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drrockso20 posted:Honestly I've long come to the conclusion that pretty much everyone making works set in UC set after the OYW is intentionally ignoring most of the casualties of that war that aren't directly depicted onscreen otherwise the numbers just don't add up, at least Macross had the excuse after it's near extinction of humanity that they just did a lot of cloning to rebuild the population, and sure UC has cloning too but we never really see it used anywhere besides the Puru series Yeah, this is my assumption as well. It's kind of in a weird place though, where all the One Year War material that delves into numbers still talks about it like billions died, but as you say, everything post One Year War acts like it was a lot softer. Not even just in pure population numbers, all the Sides are basically immediately restored by Zeta and in ZZ you have multiple old colonies that were still inhabited as if the One Year War never touched them. It's a weird case where Banrise seem to want both things to be true in different contexts. That said, I do recall reading a while ago that while SDF Macross makes it seem like there were only a few thousand people who survived the Zentradi rain of death on Earth, plus the Macross' population, that the actual surviving number was into the millions and cloning wasn't actually as big a thing as some sources make out. I can't remember where I read it, so I'd have to go nosing around for a source, but it would make sense of why Mikumo being a clone was actually somewhat of a big deal rather than anyone going "yeah, so what; all of our grandparents are clones". chiasaur11 posted:Kira, Amuro, Mikazuki, Flit, Asemu, Reiji. Don't Seabook and Cecily have children by the time of later Crossbone works?
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Jun 15, 2022 00:06
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kira had a sex and decided "eh maybe later"
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Jun 15, 2022 00:09
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chiasaur11 posted:Kira, Amuro, Mikazuki, Flit, Asemu, Reiji. Shiro definitely boned Aina unless there's a missing episode where we find out he has an NTR fetish.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:15
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chiasaur11 posted:The numbers are actually possible. They're just remarkably high. Basically, they say that Banagher's generation is huge. Well it's not just population numbers that are screwy, it's also the number of functional colonies, like where the hell did they all come from in such a short period of time between the OYW and Gryps, like even accounting for there being colonies that could probably be fixed up pretty easily like Texas Colony or the sole finished Side 7 colony it's still a bit much tsob posted:Yeah, this is my assumption as well. It's kind of in a weird place though, where all the One Year War material that delves into numbers still talks about it like billions died, but as you say, everything post One Year War acts like it was a lot softer. Not even just in pure population numbers, all the Sides are basically immediately restored by Zeta and in ZZ you have multiple old colonies that were still inhabited as if the One Year War never touched them. It's a weird case where Banrise seem to want both things to be true in different contexts. Exactly
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Jun 15, 2022 00:17
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Fa and Kamille were definitely loving.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:17
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tsob posted:This is not a remotely fair or reasonable assessment of the politics or blame in UC, considering that the Federation literally built the very land the Spacenoids live on (or at least, paid for it to be built), so they absolutely have some legitimate claim to rule Lmao and European powers built/paid for all the railroads in Colonial Africa. quote:and that Side 3 were the only Side to rebel during the One Year War I would speculate that Side 3 would have gotten a lot more colonies on it's side if Zeon Diakun had lived and they weren't headed by NeoMalthusian mass murderers. Even still Zeon and it's successors get a lot of support from everyman characters in space and on Earth in the subsequent series. Hell even Bright seems to admire Diakun in the Origin manga. The rest is I think too little too late. The Laplace Box may be a retcon but the sentement that Spaceboids should have had a seat at the table from the very start of the project is correct. ,
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Jun 15, 2022 00:19
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War and Pieces posted:Lmao and European powers built/paid for all the railroads in Colonial Africa. On the other hand, lmao at the fact you think building railroads is equivalent to building the literal land people live on. War and Pieces posted:I would speculate that Side 3 would have gotten a lot more colonies on it's side if Zeon Diakun had lived and they weren't headed by NeoMalthusian mass murderers. Even still Zeon and it's successors get a lot of support from everyman characters in space and on Earth in the subsequent series. Do they? Cause as far as I can see, the only Zeon faction to have any notable public support is Char's Neo Zeon. Delaz's Axis Zeon is a tiny force with no popular support, Haman's Neo Zeon is mostly self supported and has to force it's way into acceptance by everyone (AEUG, the Federation, Side 3) and Full Frontal's Sleeves have no popular support, nor does Darcia Bakharov, the guy funding the Sleeves in reality.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:24
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There's no guarantee that Zeon Deikun being alive would have made a difference. Origin implies that his declaration of independence was intended to be an act of war against Federation rule, and the original left it vague as to how benevolent he actually was. He's like space Lenin.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:26
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No, Space Lenin is in 00.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:29
