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That isn't saying commissioning a portrait is "commercializing the hobby", that is saying that commissioning a portrait is commercializing getting a portrait, which I stand behind.
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Jun 16, 2022 21:50
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^e: wait is your entire thing just about publishing an RPG book? is this the thing you're actually mad about?Absurd Alhazred posted:How is "exchanging money for goods and services" not commercializing the experience of getting a character portrait? hey bud you literally said this, you're very silly because this means buying a decal for my skateboard is also commercialization, as you quoted me and suggested I was being 100% right but not actually contending what you said Gerund fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 21:51
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Gerund posted:hey bud you literally said this, you're very silly because this means buying a decal for my skateboard is also commertialization, as you quoted me and suggested I was being 100% right but not actually contending what you said Buying a decal for your skateboard is commercializing getting a decal, yes. It is different inherently from making a decal yourself or having a friend do it. quote:^e: wait is your entire thing just about publishing an RPG book? is this the thing you're actually mad about? What are you talking about? What do you think you've figured out here? Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 21:52
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drat I love commercials
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Jun 16, 2022 21:54
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If you don't see how going 'not everything needs to be commercialized' in response to someone going 'hey getting character portraits commissioned is neat' is a value judgement I don't think there's going to be anything productive in this conversation.
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Jun 16, 2022 21:55
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Goon in a hole, digs down.
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Jun 16, 2022 21:55
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't accept that at all. This is a thread about TG as an industry. We discuss people's commercial enterprises all the time. The distinction between "doing something for yourself or a friend for fun" and "paying someone for products or services" is important. The fact that people find it insulting to use terms that bring light to these distinctions, like "commercializing", is some of the reason people are exploited in commercial ventures in this industry while being told they're part of a "community" or a "hobby". You didn't say "by the way, it's of academic interest to the thread how buying art work is an aspect of the commercial nature of our hobby, let's discuss that;" you specifically used the phrase as a critique, that people shouldn't do it. In context, you're saying it's bad to commission art work of a character, because that's commercializing, which is - in your own words - "unnecessary." You can hardly complain that people find your scolding to be ugly when you're the one couching it in that context to begin with.
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Jun 16, 2022 21:56
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Doctor Zaius posted:If you don't see how going 'not everything needs to be commercialized' in response to someone going 'hey getting character portraits commissioned is neat' is a value judgement I don't think there's going to be anything productive in this conversation. Somebody didn't say "getting character portraits commissioned is neat", somebody said "go do it, or better yet, go get a group portrait commissioned, pay artists". Leperflesh posted:You didn't say "by the way, it's of academic interest to the thread how buying art work is an aspect of the commercial nature of our hobby, let's discuss that;" you specifically used the phrase as a critique, that people shouldn't do it. In context, you're saying it's bad to commission art work of a character, because that's commercializing, which is - in your own words - "unnecessary." You can hardly complain that people find your scolding to be ugly when you're the one couching it in that context to begin with. No, I did not. "Unnecessary" isn't the same word as "bad". I said "unnecessary" in response to "you should do it". I think people should do it "if they want". Edit: I'm requoting these for this page: Froghammer posted:You should absolutely 100% commission artwork of a favorite character. Or, preferably, a group portrait of the whole party. Pay an artist what they're worth, they'll be happy for the work. Absurd Alhazred posted:I mean, depends on what people want to do. I know this is the industry thread but not everything about your experience needs to be commercialized. You can do your own amateur portrait that's fun for you rather than get a pro to do it, and shouldn't feel guilty you're stealing food from the mouths of starving artists. If you want a portrait at all, which I personally don't. I would appreciate it if you all stopped misrepresenting me and actually read what I wrote. To have a mod misrepresent me is frankly beyond the pale. I'd rather get a sixer, or a day off, or a week off, or banned, than be lied about. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 21:56
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Do you think every time someone encourages others to do a thing, that means they think you're bad or wrong if you decide not to? I encourage everyone to visit our nation's national parks. If you can't afford to or aren't interested, that doesn't mean I think you're a bad person. I think you might be missing out, but it's your choice. Absurd Alhazred posted:Somebody didn't say "getting character portraits commissioned is neat", somebody said "go do it, or better yet, go get a group portrait commissioned, pay artists". In the context you said it, unnecessary is the same as bad. I stand by that. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 21:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't accept that at all. This is a thread about TG as an industry. We discuss people's commercial enterprises all the time. The distinction between "doing something for yourself or a friend for fun" and "paying someone for products or services" is important. The fact that people find it insulting to use terms that bring light to these distinctions, like "commercializing", is some of the reason people are exploited in commercial ventures in this industry while being told they're part of a "community" or a "hobby". "people shouldn't pay for everything at the gaming table including the air they breathe, and shouldn't feel bad about arbitrary levels of commercial triage" is (1) I guess an okay point, (2) a dumb overreaction to enthusiasm for compensating people for art, and (3) a dumber hill to die on
