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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Persona 3 is the only post 2 game that manages to both be about something and actually stick to that throughout the entire game's writing. It's good. I'm sorry you're a child. You'd think that the game would be good, if that were true! But it's not. The game is paced like a nightmare, nothing happens in the first 80% of it, the vast majority of the characters are terrible (and I don't mean terrible in an "unlikable" way, terrible in that they're all boring except Junpei and Yukari). It can't even keep its core themes consistent for its entire cast (Fuuka). It's a badly told story. People like FeMC because the contrast works, it makes the themes resonate in way they didn't by keeping the tone more one-note and consistent. That you default to calling me a child over this opinion is bizarre, also. I'm sorry you're an rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 19, 2022 16:57
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I like that Persona 3 let characters have a plot that runs throughout the game instead of P4 and P5's "the character's introduction is also their major storyline"
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Jun 19, 2022 17:10
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Yeah that was great.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:13
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Persona 3 has many problems but I like how terse it is. Even by 4 the script had started to bloat, and obviously by 5 it was terminal. I think when people vibe with 3 it's partly because it gives you a little bit of space to let your brain fill in the blanks
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Jun 19, 2022 17:21
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Arist posted:Persona 3 isn't very good and the FeMC content is the only interesting part of it. I don't loving care about the male protagonist or his ~atmosphere of existential dread and despair~ because he sucks. They're the same character.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:28
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Ibram Gaunt posted:They're the same character. In what way?
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Jun 19, 2022 17:29
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No Mods No Masters posted:Persona 3 has many problems but I like how terse it is. Even by 4 the script had started to bloat, and obviously by 5 it was terminal. I think when people vibe with 3 it's partly because it gives you a little bit of space to let your brain fill in the blanks It also allows it's cast to exist wholly separate from the main character. Half their arcs and major moments happen with each other and without you ever present so they feel a lot more like actual people than the cast of 4 forward. In persona 5 Akihiko's breakdown and breakthrough over shinji would have been you coaching him through it after he brought you to the funeral.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:29
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does anyone have a good recommendation of JRPGs with gameplay similar to SMT? I loved the challenge and the skill choice aspect. Doesn’t necessarily have to be monster collecting.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:34
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Arist posted:Persona 3 isn't very good and the FeMC content is the only interesting part of it. I don't loving care about the male protagonist or his ~atmosphere of existential dread and despair~ because he sucks. He really is the DeSu 1 Protagonist vs. FeMC's DeSu 2 Bunnie. On the one hand we have two blue-haired kids with earphones and no personality, and on the other hand we have two lively, charismatic jokesters ready to kick rear end and have fun.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:38
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NikkolasKing posted:He really is the DeSu 1 Protagonist vs. FeMC's DeSu 2 Bunnie. On the one hand we have two blue-haired kids with earphones and no personality, and on the other hand we have two lively, charismatic jokesters ready to kick rear end and have fun. Ibram Gaunt posted:They're the same character.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:39
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People really have like invented an entirely different character out of "pink UI" and "a few slightly different dialogue decisions that don't alter the scene at all"
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Jun 19, 2022 17:40
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They're really not. Sure, the same literal events occur to both characters, but the color of the responses is wildly different, as are the kinds of people they're able to associate with.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:41
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Isn’t new dialogue exactly what would make a character different. I’m struggling to think what else you would need
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Jun 19, 2022 17:43
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Ibram Gaunt posted:People really have like invented an entirely different character out of "pink UI" and "a few slightly different dialogue decisions that don't alter the scene at all" Nothing the protagonist says in any version of Persona 3 (or any Persona game for that matter) "alters the scene," this standard makes no sense. Having different dialogue responses is the core means of control in these games, it's ridiculous to pretend it's nothing.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:44
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No Mods No Masters posted:Persona 3 has many problems but I like how terse it is. Even by 4 the script had started to bloat, and obviously by 5 it was terminal. I think when people vibe with 3 it's partly because it gives you a little bit of space to let your brain fill in the blanks Yeah little details like a character being unavailable for dungeon crawling because they have other plans were nice touches. I don't like how everything has to revolve around the MC in the newer games and nothing of serious consequence can happen to them ever. Also, I have to give it credit for being the most consequential with it's memento mori theme. P5 in particular feels very superficial in comparison.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:45