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tsob posted:On the other hand, lmao at the fact you think building railroads is equivalent to building the literal land people live on. Haman's Neo Zeon is allied with the Africa Liberation Front who are strategically allied with them against the Federation, and there's the taxi driver in Hathaway who at this point is expressing support for a different anti-Federation terrorist organization but hey. Basically, like the Bolsheviks, Zeon is a flag for people disaffected with the big powers to rally too, even if they may latter come to find that the New Boss is the worse than the Old Boss War and Pieces fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 00:37
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War and Pieces posted:Haman's Neo Zeon is allied with the Africa Liberation Front who are strategically allied with them against the Federation, and there's the taxi driver in Hathaway who at this point is expressing support for a different anti-Federation terrorist organization but hey. Hey in this case being "Haman's Neo Zeon had allies in another militia who saw them as a source of weapons to help their own cause rather than public support" and "an Earthnoid expressed some support for a completely different thing that's only tangentially related by being anti-Federation"; neither of which are good examples of "Zeon has wide spread public support". War and Pieces posted:Basically, like the Bolsheviks, Zeon is a flag for people disaffected with the big powers to rally too, even if they may latter come to find that the New Boss is the worse than the Old Boss Zeon was more of a flag for the utterly desperate, a sentiment Marida reflects in Unicorn. The majority of people were comfortable enough that they weren't looking for such a rallying call. After a few decades, even that lost it's allure and people like the Crossbone Vanguard were using other causes to rally people to instead. Even then, no other Spacenoid cause (Crossbone Vanguard, Zanscare etc) gained widespread support based on it's actual objectives, and the Crossbone Vanguard mostly rallied people using a front of more peaceful political resistance while Zanscare was only ever about it's own Side before conquering other Sides using terror tactics to keep them in line too. They did have some support, but that support was based on older ideals like Zeon Zum for Side 3 rather than any post violent authoritarian support. That aside, the fact various Spacenoid causes did have some support even based on early, more peaceful or politically neutral figures doesn't brush aside that the issue is not nearly so simple as "Spacenoids should have been granted immediate independence and everything is the Feds fault". tsob fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 00:40
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Arc Hammer posted:There's no guarantee that Zeon Deikun being alive would have made a difference. Origin implies that his declaration of independence was intended to be an act of war against Federation rule, and the original left it vague as to how benevolent he actually was. He's like space Lenin. Daikun wasnt about to install a literal Monarchy, tho he did surround himself with Aristocrats, he wasn't a Hitler fanboy, being too busy smelling his own farts to sniff long dead ones. Unclear as to what he thought about Newtype supremacy and Malthusian depopulation.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:44
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tsob posted:
Darcia wasn't funding the sleeves. That's his son, Monaghan. And Darcia does have quite widespread public support, considering he's been able to maintain his seat as Prime Minister in open elections for more than 20 years running, despite negotiating Zeon's surrender to the Federation.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:47
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I love how Setsuna is just prone to saying the word "Gundam"
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Jun 15, 2022 00:48
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chiasaur11 posted:Darcia wasn't funding the sleeves. That's his son, Monaghan. Good point, getting my Bakharov's mixed up. Yeah, Darcia was quite popular but Monaghan's support is a lot more questionable; especially given that he's funding quite a small group under the table, so he presumably doesn't think that'd have such wide support, even in Side 3. I assume he'll have more of a role in Unicorn 2 though, so maybe that'll delve further into it. Waffleman_ posted:I love how Setsuna is just prone to saying the word "Gundam" Setsuna is probably the one Gundam protagonist we can be quite sure didn't gently caress.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:51
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https://youtu.be/UmivXLlObr4 If Zeon didn't have widespread support then running with Char as the face of your reform movement would've been a pretty bone-headed move.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:52
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War and Pieces posted:https://youtu.be/UmivXLlObr4 Char had widespread support, not Zeon. Which is probably why he starts his speech by making clear that he views his father as having been different to the greedy Zabis, and why his strain of Zeon was the only one with actual widespread support.
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Jun 15, 2022 00:57
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The reason Zeon has widespread support is that Gundam is for a Japanese Audience made by Japanese Creators, and as we all know, Sci-fi and MIlitary Fiction Authors have a habit of being very right wing to being out and out cryptofascists (Hi there, Baen Books and Tom Clancy). Therefore, because Zeon has, more and more over the years, become a stand in for Imperial Japan, its only natural that Zeon in universe has gained more and more widespread support as Imperial Japanese Apologia has become not only widely accepted, but somewhat mainstream in Japan given the rise and political powers of certain right wing groups within the LDP and the influence of the Nippon Kaigi. Edit: it's really no different from, say, Western Sci-Fi novels about aliens invading having Germany's government give rejuvenation treatments to the Waffen SS to have them fight the Aliens, or any british sci-fi novel that has the UK (England) recreating the British Empire IN SPACE- Its not a unique problem unique to Japan. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 01:09
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I very much appreciate Gary here just being the wildest of cards.