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Jun 16, 2022 22:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I would appreciate it if you all stopped misrepresenting me and actually read what I wrote. To have a mod misrepresent me is frankly beyond the pale. I'd rather get a sixer, or a day off, or a week off, or banned, than be lied about. I would hope that you can see how this could be read in an implicitly negative way, both between the implicit negativity of 'commercialization' (because capitalism, etc.; mostly held as bad or at least Problematic) and because this is coming up in the context of artworks which will typically have audiences in the high single digits, unless the artist uses them as portfolio pieces. e: I think a lot of people do not associate things being done on a fundamentally artisanal basis (which is essentially all hobby-artist commissions, though I know enough artists that there are often some degree of legalese involved) with 'commercialization.' This may not be rigorously correct, but that seems to be the root. Nessus fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 22:06
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Leperflesh posted:I encourage everyone to visit our nation's national parks. You absolute monster.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:18
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Somebody didn't say "getting character portraits commissioned is neat", somebody said "go do it, or better yet, go get a group portrait commissioned, pay artists". You're being deliberately obtuse.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:28
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I really do. Responsibly, though. Don't litter, and don't feed the bears.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:28
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Leperflesh posted:I really do. Responsibly, though. Don't litter, and don't feed the bears. And in Yellowstone: 
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Jun 16, 2022 22:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Somebody didn't say "getting character portraits commissioned is neat", somebody said "go do it, or better yet, go get a group portrait commissioned, pay artists". If literally everyone who's reading your messages is "misrepresenting" you, maybe you're just not communicating your message well and it's time to step back, stop arguing, and just say the one thing you want to say and be done with it. I feel like your entire point was "not everyone needs a commissioned portrait" which is about as banal as it gets, but it's turned into a big fight.
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Jun 16, 2022 22:36
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Lord_Hambrose posted:drat I love commercials Pausing the d&d session mid combat to do an ad read for Blue Chew and Mac Welden underwear
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Jun 16, 2022 23:41
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I'm going to commission art of this thread. Bind all your souls to paper. Then feed you to the capitalist devils.
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Jun 16, 2022 23:47
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I'm gonna start putting in ban requests so Jeffrey can commercialize everyone's bad posting. And there's been a shocking number of bad posts today, boy howdy
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Jun 17, 2022 00:14
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With no sign of stopping, this post included.
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Jun 17, 2022 00:23
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Hey at least we can all enjoy the inevitable dissection of Satine's live insta apology thing that seems to be happening right now.
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Jun 17, 2022 00:42
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'm going to commission art of this thread. Bind all your souls to paper. Then feed you to the capitalist devils.
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Jun 17, 2022 01:31
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'm going to commission art of this thread. Bind all your souls to paper. Then feed you to the capitalist devils. I used to work retail so technically you're too late.
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Jun 17, 2022 01:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
Would it help if you just acknowledged that you just wildly misinterpreted the "you 100% should commission artists to draw a portrait of your character" post as some sort of moral imperative rather than continuing to bleed out all over this hill for some reason?
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Jun 17, 2022 01:35
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theironjef posted:Hey at least we can all enjoy the inevitable dissection of Satine's live insta apology thing that seems to be happening right now. Hell yes we can do that! Let's start right now! https://twitter.com/Ben_mar_moo/status/1537581323757711361 It's also on YouTube for goons with stronger stomachs than I: https://youtu.be/gxS_ImK-OP8 Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 01:55
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I theoretically have enough lack of self-respect, but yeah that's a no for me dawg.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:08
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yikes yikes yikes yikes that apology video is something else
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Jun 17, 2022 02:20
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https://twitter.com/TessFowler/status/1537581561276616711 "If I'm so bad why did you pretend to be my friend?" is some real "look what you made me do" energy. I sincerely hope this continues to put a dent in the idea that Satine has been an innocent victim led astray by her perfidious husband and not an actively toxic individual in her own right.
