|
I'm not nearly as informed as Tulip but I've got Local Government in China under the Ch'ing by T'ung-Tsu Ch'u (瞿同祖) somewhere which I think is a good English-language overview... of Qing law, which is not remotely ancient. However, there are at least claims of an administrative/judicial tradition stretching through the various periods of Imperial China, so it might be worth a read regardless. The T'ang penal code is, I believe, the earliest fully-preserved Chinese legal code and Wallace Johnson & Denis Twitchett's attempted reconstruction of criminal proceedings can be found in this 1993 article in Asia Major.
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 03:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 03:29 |
|
|
Tulip posted:I mean they don't, but the Chinese government did have a habit of honoring those agreements. Past behavior isn't a guarantee of future behavior but its pretty good. Liu Yongfu went from Taiping soldier to running a bandit army in Vietnam that fought the French and eventually ended up as president of Formosa(for a very short time) I think if they started double-crossing surrendered bandit chiefs they'd rapidly stop surrendering
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 06:32
|
|
|
Elyv posted:Liu Yongfu went from Taiping soldier to running a bandit army in Vietnam that fought the French and eventually ended up as president of Formosa(for a very short time) I assumed I'd be surrendering to some local official who'd been told to solve the bandit problem, and it's the first time he personally has done it so I've got no history to go on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 07:07
|
|
|
General Zhang Guoliang who led armies against the Taiping and was defeated and killed in 1860 is also supposed to have been a former bandit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 07:18
|
|
|
Probably a big part of it is if someone is that effective a bandit, better to have them on your side.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 10:51
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Probably a big part of it is if someone is that effective a bandit, better to have them on your side. Pretty much the reasoning behind privateers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 12:34
|
|
|
Lawman 0 posted:Dudes rock. p sure the whole block was rockin
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 12:49
|
|
|
I remember this Qing Dynasty case from law school. Guy A gets killed by landlord in some rent dispute. Landlord bribes local magistrate and also, importantly, Guy A’s father to keep things quiet. Guy A’s brother returns to town, starts raising a ruckus. Finds out about the bribes and gets the provincial governor involved. After an investigation, the governor orders the execution of landlord and the magistrate (obviously). But what about the father? Governor decides he deserves hard labor for accepting a bribe to keep quiet. The father’s sentence is appealed to Beijing. Upon review, the appellate official determines that it is the brother who should serve the father’s hard labor sentence — with the rationale that this is actually sparing the brother the agony of knowing he unfilially condemned his own father to harsh punishment.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 19:31
|
|
|
I think it was either in this thread or milhist but someone posted a link a while ago of a translation of an early Spanish voyage in the Americas that documented the then recent collapse in populations. If anyone has it that'd be much appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 22:12
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:I think it was either in this thread or milhist but someone posted a link a while ago of a translation of an early Spanish voyage in the Americas that documented the then recent collapse in populations. If anyone has it that'd be much appreciated. Was it De Las Casas? edit: If so here's a Gutenberg link: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20321 Medenmath fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jun 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:I think it was either in this thread or milhist but someone posted a link a while ago of a translation of an early Spanish voyage in the Americas that documented the then recent collapse in populations. If anyone has it that'd be much appreciated. may've been me eke out posted:the part of 1491 about the first european encounters with post-smallpox america draws heavily from the Chronicle of the Narvaez Expedition by Cabeza de Vaca circa 1540 and i couldn't recommend it enough eke out fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jun 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2022 23:38
|
|
|
eke out posted:may've been me 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 03:17
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I got a 404 when I clicked the link https://web.archive.org/web/20201112030837/https://www.americanjourneys.org/pdf/AJ-070.pdf
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 03:31
|
|
|
This video was in the latest acoup post about what a well drilled Roman unit may have looked like, more than the "dudes standing rigidly in formation" sort of depiction that's often done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4D-HUUTXvQ Pretty interesting, though some of this definitely looks like it's just for show rather than useful.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
One half way decently thrown pipe bomb or Molotov would break that up entirely. Let alone one day dude with a rifle.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 21:45
|
|
|
Fortunately Romans didn't have to deal with bombs until quite a ways into their history. And never encountered rifles.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 21:58
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:This video was in the latest acoup post about what a well drilled Roman unit may have looked like, more than the "dudes standing rigidly in formation" sort of depiction that's often done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4D-HUUTXvQ I'd be inclined to suspect its put into practice. South Korean riots are hardcore in a way that American riots just aren't, I'd be surprised if they're doing dance routines instead of putting their experience to work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
It's also much less offensive than Romans would normally be, so you lack the parts of the tactics that were meant to get kills in.FreudianSlippers posted:One half way decently thrown pipe bomb or Molotov would break that up entirely. Well there was the part of the video where they went into a looser formation to be less vulnerable to bomb attacks and even had a whole formation for extinguishing fires. Not sure how much that running around to shift formations would work in the heat of the moment when the people would already be at risk of exhaustion, but it sure looks neat.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
yea later in the video they show tactics specifically for lots of molotov cocktails being thrown (the practice protesters are throwing real fire at them) and they light big canisters of gas (thats what it looked like to me) on fire too
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 22:21
|
|
|
How long until the protesters discover slings?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 23:43
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:How long until the protesters discover slings? Throwing grenades from slings was a practice in the spanish civil war
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 23:52
|
|
|
How much more range are you getting out of that vs. the increased chance of accidentally blowing yourself up
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 23:55
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Fortunately Romans didn't have to deal with bombs until quite a ways into their history. And never encountered rifles. Elephants tho. They did have those .