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Jun 15, 2022 01:22
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setsuna was basically a priest whose temple was powered by gn particles.
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Jun 15, 2022 01:23
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Lockon! Lockon! Lockon! Lockon!
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Jun 15, 2022 01:47
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Hooting and hollering at Daybreak's Bell over these credits
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Jun 15, 2022 02:39
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Waffleman_ posted:Lockon! gently caress you I just remembered this and now I'm both a little drunk and a little upset. Which means it'a a great time to start IBO.
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Jun 15, 2022 02:42
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I think the later series kinda ignore and move past 6 billion people dieing because if you don't, how could they ever focus on any other big picture stuff ever gain? The writers don't really have a choice but to just move on.
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Jun 15, 2022 03:39
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Pneub posted:I think the later series kinda ignore and move past 6 billion people dieing because if you don't, how could they ever focus on any other big picture stuff ever gain? The writers don't really have a choice but to just move on. It's basically a survival strategy at that point in-universe as well. You just try to get through it, because if you stop and ponder it, you'll snap. Macross is far worse about it. Like, Gundam, the world is generally shown to be caught up in massive multi-generational trauma from the aftermath of the One Year War. Macross, they don't even go "can you believe that humanity nearly went extinct? Crazy, right?".
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Jun 15, 2022 03:50
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chiasaur11 posted:It's basically a survival strategy at that point in-universe as well. You just try to get through it, because if you stop and ponder it, you'll snap. Maybe UC citizens would be happier if they had better pop music to take their mind off things.
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Jun 15, 2022 04:00
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WrightOfWay posted:Maybe UC citizens would be happier if they had better pop music to take their mind off things. This worked for thr quadruple amputee guy in Thunderbolt, I would recommend you stay away from UC jazz tho
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Jun 15, 2022 04:04
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WrightOfWay posted:Maybe UC citizens would be happier if they had better pop music to take their mind off things. There is precedent in the franchise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyrzVuHFSsg (....I just had a thought as a huge Final Fantasy X fan. In Gundam, the heroine of the world was turned into a pop sensation as a means of controlling the masses. In FFX, the heroine also became an idol singer but of her own free will. It doesn't mean anything, just never thought of it before. I guess both Destiny and X-2 simply recognize the incredible power of music, which is to their credit)
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Jun 15, 2022 04:20
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Make everyone in the UC listen to My Chemical Romance.
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Jun 15, 2022 04:22
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I chime in with a "Haven't you people ever heard of get in the GODdamn Gundam?"
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Jun 15, 2022 04:27
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Gundam 00 gets a Death Cab for Cutie album as required listening.
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Jun 15, 2022 04:37
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Arc Hammer posted:There's no guarantee that Zeon Deikun being alive would have made a difference. Origin implies that his declaration of independence was intended to be an act of war against Federation rule, and the original left it vague as to how benevolent he actually was. He's like space Lenin. saying hes like space lenin would mean hes good though
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Jun 15, 2022 05:27
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Degwin's Zeon seemed pretty popular. He was also completely uninterested in all the war stuff his son wanted, shame he did not have enough backbone to control his children.
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Jun 15, 2022 05:53
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MonsterEnvy posted:Degwin's Zeon seemed pretty popular. He was also completely uninterested in all the war stuff his son wanted, shame he did not have enough backbone to control his children. My tinfoil hat is telling me that Degwin was working for the Feds/Anaheim when he killed Deikun but his handlers didn't take his psycho kids into account
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Jun 15, 2022 06:59
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Eh I've never really bought into the idea that Degwin or anyone else actually killed Deikun, feels more appropriate that it was indeed natural causes, just at exactly the worst possible time in a way that comes off as incredibly suspicious, especially in an overly paranoid society like Side 3 was becoming
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Jun 15, 2022 07:05
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drrockso20 posted:Eh I've never really bought into the idea that Degwin or anyone else actually killed Deikun, feels more appropriate that it was indeed natural causes, just at exactly the worst possible time in a way that comes off as incredibly suspicious, especially in an overly paranoid society like Side 3 was becoming This was always my take as well. There's literally no evidence he did anything except take advantage of a happy accident. The only people who think he did it are shitheads we shouldn't trust.
