|
Omnomnomnivore posted:https://twitter.com/weilghost/status/1538258041316982785?s=21&t=oKV0_efnxhqnG9bslarXyA What I love about Greece is having enough mathematical capability to form a geometric model that predicts the retrograde motion of planets, and doing this without discovering heliocentrism.
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 08:17 |
|
|
Nessus posted:It wasn't just a siege defense weapon but you are likely thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_lance i did some more digging and this is what I was thinking of but your stuff is also cool
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 01:33
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:What I love about Greece is having enough mathematical capability to form a geometric model that predicts the retrograde motion of planets, and doing this without discovering heliocentrism. Maybe its because the Athenians had a nasty habit of exiling people for impiety when they started saying the sun wasn't actually divine at all, and was just a white hot spinning mass of molten metal
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 01:36
|
|
|
I like to think Anaxagoras was a Reddit atheist type and they exiled him for being a jerk more so than being technically correct. Given how they treated Socrates, it would track.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 01:45
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:What I love about Greece is having enough mathematical capability to form a geometric model that predicts the retrograde motion of planets, and doing this without discovering heliocentrism. a contemporary of archimedes, aristarchus, did propose heliocentrism, and archimedes even used it as the basis of a calculation for how many grains of sand it would take to fill the universe, although ofc his fudge factor for "how big is everything outside the orbit of the earth" was, uh, very wrong the major hangup that the greeks had with the idea was that there is no apparent stellar parallax (i.e. stars moving in the sky due to the orbit of the earth); this can either be explained by the stars being unfathomably far away, or by the earth being stationary. the latter seemed more reasonable at the time
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 01:45
|
|
|
Kaal posted:My friend posted this yesterday and it seems too perfectly timed for me to not share it. That meme is embarrassingly bad. I don't even know where to begin, but I feel compelled to at least speak up and advise you against posting it again. For your own sake and continued good reputation. Find better friends; there are some good works from Classical Antiquity about friendship, btw, maybe read them and go from there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 05:24
|
|
|
Parmenides posted:That meme is embarrassingly bad. I don't even know where to begin, but I feel compelled to at least speak up and advise you against posting it again. For your own sake and continued good reputation. Find better friends; there are some good works from Classical Antiquity about friendship, btw, maybe read them and go from there. Oh my God I was joking but you really are that guy aren't you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 05:39
|
|
|
Glad I still have some popcorn in the pantry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 05:50
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Glad I still have some popcorn in the pantry. Get your skull calipers ready, Parmenides is back and wants to discuss which of the Greek races is superior. It's the Romans anyway, you degenerate easterner.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 05:51
|
|
|
it's a gimmick account you dummies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:01
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:it's a gimmick account you dummies Yeah yeah and they also claim Alexander never met Diogenes but we all know the truth.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:04
|
|
|
Parmenides posted:That meme is embarrassingly bad. I don't even know where to begin, but I feel compelled to at least speak up and advise you against posting it again. For your own sake and continued good reputation. Find better friends; there are some good works from Classical Antiquity about friendship, btw, maybe read them and go from there. Xerxes was a better leader because he could round up more than 300 dudes to show up at a beach.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:07
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:it's a gimmick account you dummies Parmenides is one of the most significant of the pre-Socratic philosophers[citation needed]. Parmenides' philosophy has been explained[who?] with the slogan "whatever is is, and what is not cannot be". He is also credited with the phrase "out of nothing nothing comes"[citation needed]. He argues that "A is not" can never be thought or said truthfully, and thus despite appearances everything exists as one, giant, unchanging thing[citation needed]. This is generally considered one of the first digressions into the philosophical concept of being[citation needed], and has been contrasted with Heraclitus's statement that "No man ever steps into the same river twice" as one of the first digressions into the philosophical concept of becoming[citation needed]. Scholars[who?] This is a really funny string of [_] for wiki SlothfulCobra posted:What the hell is Athens doing up there? They lost the war, they just wrote enough poo poo down to have a greater legacy. They won other wars. I'm still constantly amused that the Spartan Hegemony lasted less than I've been alive and there's still op-eds about how my entire generation are babies. All of classical greece is like a teeny tiny little sandbox of world history but their written records are well passed down and fairly old so it feels like they're bigger than Hatfields & McCoys
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:27
|
|
|
they absolutely aren't bigger than hatfields and mccoys. pre-alexander greek history just feels small if you're familiar with literally any other ancient history, except maybe the old testament, which is similarly a document making mountains out of molehills a lot of the time. all of the bad op-ed writers and spartaboos are generally not familiar with much else ime ofc both the ancient greeks and the ancient hebrews have a lot of personality, especially since we know an awful lot about the lives of specific non-royal greeks in detail compared to everywhere else in the same time period, where you're mostly just getting poo poo like "and then I, Sennacherib, slew a hundred thousand Hittites and carted their gods back to Nineveh" or w/e Jazerus fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jun 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:38
|
|
|
mods change my name to scholars [who?]
