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Hakkesshu posted:It will never not be funny to me that there are still people trying to deny that review bombing is a thing despite the fact that you can just... go look. Issue is, marketing departments now figured out to create review bombing when things are actually bombing. The Boys is getting a natural review bomb as it's generally a well received show that is making Trumpers angry. Things like this are not as well received, so you can cover the reception by creating controversy and making a review bomb to cover it.
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Jun 20, 2022 13:51
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You would maybe have a point if racists or MRA dipshits only targeted poorly received media when that has like... never been the case. To take a recent example, Turning Red. It's almost as if this is a general problem with the way media criticism is presented to us through Rotten Tomatoes et al, and not so much anything to do with the real world. You're just spouting insane conspiracy poo poo that cannot be proven or disproven but sounds kind of plausible except this isn't what PR teams in the real world do when they're at work. This is a show that has received mostly positive feedback, they are not trying to deflect anything. Edit: That RLM Ghostbusters 2016 review really broke a lot of people's brains. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 13:53
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Hakkesshu posted:You would maybe have a point if racists or MRA dipshits only targeted poorly received media when that has like... never been the case. To take a recent example, Turning Red. I didn't say this. I said it's Ghostbusters remake syndrome where the people making it spotlighted the sexist criticism and made it all about that to avoid all the rest of the criticism that said, no this just isn't a good movie. Or Captain Marvel. Etc. The contrast is something like The Boys which gets 99 percent positive feedback, but in the episode where they make it super obvious they're making fun of Trumpers, it gets review bombed and only outside articles point it out because the show is already well received. I worked in marketing, yes very much this is what happens. The cynical is for a reason. Edit: also fans of shows will blame the negatives on racists/sexists etc. because it's low hanging fruit. Other examples, Star Trek Discovery or Picard which get a lot of "too woke" comments that are easier to argue against as opposed to "this is just not written well." Edit 2: it becomes harder to "prove" because you have to go back in time and timestamp everything. Basically, it's: lackluster reviews > articles start coming out pointing out isms from Twitter accounts with 5 followers > comment sections become filled with people arguing > people who worked on the movie or the studio come out and make all the negatives about the bigots, ignoring the actual lackluster reviews. And the difference is typically how the movie/TV show is initially taken. You can't go back to the initial reviews once newer ones came in that were already based around culture war stuff without making the effort to see when each and every one was posted. It's more social media than anything, as that is used to magnify things. Darko fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 14:07
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My guy I have worked in marketing for 20 years, there is no such thing as an employee that is sitting around writing or commissioning fake reviews in the scale of thousands
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Jun 20, 2022 14:21
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Hakkesshu posted:My guy I have worked in marketing for 20 years, there is no such thing as an employee that is sitting around writing or commissioning fake reviews in the scale of thousands If you worked in marketing for 20 years and don't get the concept of amplifying things, even negative, to work in your favor, I have no idea what to say.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:22
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Darko posted:If you worked in marketing for 20 years and don't get the concept of amplifying things, even negative, to work in your favor, I have no idea what to say. You are describing a broad concept, not a literal thing that happens. I'd be glad to hear about actual examples from your apparent experiences of paid workers sitting around deliberately review bombing poo poo on a large scale. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 14:24
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's a small soundstage in the middle of a group of screens that show images rendered in real-time. So instead of using green-screen you have actual things the actors (and cameras) can see and react to. Thanks! Hmm, so maybe that's why backdrops have this weird sort of....fluffy feeling to them?
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Jun 20, 2022 14:33
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Hakkesshu posted:You are talking about a concept, not a literal thing that happens. You seem to be confusing what is happening. Nobody is saying Disney is writing fake reviews. People are saying that once Disney is seeing bigots trashing their stuff, they magnify it and blame all of the negative reviews on that to avoid the actual substantial negative reviews. This is very much marketing 101, yes, it's drowning the discourse. If your product is not well received, you can magnify the dumb criticism to drown out the actual criticism. Video game marketing pretty much perfected this before it spread to films and TV.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:34
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Darko posted:You seem to be confusing what is happening. Nobody is saying Disney is writing fake reviews. I'm sorry I must have misunderstood the time where you said exactly that Darko posted:Issue is, marketing departments now figured out to create review bombing when things are actually bombing. Are you saying that review bombing never happens in a vacuum or something?