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Jun 15, 2022 07:06
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NikkolasKing posted:This was always my take as well. There's literally no evidence he did anything except take advantage of a happy accident. I mean, Ramba Ral seemed skeptical of the official story, as was Don Teabolo Mass, and they're both standup guys. There's not enough evidence for a conviction, but there's enough that things look really sketchy. Anyway, watched the fourth episode of 00 Season 2, if only to stay ahead of Waffleman a little longer. We get the flashbacks for Allelujah and Soma at the start, which feels awkwardly wedged in to the first season's version of their backgrounds. Shared history makes sense, but having them be The Most Important People to each other after a season of not recognizing each other beyond "Super soldier pilot" is clunky. It also reduces the impact of Allelujah's mass murder a little, because instead of killing a bunch of people like Soma, he managed to only kill the faceless extras while leaving his crush intact. The episode's fight wasn't great or terrible. It advanced some character beats well, but there wasn't much interesting to the action. Still, underwater is a change of pace, and getting Sumeragi back in the game like that felt well done, if a little quick. On the other hand, a lot of the other character moments leaned very heavily into "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!". Marina is also uninteresting, since she's just doing the exact same character beats from season 1 without her or Setsuna having advanced. Oh, and all the new A-Laws are dull, with even less character depth than the Titans they're referencing. The Titans had the advantage of following up on the original Gundam, so you got a little bit of a layer from the "They saw a war that killed billions" thing so that the default attitude from them is easier to contextualize, and means that "they're just assholes for fun" is a specific character beat rather than a general one (separating the Basks from the Jamitovs, despite them both being total assholes) while there's no general setup for the A-Laws to make it easy to understand how they market themselves as the heroes.
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Jun 15, 2022 10:22
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Pneub posted:I think the later series kinda ignore and move past 6 billion people dieing because if you don't, how could they ever focus on any other big picture stuff ever gain? The writers don't really have a choice but to just move on. My feeling is that Tomino is someone who both doesn't particularly care about sticking to canon as such, and that he's someone that creates the lore needed to support the story he wants and then forgets about it as soon as he's done with it. Not even just in the case of the huge scale of death in the One Year War, which mostly seemed to exist solely to explain how a single Side could fight a global government, but with things like the psycoframe too. It's purpose was done after Char's Counterattack, so he put it aside and it was only other people that looked at it and went "hang on, wouldn't that mean...". Tomino didn't do so not because he couldn't see further implications or whatever, but because it just didn't matter to him or what he was doing with other stories. chiasaur11 posted:Macross is far worse about it. Like, Gundam, the world is generally shown to be caught up in massive multi-generational trauma from the aftermath of the One Year War. I'd say Macross is the better of the two honestly, because in Macross at least every entry not only takes place a decade or so after the previous (bar Plus > 7), but also takes place in a completely different place. SDF is the only mainline entry primarily focused on Earth or even the Solar System. All the rest are on planets in a different system, with Plus taking place on Eden, 7 and Frontier being about colony fleets and Delta taking place on the fringes of our galaxy. Macross II and Macross Zero do take place on Earth too, but Macross Zero is a prequel before all that near extinction business and Macross II is a sequel set 80 years after the original show; so maybe 3 generations removed, and you can still definitely feel the after effects of the First Space War on the people within the story. It makes sense that the people and places in Plus, 7, Frontier and Delta wouldn't really be too worried about the near extinction of humanity, because the last 10 or so episodes of the original show were about Global helming a plan to ensure no such thing could happen again, sending out colony fleets across the galaxy so humanity would be too disparate to ever suffer catastrophically from one centralized attack in the future, after which all those new fleets (or just the central cast in the case of Plus) are generally helmed by people chronologically and geographically removed enough from the First Space War to really be anxious about it in the first place. NikkolasKing posted:I guess both Destiny and X-2 simply recognize the incredible power of music, which is to their credit I wouldn't say that Destiny recognized the incredible power of music, so much as that it recognized the incredible power of idols/Lacus/propaganda (pick one). The music Lacus was singing never seemed like it was of particular note to the people who were falling over themselves to worship her, so much as Lacus being Lacus. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 12:02
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I’m not sure where the idea that gundam forgets the mass casualties of the OYW comes from, most UC stuff is pretty consistent about everything being really empty, with not as many people around as there should be, and it’s mentioned multiple times that the federation is actively controlling population density by moving people around, to the level of the forced eviction from earth in Hathaway. I also think it’s worth noting that, as far as I’m aware, while there were new colony construction projects post OYW there was also a big project to redistribute colony cylinders among all the sides, and I don’t think we ever see sides at the cylinder density described pre-OYW in anything later on.
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Jun 15, 2022 13:52
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Oh hey, they have uniforms now. E: loving love it when a gundam has a giant cloak on it It's extremely convenient that the one of us that got killed has a twin brother we can call the same thing Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 15:21
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