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Jun 17, 2022 02:23
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Ten seconds in and I wanted to yell "ACTING!"
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Jun 17, 2022 02:27
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I'm just clicking around because fake crying brings up some trauma memories for me, but dammit if I'm not invested and addicted to poo poo like this. If you don't wanna watch, but are still morbidly curious, but some things that stand out:
It's some poo poo, dude Qoey fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 02:52
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Probably should've practiced more
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Jun 17, 2022 03:02
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Qoey posted:I'm just clicking around because fake crying brings up some trauma memories for me, but dammit if I'm not invested and addicted to poo poo like this. If you don't wanna watch, but are still morbidly curious, but some things that stand out: Thanks for the summary, since I have no interest in watching PR, but this has been interesting for me since in my actual interaction with her she seemed pretty not fake. Like there were tons of people from that circle that you could see the switch go off behind their eyes once they realized they couldn't get something from you, and I never got that from her. Of course, that might have been because I was friends with people she did need, and she was smarter than some of the other climbers. It's also wild to me that there are people who've just quietly been burned by her over the past decade who never mentioned it, in a circle full of messy bitches who love drama. My current read on things is Jameson was probably the catalyst for supercharging bad stuff already there, and the two reinforced the most sociopathic urges and entitlement in the other.
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Jun 17, 2022 03:41
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Coolness Averted posted:Thanks for the summary, since I have no interest in watching PR, but this has been interesting for me since in my actual interaction with her she seemed pretty not fake. Like there were tons of people from that circle that you could see the switch go off behind their eyes once they realized they couldn't get something from you, and I never got that from her. I mean, if you've met her, you might have more perspective than me. It's been so long since I engaged with any content related to her that I forgot know how to pronounce her name. I didn't want to keep editing my first post, but near the end of the video, it felt like she was legit crying after trying to apologize again. Like, snot and actual tears and everything. I tried my best to actually listen to the stuff she was saying, but it was setting off poo poo of my own and I couldn't keep listening. The cynic in me is reminded of something an old coworker said once - that online apologies and rebuttals sometimes feel like they're "intentionally exhausting" - like there's so much emotional labor that goes into watching a video like this/consuming emotionally intense content, that it's hard to think rationally about it. I think that's where I got to with the apology video
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Jun 17, 2022 03:59
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I skimmed it and the only thought I have is who is this for and who does she think this would make up any ground for (or convince, for those watching from the outside)? It’s completely devoid of any recognition of her own wrong doings or semblance of remorse for anything beyond getting caught/called out publicly.
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Jun 17, 2022 04:12
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Coolness Averted posted:It's also wild to me that there are people who've just quietly been burned by her over the past decade who never mentioned it, in a circle full of messy bitches who love drama. The thing about Satine is that, however weird some people may think the concept of a "D&D influencer" is, she did, and may yet come out of this with, a degree of influence and sway in a tight-knit, often incestuous industry to the degree that if you were to try and bring up some poo poo she did then she could A). circle the wagons behind her legions of adoring fans and B). move to ruin whatever career you might hope to have in the TRPG scene. People have spoken up about her in the past but it's never amounted to much because they could be dismissed as random trolls or poo poo-stirrers out to smear an outspoken Herald of Compassion. What broke the camel's back here is that someone with a reasonable amount of clout and social capital themselves said "gently caress it, I don't care if there's fallout from this" and that was enough to get other people chiming in presumably because it would no longer be easy to dismiss them as, well, messy bitches looking to cause drama. This is how it usually works in elfgames, and other industries besides. Someone can be toxic, abusive, and exploitative for years and years unchallenged, but eventually things can come to a head and suddenly it all comes spilling out. I remember that while Palladium Games had always had a reputation for being domineering about fan works with lots of takedown requests and for producing lots of cheap, shoddy schlock, that it was Bill Coffin writing a huge tell-all post on RPGnet about Kevin Sembieda's terrible workplace practices and how he liked to gently caress freelancers out of pay by "stepping in" to edit their work (after telling them it was good riiiiight up until the last minute) and then giving them a reduced payment since he had to "fix it" for them (and he also slapped his name on the credits as the lead writer) which led to more freelancers coming forward with their own tales of how Sembieda had ripped them off and also generally behaved poorly. Bottom Liner posted:I skimmed it and the only thought I have is who is this for and who does she think this would make up any ground for (or convince, for those watching from the outside)? It’s completely devoid of any recognition of her own wrong doings or semblance of remorse for anything beyond getting caught/called out publicly. This is for her personal brand, basically. Even after all of this she's going to have tens of thousands of loyal fans who either think she did nothing wrong or aren't plugged in to what's going on and have no clue anything has been happening, and she's going through the motions of a standard internet personality apology checklist so she can say with perfect legalistic honesty that she made an apology for all of this, and then when the heat has died down she'll just try and go back to the way things were. I'm cynical enough that I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she finds a way to skate on by and rebuild from this, I'd love to be proven wrong because I think she's a genuinely harmful individual and shouldn't be allowed to continue her predatory and abusive behavior within the industry, but you know how these things go.