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CharlestheHammer posted:Isn’t new dialogue exactly what would make a character different. I’m struggling to think what else you would need If there were more than a handful and the story actually reacted to that dialogue like it was different from the old, yes.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:45
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:If there were more than a handful and the story actually reacted to that dialogue like it was different from the old, yes. That seems arbitrary to me. Like I don’t really think either thing matters at all
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Jun 19, 2022 17:48
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I feel like people have just convinced themselves the female protagonist is an identical character and have just forgotten all the stuff that actually, you know, characterizes her. It's stuff like her relationships with Junpei and Yukari, which are notably different to the point that other characters will even point them out in their own social links. Also, it's not a "handful" of different choices, that's an absurd claim. e: also, again, the dialogue options are the primary means through which you interact with like 50% of that game, they matter.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:48
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I'm on team lady
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Jun 19, 2022 17:50
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CharlestheHammer posted:That seems arbitrary to me. Like I don’t really think either thing matters at all If you are talking about someone being a wholly different character then getting a handful of different dialogue options while everything else remains the same is a pretty significant chunk that is the same. Changing a dozen of Nathan drake's line in Uncharted to be a bit more cruel doesn't make him effectively a whole new character such that it'd be 'the only interesting part of it'.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:52
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:If you are talking about someone being a wholly different character then getting a handful of different dialogue options while everything else remains the same is a pretty significant chunk that is the same. Unless you've actually gone through and counted the responses, stop saying it's a handful. It's not. It was enough that when I played through the first two months of P3P again recently I felt it was meaningful.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:54
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:If you are talking about someone being a wholly different character then getting a handful of different dialogue options while everything else remains the same is a pretty significant chunk that is the same. That sounds like it would make him more interesting because Drake was also pretty boring. You can change his stuff without needing to alter the action movie he’s in that’s fine
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Jun 19, 2022 17:55
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p3MC being a loner and aloof fits in with the rest of the story and how the characters all are more like coworkers rather than BFFs, which is not a very common thing in JRPGs and makes the game unique. Changing some dialogue around for FEMC but not altering any of that other stuff just makes her seem out of place. Obviously they were not going to remake the entire game or anything though as that'd be crazy. But it's why I struggle to see why people treat it like some stark contrast that improves the game at all.
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Jun 19, 2022 17:57
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Ibram Gaunt posted:p3MC being a loner and aloof fits in with the rest of the story and how the characters all are more like coworkers rather than BFFs, which is not a very common thing in JRPGs and makes the game unique. Changing some dialogue around for FEMC but not altering any of that other stuff just makes her seem out of place. Obviously they were not going to remake the entire game or anything though as that'd be crazy. Personally, this undermines the male MC for me, because I feel no connection to him and thus do not care when he eats it. e: I also like that we've just completely abandoned the "they're the same character" thing now
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Jun 19, 2022 17:58
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fight over something more interesting, like theo versus liz
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Jun 19, 2022 17:59
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Arist posted:Personally, this undermines the male MC for me, because I feel no connection to him and thus do not care when he eats it. I think they're still at their core the same character because the game had to be 99% the same for both.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:00
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I think they're still at their core the same character because the game had to be 99% the same for both. This is not what a character is, hth. You're describing the plot.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:00
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Arist posted:This is not what a character is, hth. You're describing the plot. No. I'm talking about how characters react and interact with them is still almost functionally identical.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:02
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Ibram Gaunt posted:No. I'm talking about how characters react and interact with them is still almost functionally identical. This simply isn't true, though. I've already gone over this.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:03
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Also "almost functionally identical" is not "identical," you're backpedaling.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:03