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Jun 20, 2022 14:36
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Darko posted:You seem to be confusing what is happening. Nobody is saying Disney is writing fake reviews. People are saying that once Disney is seeing bigots trashing their stuff, they magnify it and blame all of the negative reviews on that to avoid the actual substantial negative reviews. This is very much marketing 101, yes, it's drowning the discourse. If your product is not well received, you can magnify the dumb criticism to drown out the actual criticism. Video game marketing pretty much perfected this before it spread to films and TV. When did they do this? Karloff fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 14:36
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Hakkesshu posted:I'm sorry I must have misunderstood the time where you said exactly that I think that was meant as create as in "create the movement that makes the reviews". Not create as in "create the reviews"
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Jun 20, 2022 14:37
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Hakkesshu posted:I'm sorry I must have misunderstood the time where you said exactly that I was responding while following up my last post that explained in more depth on the last page. It was the second to last post so I see how it could have looked different now out of context. I wasn't saying they were writing their own reviews. I was saying they make sure that's all you notice to hide the actual negatives.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:39
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Darth TNT posted:I think that was meant as create as in "create the movement that makes the reviews". Not create as in "create the reviews" That implies that review bombing never happens until there are news stories about it, which is very much not the case!
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Jun 20, 2022 14:39
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Karloff posted:When did they do this? Captain Marvel to start.
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Jun 20, 2022 14:40
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Darko posted:Captain Marvel to start. That film was largely positively received? I'd have to go back and research it but I don't recall anyone from Disney or the production saying that any negative reviews are the result of sexism. I remember it being review bombed which was spurred on because right wing youtubers were mad about a comment Brie Larson made: are you saying that was manufactured?
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Jun 20, 2022 14:47
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if anything, disney is defined by their silence in the face of all this stuff. i don't recall them being very vocal in the face of pretty much anything, which seems to be the main problem even when it comes to the kenobi show, most of the "official responses" i hear are either from the @starwars twitter account that's probably just managed by some social media person, or mcgregor's twitter video
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Jun 20, 2022 14:51
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:NOWHERE in the series is "it is pointless to resist fascism" text or even subtext. It's going out of its way to beat the audience over the head with HEY LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE AT LEAST THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING, EVEN THE CONMAN. Reva isn't working against the system, she's been corrupted by it and is seeking personal revenge and power rather than actual change. I did not write that "it is pointless to resist fascism," or that this is the message of the show. I wrote something quite opposite: that, while fighting against fascism, we must be wary of our allies. Antifascism is not purely about hurting self-identified nazis. As with antiracism minus egalitarian justice, antifascism without egalitarian justice is a fake. That's merely treating the underclasses better while you oppress them. The issue here is that you've created (or bought into) a dichotomy between the pure and the "corrupted", which is a distinction based on "actual change" - which you define as systemic change. The conman is doing actual systemic change, but Reza is not doing actual systemic change. Right? So what do you mean by that? There's no indication that Kingo the conman is an anticapitalist, for example. I suppose, implicitly, you're actually referring to a system of government. But even in that case, Reza is the one who is working to assassinate Anakin Skywalker - a high-ranking dude in the government. (Why are power and vengeance bad when Reza wants to be empowered as an impoverished black woman, and is seeking vengeance against fascists?) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 14:54
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Karloff posted:That film was largely positively received? I'd have to go back and research it but I don't recall anyone from Disney or the production saying that any negative reviews are the result of sexism. I remember it being review bombed which was spurred on because right wing youtubers were mad about a comment Brie Larson made: are you saying that was manufactured? As a counterpoint MS Marvel is also getting review bombed, but its generally well recieved by critics and audiences (and is sitting at 95 percent on RT), so there's no need for the same media blitz/cover for it.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:(Why are power and vengeance bad when Reza wants to be empowered as an impoverished black woman, and is seeking vengeance against fascists?) I don't suppose you noticed that the "impoverished black woman" was threatening civilians, torturing children and helping to find and murder fugitive Jedi as a high-ranking (and thus wealthy and powerful) official of the fascist government against which she was theoretically seeking vengeance did you? Yes, rest of the thread, I know. Arguing/engaging with SMG is a rookie mistake and I should know better.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:03