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Jun 17, 2022 04:55
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I don't think she survives this in any like major fashion. like the problem here is once the facade falls it's hard to get back in when you branded yourself as a ~herald of compassion~ and it turns out you were anything but and got outed in an extremely public manner, the people who would be hiring her would tend to be people who would be easily susceptible to other major figures in the "famous TTRPG person" who have spoken out against her, and general internet wave of people who would be making GBS threads on them for hiring her or bringing her in. It's the Adam Koebel thing, he showed up on some Kickstarter, and that thing got shouted down from high heaven. Because he was someone who made his brand being a nice safe person, and when that brand falls apart, the only people who have your back are the assholes. If you are fine with turning into like the polar opposite of the persona and just diving in with the assholes to still get play then that's an option to still like find work, but more than likely you just refocus your social media on your core like dedicated fan-base and monetize them for the rest of time. Like lmao, wasn't she supposed to be on that Avatar Kickstarter Actual Play. Wonder how that's gonna go for Magpie.
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Jun 17, 2022 05:13
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Yeah they’re both done. Pretty much everyone above them has said they’re done working with them, cutting off their growth as “influencers” and personalities. This also blew up widely enough that the general hobby want nothing to do with them or their projects. And certainly, and most key to their income, no freelancers will work with them in the future which was their actual bread and butter for their Kickstarter fundraising. Like I said earlier, they could probably eek out an income from their diehard fans that would forgive and forget, but their broader careers are over. And having tens of thousands of followers on social media does not mean they have loyal diehard fans anywhere near that number. It just means they’ve been aggressively marketing themselves nonstop. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 05:20
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Dexo posted:I don't think she survives this in any like major fashion. At the very, very least their publishing company is probably dead in the water. I'm not sure I see any way forward where they salvage anything out of that given they seem to have hosed over everyone it's possible to gently caress over and they have people demanding refunds and for their likenesses to be removed from products. I'll say this, I wouldn't put it past Satine to do a hard turn into the "I've been cancel cultured" grift given how cool she is being friends with dipshits like Desborough and her admiration for Jordan Peterson. I think in her case it would be a harder turn than others who made that shift for the reasons you outlined, her whole "herald of compassion" schtick generally being less outwardly lovely than you need to be these days to get in on that act, but I don't think it's impossible. Dexo posted:Like lmao, wasn't she supposed to be on that Avatar Kickstarter Actual Play. Wonder how that's gonna go for Magpie. They've issued a statement that they're "aware of the situation" but aren't planning to address it in any detail until some July newsletter or whatever. About par for the course from the company that brought you that sprawling defense of Zak only to mumble a vague apology once that mess blew up too big to ignore.
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Jun 17, 2022 05:21
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Qoey posted:at the 28:00 minute mark she says "If I've been an rear end in a top hat to you... please let me know." Feels like a really wild thing to say, considering how long it took her to take part and actually say anything It's another attempt to control the narrative, she wants people to contact her in private rather than have random public callout posts that get beyond her ability to spin.
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Jun 17, 2022 05:24
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I just can't get over the "Herald of Compassion" thing. On top of the inherent red flag of shouting to the heavens how nice you are, which actual nice people rarely have to do, it's turning your alleged niceness into a Homestuck splat. Or a 3.5e prestige class, more likely. (Also... herald of compassion? You're just letting people know compassion is coming?)
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