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Ok you got me. When I said they're the same character I should have said "almost exactly the same" I do not agree at all that she's some huge improvement or change that dramatically changes the game for the better or enough for it to be a talking point.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:06
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I actually would be curious exactly how much dialogue one must change to change a character. Because I feel like if you can change some but keep the original the same then the first one must be pretty nebulous himself
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Jun 19, 2022 18:07
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FeMC is good because if I'm going to play as a boring nobody I'd rather look cute doing it.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:08
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The different tenor of the responses, however slight you may find the difference to be, works better for me and makes me care more about the female protagonist as a character. Also her OST and social links are (mostly) better.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:10
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The main plot might be the same, but the little details are different with just the fact that the male/female difference leads to different relationships between SEES. But also FeMC has very different responses (she's not even an inch of the rear end in a top hat the MMC can be, like he's the most aloof rear end in a top hat of all 4 modern Persona MCs), being very cheery in comparison. And given all we can glean from the personality of a silent MC is from the choices and actions in the story, that's a lot.Ibram Gaunt posted:p3MC being a loner and aloof fits in with the rest of the story and how the characters all are more like coworkers rather than BFFs, which is not a very common thing in JRPGs and makes the game unique. Changing some dialogue around for FEMC but not altering any of that other stuff just makes her seem out of place. Obviously they were not going to remake the entire game or anything though as that'd be crazy. But it's why I struggle to see why people treat it like some stark contrast that improves the game at all. Outside from "FeMC isn't an rear end in a top hat", I'd say that FeMC still keeps to the themes, but inverted. MaleMC starts as an aloof rear end in a top hat who slowly learns to appreciate life; FeMC clearly is more cheery and she helps others in her exclusive SLinks to appreciate life. If MaleMC is "memento mori" and FeMC is "carpe diem". Also some people just wanna date cute boys and a female protagonist is the only surefire way. On a note, I'd say that people are confusing plot with themes. P3 has the absolutely best followed theme of all modern Personas, specially since P4 and P5 both end up going against its themes, but the worst pacing of the three by far. Also somebody mention that the SEES FeMC links are lame and like... I mean, the development of the characters is given to the plot like original P3 so they're just gonna explore some other side. In all honesty they should be like that, keep all main/secondary character development on the main plot, use SLinks/whatever they do to explore an aspect or give more perspective and even gate them for plot developments if they would contradict those moments.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:12
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FeMC is a pretty different and more likable character with infinitely better social links outside of the one really bad one. MC fits the game's tone more but P3 is the weakest of the modern three games by a fairly large margin and I completely get people preferring FeMC since she feels like something out of the later games. The post above me is correct in that P3 does by far the best job of nailing its themes out of all of the games but the pacing is so loving dogshit that it hurts the experience a lot.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:19
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Outside from "FeMC isn't an rear end in a top hat", I'd say that FeMC still keeps to the themes, but inverted. MaleMC starts as an aloof rear end in a top hat who slowly learns to appreciate life; FeMC clearly is more cheery and she helps others in her exclusive SLinks to appreciate life. If MaleMC is "memento mori" and FeMC is "carpe diem". But MaleMC is already capre diem by the end. That's why you chose to stand and fight and then sacrifice yourself for other. Because that's the arc they wrote. RevolverDivider posted:The post above me is correct in that P3 does by far the best job of nailing its themes out of all of the games but the pacing is so loving dogshit that it hurts the experience a lot. The pacing is better than P5's and the reason FeMC is bad is because she does feel like the more a 4 and 5 character brought back into 3 in that while the set dressing is different, none of the ideas or choices she brings in matter. The good part of 3 is that it actually wrote a whole cast of characters with their own arcs and things to do and P4 and 5 wrote a bunch of dolls the main character gets to play with who go into a toy box the second he's done with them.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:32
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Persona 3's pacing problems come from it being an incredibly backloaded story. 4 and 5's pacing problems come from repeating everything over and over. I don't know which of those is worse in an absolute sense but I know which I personally find more annoying
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Jun 19, 2022 18:36
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Arist posted:Also "almost functionally identical" is not "identical," you're backpedaling. The same 2-3 bad actors got you worked up again, recognize the pattern
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Jun 19, 2022 18:42
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Sakurazuka posted:FeMC is good because if I'm going to play as a boring nobody I'd rather look cute doing it.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:49
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