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2022 23:57
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:How much more range are you getting out of that vs. the increased chance of accidentally blowing yourself up Probably depends on how closely your childhood resembled Dennis the Menace. euphronius posted:Elephants tho. They did have those . Turns out that you can get really good at anti-elephant tactics a lot faster than people can breed and train war elephants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:10
|
|
|
I always thought it was shortsighted of JC to massacre all of the druids as their weather magic would have been an effective ranged attack .
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:12
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I always thought it was shortsighted of JC to massacre all of the druids as their weather magic would have been an effective ranged attack . Caesar was one of those guys who refuses to use magic in Dark Souls
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:13
|
|
|
Did war elephants ever work reliably? Seems like they were usually like these guys in old school Warhammer: As likely to hurt your side as the enemy
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:45
|
|
|
As far as I know elephants were never especially effective, at least in the Mediterranean world. They're impressive but once you get over the initial shock they're cavalry but without the speed and maneuverability of horses, and you can't field anywhere near as many of them. They're like scythe chariots.euphronius posted:I always thought it was shortsighted of JC to massacre all of the druids as their weather magic would have been an effective ranged attack . The Etruscans still had weather wizards into at least the 400s AD.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 00:59
|
|
|
India kept using elephants for a really long time, but they both had direct access to wild elephants (much cheaper than importing) and had a strong cultural association between elephantry and kingliness, so a king wouldn't be seen dead on the battlefield without their elephant, even if they weren't particularly helpful
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 01:20
|
|
|
If the climate were more favorable to then, i could maybe see the roman military using elephants as living bulldozers
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 01:26
|
|
|
Imagined posted:Did war elephants ever work reliably? Seems like they were usually like these guys in old school Warhammer: War elephants were fairly frequently dramatic but they're never really going to be reliable, on account of being tamed rather than domesticated. Like they have some victories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bagradas_River_(255_BC) but yeah they're expensive and can be countered pretty readily and so on. I don't know how those guys were in warhammer but the Skaven version of them (censer bearers) were...actually a bit like elephants, in that they were difficult to control but outrageously devastating if you pulled it off
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 01:34
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Pretty interesting, though some of this definitely looks like it's just for show rather than useful. I wonder with melee warfare though if a lot of it being for show is intentional for morale purpose. It's gotta make you feel better as a guy in that orderly bunch, and it's gotta be concerning to watch them do that if you're on the other side, just on a "well those guys look like they know what they're doing sort of way".
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:07
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
war elephants are good, for a certain value of "good", if you're facing off against someone that's never seen an elephant or read about how to counter them. horses especially are freaked the gently caress out by elephants if they aren't used to them, so you can shield parts of your formation against cavalry by convincing the horses that your easily-spooked, expensive liabilities are actually giant smelly death monsters. however, it seems that most competent ancient armies were able to adapt to fighting elephants after a few battles at most, and if command was especially competent (e.g. alexander), within the first battle. is this momentary advantage worth the ludicrous cost of fielding even a handful of elephants outside of their native range (where they can forage and thus save you from needing to feed them)? not really.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:13
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:I wonder with melee warfare though if a lot of it being for show is intentional for morale purpose. It's gotta make you feel better as a guy in that orderly bunch, and it's gotta be concerning to watch them do that if you're on the other side, just on a "well those guys look like they know what they're doing sort of way". Oh yeah. The first time you and your rabble saw a Roman legion would be terrifying just because of the discipline and drill. The whole reason the Spartans had a reputation is that they trained at all, compared to other Greek armies, so they were able to pull off elaborate maneuvers like changing direction without falling into chaos.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:14
|
|
|
It should be noted that War Elephants didn't disappear from the Mediterranean because they were ineffective or unreliable, but because Mediterranean powers lost access to them. The Seleucids lost their source once the Parthians took over their Eastern satrapies and they could never get a reliable breeding program started in Syria. The African elephants that Carthage, Rome, and the Ptolemies used went extinct largely because of human exploitation, and African bush elephants are entirely unsuited to being tamed, not to mention far away from the Med. Considering elephants were still used for another 1500 years or so in places that still had access to them, I think there is more to their effectiveness than may be initially apparent in Mediterranean sources. Yes, in the records of battles that are extant elephants are sometimes countered and could be unreliable, but I don't think people would go to such lengths to keep using them if they were entirely ineffective.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:39
|
|
|
Elephants would also be tremendously useful for logistics and engineering, although I don't know if they were actually used that way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 02:47
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Elephants would also be tremendously useful for logistics and engineering, although I don't know if they were actually used that way. I think the British in India used them to tow artillery around or something like that, but I'm not aware of them having any military uses outside of actual battle in ancient times.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 03:13
|
|
|
are there any records of anyone using war elephants essentially as beasts of burden most of the time? They've always struck me as, as the thread puts it, kinda gimmicky on the battlefield, but that might be offset by having elephants to carry your poo poo around and pull down trees and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 03:18
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Elephants would also be tremendously useful for logistics and engineering, although I don't know if they were actually used that way. Engineering/construction has absolutely been done, elephants are fantastic at pulling down trees. Logistics they are terrible for, because as happens with increasing animal size, the larger the less efficient they are at calorie management, which is to say holy poo poo they eat so much. Being logistical nightmares is a substantial mark against them and frankly understandable as a contributing factor for why the Romans had like 4 chance to adopt war elephants via conquest that they bailed on. "Very strong, but very inefficient."
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 03:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 03:29 |
|
|
Tulip posted:War elephants were fairly frequently dramatic but they're never really going to be reliable, on account of being tamed rather than domesticated. Like they have some victories: Yeah at the battle at the tower of Charm the war elephants were a neat trick but the rebels managed to counter them soon enough. Don't know if the cost outweighed the gains. They did delay the rebels for a whole day which was part of the overall strategy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2022 03:39
|
|