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kliras posted:if anything, disney is defined by their silence in the face of all this stuff. i don't recall them being very vocal in the face of pretty much anything, which seems to be the main problem Disney moved the black dude to the background in their overseas Star Wars marketing and I'm highly suspicious of the same dude not ending up the main (white) woman but being minority paired in the next two movies. It's even deeper than that.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Why are power and vengeance bad when Reza wants to be empowered as an impoverished black woman, and is seeking vengeance against fascists? There's no way you can be this bad at watching a TV show.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:09
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Darko posted:Captain Marvel started off at around the 75 percent (most Marvel movies sit in the 90s) range from even "trusted" critics on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. Almost immediately, a ton of articles came out from places like Vox, The Guardian, and Independent UK and were magnified on social media where they would be comment-arguing bumped, along with Brie Larson speaking out, about how it was getting review bombed by sexists (and it was, yes, on the audience score), which obstifucated that it wasn't critically received in a way that was hoped. At best this is speculative conjecture. If we agree that it was definitely getting review bombed by sexists, is it particularly odd that articles reported on it? Furthermore none of those articles represent an official statement from Disney, and so far I have seen 0 palpable evidence that Disney are blaming any and all negative responses to their products on sexism/racism. I have asked numerous times for someone to show a tweet or a statement to that effect and none have materialised. Their statements seem to be condemning abusive messages sent to their actors, this is something they should be doing by the way, especially as they previously took the option of ignoring it.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:13
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Valve Steam Deck posted:I like how "ignoring racist and sexist fans and their unrelenting torrent of abuse until it grows and grows and becomes un-ignorable" is now "exaggerating the racism and sexism of the fans who are just smol beans and nowhere as bad as papa disney would have you believe" and "woke marketing" Actually, I almost mentioned that I do tend to believe the Armenian genocide part. I have Turkish friends and have been to Turkey. There are some people there that are truly fanatical about that issue. I would put the number of people that care enough about a black person in Star Wars to take part in a coordinated campaign to tank a TV shows rating on RottenTomatoes to be much, much lower. It comes down to the ratio of true believers versus casual edgelords.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:19
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Karloff posted:At best this is speculative conjecture. If we agree that it was definitely getting review bombed by sexists, is it particularly odd that articles reported on it? Furthermore none of those articles represent an official statement from Disney, and so far I have seen 0 palpable evidence that Disney are blaming any and all negative responses to their products on sexism/racism. I have asked numerous times for someone to show a tweet or a statement to that effect and none have materialised. Their statements seem to be condemning abusive messages sent to their actors, this is something they should be doing by the way, especially as they previously took the option of ignoring it.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:24
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Everyone posted:I don't suppose you noticed that the "impoverished black woman" was threatening civilians, torturing children and helping to find and murder fugitive Jedi as a high-ranking (and thus wealthy and powerful) official of the fascist government against which she was theoretically seeking vengeance did you? Reza was pretending to torture Leia was a ploy to get Obiwan to run off with the tracking device that she planted earlier. And there's no particular indication that Reza is wealthy. (How much is she being paid? Like, relative to the mole-man?) She does kill Jedis but, from my point of view the Jedi are evil. I have noted before that Reza does a gratuitous cruelty at the start of the series (cutting off hands, etc.), but that's where I've stepped back and questioned that creative decision. Disney has a habit of having bad guys who complain about inequality and then randomly murder an old woman or something. (See: Killmonger in Black Panther.) The scene where Reza cuts off the woman's hand is especially bizarre because the woman just instantly disappears. Like, not even a sound.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:28
