, they are labor socialists. Commie Harry gets to diss Evrart about it)
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Jun 13, 2022 16:53
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Hobo Clown posted:I'm trying to avoid touching the corpse and I just told Sunday Friend to go gently caress himself. Am I still gonna be able to finish my investigation?
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Jun 13, 2022 20:39
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A Bad King posted:Wait, doesn't she turn out to be the major shareholder of Wild Pines? Like, directly in control of the Board/THE Wild Pines? She has plenty of prestige, she just carries it around under her jacket. When she runs off before the Tribunal, it's basically Pontius Pilate washing their bloodied hands. Yeah, you can pray out of her that she has absolute authority over everything wild pines does. That's why her moralist hang wringing is so offensive. She knows what she does is evil, has every power to change it, and chooses not to. She knowingly sends those psychotic mercenaries around the world raping and murdering. Imo, she's worse than the Sunday friend. At least he's just an ignorant cog in the machine
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Jun 13, 2022 21:20
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Yeah, you can pray out of her that she has absolute authority over everything wild pines does. That's why her moralist hang wringing is so offensive. She knows what she does is evil, has every power to change it, and chooses not to. She knowingly sends those psychotic mercenaries around the world raping and murdering. Imo, she's worse than the Sunday friend. At least he's just an ignorant cog in the machine IIRC Joyce specifically states she didn't want to send the mercs in the first place, the rest of the board did and she got outvoted.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:19
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Acebuckeye13 posted:IIRC Joyce specifically states she didn't want to send the mercs in the first place, the rest of the board did and she got outvoted. If you pry hard enough, you find out she owns a majority share, meaning she can't be outvoted. Edir: which kind of follows the pattern with how much she lies to you. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 22:22
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That doesn't mean she is the one who sent them.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:37
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She feels bad enough about the situtation that she has shown up personally to try to unfuck it.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:49
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The only good entity in the first act is Lamby, because he's super soft I just learned that if you tell the little girl that you're scum who does not deserve Lamby's softness, Kim says something that made me laugh hard enough to hurt my side . A Bad King fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 22:55
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Joyce chat reminding me a lot of all those interviews where some supposedly savvy reporter gets totally bowled over that George Bush or Pete Buttigieg or whoever can be highly charming in person, and spends their next several columns gushing about how it really seems like they care and say what you will about the half-million Iraqis nobody that funny can be all that bad
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 22:56
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I always got the impression Joyce was more interested in finding out how the union had been able to survive wild pines trying to starve them out for the last few months rather than anything, she fucks off home pretty much the exact moment you tell her what's going on.
Tiger Millionaire fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 23:08
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Tiger Millionaire posted:I always got the impression Joyce was more interested in finding out how the union had been able to survive wild pines trying to starve them out for the last few months rather than anything, she fucks off home pretty much the exact moment you tell her what's going on. Yeah, her entire goal appears to be to use Harry to destroy the union, either through the drug investigation or the murder investigation. She doesn't seem to care which. If she genuinely was trying to unfuck the situation she would leave and take her ultra rape-murder mercs with her. I cannot express how extremely evil the mercs are, and by extension anyone who would employ them. If you talk to the scab leader, he tells you a story about gang-raping, mutilating, and murdering a random indigenous person -- and he cannot stop laughing through the whole thing. Just completely in stitches, has to stop the story just to let out a chuckle.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:08
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IIRC she can't because now that one of them is dead they're out for blood and won't comply.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:14
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christmas boots posted:IIRC she can't because now that one of them is dead they're out for blood and won't comply. So she says, but we know from the scab leader himself the only reason he keeps his mask on, instead of punching you to death, is that he has orders, and orders are orders. Everyone wants the RCM to take the foil.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:16
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A Bad King posted:So she says, but we know from the scab leader himself the only reason he keeps his mask on, instead of punching you to death, is that he has orders, and orders are orders. My take is that they're willing to follow orders to a point, but they're getting more and more frustrated as the investigation goes on and the people bragging about stringing up their friend (who we're led to believe was a stabilizing influence) are just walking around free and clear. By the time the tribunal happens their patience is worn out and they're just going to get the blood they want since obviously you're not going to do it any time soon, and I think that's consistent with what we learn about them and how that's presented.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:21
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Mercs that can be traced to Wild Pines doing a good, old fashioned massacre of civilians in the middle of Martinaise significantly strengthens the Union and is really bad look for Wild Pines, so this is the one instance where Joyce is almost certainly telling the truth.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:22