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Darko posted:It's odd that you had 10x the number of articles focusing on that after initial reviews came out lackluster, when Ms Marvel comes out with the same bombing (focused on race, as well), with around 5 articles from similar publications talking about it. A corporation doesn't do this directly, you feed it through your media channels or actors, generally. You don't often get official tweets. So, if Disney has so much sway over these publications as you say, how come most of them have produced articles within the last year straight up condemning Marvel/Disney's stranglehold over exhibition and the Marvel film's quality in particular. It's almost like Disney don't have any control over them and that those publications produce articles based on what they feel will get people to click and read.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:32
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Karloff posted:So, if Disney has so much sway over these publications as you say, how come most of them have produced articles within the last year straight up condemning Marvel/Disney's stranglehold over exhibition and the Marvel film's quality in particular. It's almost like Disney don't have any control over them and that those publications produce articles based on what they feel will get people to click and read. Can you point to those articles? I haven't seen them from the same publications personally, but the algorithms might just not have hit me.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:38
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yeah are we talking about the same places? i can't imagine ScreenFart or HitShits doing praxis
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Jun 20, 2022 15:42
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Karloff posted:So, if Disney has so much sway over these publications as you say, how come most of them have produced articles within the last year straight up condemning Marvel/Disney's stranglehold over exhibition and the Marvel film's quality in particular. It's almost like Disney don't have any control over them and that those publications produce articles based on what they feel will get people to click and read. That's correct, but in the same sense that white supremacists don't have any control over the Youtube algorithm. All parties involved are doing their best to take advantage of existing structures for disseminating clickbait. There's not really a coordinated plot, but the resulting pattern is familiar. Things posted on the official Star Wars Twitter are, inherently, advertisements for Star Wars. It's totally correct to be kynical about that. But there's also no conspiracy where Disney 'takes advantage' of racists to cover up the badness of the bad show that they made bad on purpose. They're not claiming the show is really well-edited, because who gives a poo poo? It's already financially successful enough (by whatever absurd metric) to get a second season, so Disney has already 'won'. Disney's advertised message is more "hey we cast a black actress in Star Wars, which means these products are crazy progressive! You should talk about them with your friends!" But, even leaving aside the obvious fact that Disney is an evil corporation, the politics of the show are just generic Marvel-movie centrism. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 15:53
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Darko posted:Can you point to those articles? I haven't seen them from the same publications personally, but the algorithms might just not have hit me. This is just a brief google. From vice here is Captain Marvel review bomb article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvymxq/captain-marvel-rotten-tomatoes-user-review-bombing And here is their MCU sucks article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypabj/the-mcu-is-not-art Couldn't find a review bomb article from The Independent but here is one of their Marvel sucks article: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/taika-waititi-movies-thor-star-wars-rita-ora-b2087199.html Vulture article about review bombing https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/toxic-fans-fail-to-ghostbuster-captain-marvels-debut.html Not about Marvel, but highly critical of Disney article https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/disney-is-quietly-placing-classic-fox-movies-into-its-vault.html New York Times Captain Marvel review bombing article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/arts/captain-marvel-trolls.html The ultimate Marvel sucks article https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opinion/martin-scorsese-marvel.html Karloff fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 15:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Reza was pretending to torture Leia was a ploy to get Obiwan to run off with the tracking device that she planted earlier. And there's no particular indication that Reza is wealthy. (How much is she being paid? Like, relative to the mole-man?) And I continue my rookie mistake. Pretending? She seemed pretty determined to carry through with it from what I saw. Also, that line of thought requires that she knew Obi-Wan was there, in the base, with at least one accomplice and she still let him go, something she knew (or should have known) would get Vader to nearly kill her. Reva has (at least access to) a really spiffy uniform, a lightsaber, a spaceship (and I kind of covet the Inquisitors' ship. If I was involved in an RPG in that era of Star Wars, I'd definitely try to get the rest of my party to help me 'jack one to use as the main group vehicle) and command over the various officials/troopers at her ocean base. I obviously haven't compared their paychecks, but figure Reva's doing a lot better than the dude who drives a crappy space ground truck from points A, B, C and back again while kissing stormtrooper rear end. Meanwhile, from plenty of other "points of view" we were much better off in the "good ol' days" of slavery when people like Moses Ingram could be bought, sold and flogged like rapable farm animals. Having a point of view does not make it correct. Especially since Reva specifically used the Jedi's compassion to make him reveal himself. Compassion <> evil. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I have noted before that Reza does a gratuitous cruelty at the start of the series (cutting off hands, etc.), but that's where I've stepped back and questioned that creative decision. Disney has a habit of having bad guys who complain about inequality and then randomly murder an old woman or something. (See: Killmonger in Black Panther.) The scene where Reza cuts off the woman's hand is especially bizarre because the woman just instantly disappears. Like, not even a sound. I'll admit that if some vicious bitch cut my hand off with a laser sword, I'd make every effort of quietly disappear for fear she'd cut other body parts off of me. And Reva seemed pretty okay with her inequality AKA being superior in power/authority to people inferior in power/authority to the point she could main/murder them with no real repercussions at all. Presumably we find out that Reva had a pre-Inquisition lovely life in episode 5 but having a lovely life does not make it okay to poo poo on others, just like being abused as a child does not make it okay to abuse your own children. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Everyone fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 16:06
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Everyone posted:that line of thought requires that she knew Obi-Wan was there, in the base, with at least one accomplice and she still let him go, something she knew (or should have known) would get Vader to nearly kill her. That's the plot of the show. Reza doesn't particularly care about Obiwan or Leia and is even very mildly sympathetic towards them (see the bit in Episode 3 where she briefly recalls her innocent childhood before remembering how it all went to poo poo). As with her other crazy schemes that miraculously almost-work due to her raw fortune-telling powers, Reza knew Obiwan would break into the base and escape with Leia. It's why the tracking device is there. The whole thing is a ploy to lure & distract Anakin. Reza has fancy equipment at her job, but that's her job. "Your ability gave you station [i.e. a high rank], but all the power in the world can't mask the stench beneath." The bald jerk character is explicitly saying that Reza will always be of lower class no matter how good she is at her job. quote:Meanwhile, from plenty of other "points of view" we were much better off in the "good ol' days" of slavery when people like Moses Ingram could be bought, sold and flogged like rapable farm animals. Having a point of view does not make it correct. And, like, whoa dude. The Jedi in the Star Wars movies are a weirdo paramilitary organization. They're not a racial group.
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Jun 20, 2022 16:33
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I think the Inquistors, as a group, is stupid and I wish they didn't exist
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Jun 20, 2022 16:35
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Sash! posted:I think the Inquistors, as a group, is stupid and I wish they didn't exist That’s the trick: they didn’t exist. Inquisitors appeared after the Star Wars narrative ended, as a retroactive introduction to the Knights Of Ren. Then the “Mutant Holocaust” plot point was invented to justify the Inquisitors. These things keep stacking up. Obiwan is not a part of Star Wars but the beginning of an altogether new and different narrative.
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Jun 20, 2022 16:51
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This is a slightly off-topic complaint, but while I still get excited watching the Marvel intro animation, the Star Wars one really hasn't captured that same spark. Case in point: they keep trying to switch up the iconic helmets and droids that the light flashes over and they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. There was a blue metallic sink-looking droid (?) in the last episode's intro and I thought they were trolling by this point. Scrub back to the beginning, you'll see it. You're telling me this unrecognizable sink is on the level of Darth Vader's helmet?
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Jun 20, 2022 16:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Inquisitors appeared after the Star Wars narrative ended, as a retroactive introduction to the Knights Of Ren. Again, this is not true. They were introduced in a video game as miniboss enemies for the player to fight, then expanded on in animated shows. You're reaching for connections that aren't there.
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Jun 20, 2022 17:02
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i coulda sworn that inquisitor poo poo was pre-disney, was there another group that was basically the same?
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Jun 20, 2022 17:03
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Again, this is not true. They were introduced in a video game as miniboss enemies for the player to fight, then expanded on in animated shows. You're reaching for connections that aren't there.
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Jun 20, 2022 17:04
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JazzFlight posted:I thought they were made for Rebels, the CG show. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 17:08
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they were apparently created for the roleplaying game in the 80s, how quickly we all forget poor jerec
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Jun 20, 2022 17:11
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