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christmas boots posted:My take is that they're willing to follow orders to a point, but they're getting more and more frustrated as the investigation goes on and the people bragging about stringing up their friend (who we're led to believe was a stabilizing influence) are just walking around free and clear. By the time the tribunal happens their patience is worn out and they're just going to get the blood they want since obviously you're not going to do it any time soon, and I think that's consistent with what we learn about them and how that's presented. They directly state all this
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Jun 14, 2022 00:23
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I'm willing to believe that the mercs really are off the leash and uncontrollable, but I'm not gonna take Joyce's word for it. She is constantly lying to Harry and stringing him along.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:24
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Gaius Marius posted:They directly state all this Right, and I'm saying that it makes sense to take it at face value because it's consistent with what we see.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:25
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Krenel being hired by Joyce doesn't fit her MO at all. She's rather transparent about how she plans to deal with the Union, Tie them to either the murder or the drugs and use that as leverage to force out Evrart and his guys. Then business as usual. She has nothing to gain from a slaughter in the streets galvanizing the working classes against WP, but she does gain from painting Evrart as a murderer or as a Druglord.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:27
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I'm willing to believe that the mercs really are off the leash and uncontrollable, but I'm not gonna take Joyce's word for it. She is constantly lying to Harry and stringing him along.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:32
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any analysis of joyce that fails to mention her pale exposure is also incomplete. the earlier statement that she's "definitely someone who watches the West Wing" is precisely incorrect - rather than being someone who partakes and believes in a doctored, sanitized reality where she's inherently righteous and reasonable (as the average moralintern agent does), she's been mainlining raw reality to the point where it literally keeps her up at night. the waves of history crash against her mind and leave her with few illusions as to her place in the world and her corrosive influence on it, but its totality also leaves her feeling unable to exert positive change even with her staggering wealth and power. her only outright lies to harry revolve around her class and status (down to her absurdly bougie first name), and it comes from a place of actual embarrassment, because admitting her status in this situation also means confessing her impotence it's a kind of self-serving fatalism: she's a senior partner in wild pines and a member of the board, but so what? there are other partners and other board members. she's one of the richest people on the planet, but so what? there are others who are just as rich or richer and they don't share her view of things. her self-effacement is a defense mechanism - someone could very plausibly accuse her of not wanting to rock the boat because it would threaten her own comfort, and she'd agree without hesitation, because that's exactly what one should expect from a nether creature of the forbidden swamp. the union standoff in martinaise probably caught her interest because in part because it vindicates her learned helplessness, since all her wealth and influence still can't make the claire brothers budge. but it also can't call back a few tweaked-out mercenaries with automatic rifles, so in the end she admits defeat and sails off - the only course of action someone as passive as joyce could have taken, but also an attempt to preserve one of the few places she has some actual sentimentality for joyce would be extremely dull if she really was the reptilian self-serving capitalist overlord she casts herself as. instead she's an example of how the machinery of capitalism subsumes everyone who participates in it, even the ones at the top. as steinbeck put it quote:We're sorry, it's not us. It's the monster. The bank isn't like a man. she should be one of the most powerful people in revachol, but all her power is tied up in wild pines, which is interested first and foremost in the preservation of wild pines. this is another contrast to the claires' voracious takeover of the docks. they might have just a handful of teamsters and a yard of shipping crates, but the Union isn't fettered by institutional inertia or self-preservation - in that sense, it really is an organization "of the people," even if those people are primarily the claires.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:57
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I'm on day 1, the nice lady in the boat gave me a 130 réal cheque no questions asked so obviously she's great
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Jun 14, 2022 02:11
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Does she ever give 10,000 real? I've never tried.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:22
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She says she doesn't carry that much on her person.
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Jun 14, 2022 02:23
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Alchenar posted:Mañana, the Hardie Boys, the unseen Wetwork squad, Measurehead, and literally Harry. Literally none of these guys are in any position to inherit the union lol, this is a list of the most expendable thugs in (and for some reason out of) the union. The Claires represent an entire implied bureaucratic apparatus that doesn't get speaking roles because it's not a game about interviewing every single union member or explaining how the cards get printed Cpt_Obvious posted:I'm willing to believe that the mercs really are off the leash and uncontrollable, but I'm not gonna take Joyce's word for it. She is constantly lying to Harry and stringing him along. The mercs really aren't taking orders but the idea that therefore their deathsquad-hiring multinational conglomerate employers have no means whatever of stopping them should they really want to is pretty silly. They're just not particularly motivated to expend any resources to that end. The leadership of global hegemonies pointing to the most trivial obstacles to doing anything they don't want to do and crying "oh well, alas" has been the story of the past several decades A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 02:29
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