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 06:49
|
|
|
Tulip posted:I'm still constantly amused that the Spartan Hegemony lasted less than I've been alive and there's still op-eds about how my entire generation are babies. Nine thousand guys! And I'm sure they couldn't deploy all of them at once.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 07:27
|
|
|
they had a double parent rule, a strict income requirement to maintain citizen status, and no way to induct new citizens. while the overall population of lacadaemon seems to have done fine, the citizen body of sparta collapsed over the classical period because it just wasn't sustainable mathematically
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 08:35
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:they had a double parent rule, a strict income requirement to maintain citizen status, and no way to induct new citizens. while the overall population of lacadaemon seems to have done fine, the citizen body of sparta collapsed over the classical period because it just wasn't sustainable mathematically lol stupid jocks maybe learn some maths from the athenians
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 08:38
|
|
|
European nobility shows that you can have a strict rule on your legitimate ancestry and still keep your numbers up, so long as you don't mind the physical consequences of a limited gene pool.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 08:57
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:
I thought they had conceived of the stars as a black sphere punctured with holes revealing the light behind it. Obviously that would have a parallax in a heliocentric system but something about the way you said this made me wonder if they had figured that the stars were objects in a black void Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Jun 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 09:00
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Leaving aside whatever critique of the critique of the critique of Sparta you want, weren't there like... not a loving lot of actual "Spartans"? Googling it suggests approximately nine thousand, tops. 9,000 at the start of their classical period. That number continuously declined over time. By Plutarch's time it's under 1,000. It's actually a bit of a fun lesson: Spartan citizenship was intentionally enforced as a deflationary asset (since that was good for individual stakeholders), which meant the system was in a continuous state of decline until it became really nothing more than a joke. There might be a lesson here for people in the 21st century.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 15:05
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:I thought they had conceived of the stars as a black sphere punctured with holes revealing the light behind it. Obviously that would have a parallax in a heliocentric system but something about the way you said this made me wonder if they had figured that the stars were objects in a black void Anaxagoras said 'yeah they are probably also really far away bits of hot metal like the sun. And sometimes pieces of them might break off, and get flung away by centrifugal force. And that's why we sometimes see shooting stars.' Once a shooting star hit where people could find it, everyone was like 'whoa dude this IS metal, way to go'
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 16:34
|
|
|
Tulip posted:9,000 at the start of their classical period. That number continuously declined over time. By Plutarch's time it's under 1,000. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
just as an addendum to barber chat, when you start looking at the extremely miscellaneous tasks that get assigned to pre-19th century barbers in most places, barbers start looking less like "the shave and the haircut" profession and more like "owns and is good at maintaining sharp things and related tools" profession. Why yes I'd like to get a shave and while I'm here can you fix my ingrown tonail and screw it pull that tooth while we're at it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 18:03
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:just as an addendum to barber chat, when you start looking at the extremely miscellaneous tasks that get assigned to pre-19th century barbers in most places, barbers start looking less like "the shave and the haircut" profession and more like "owns and is good at maintaining sharp things and related tools" profession. Why yes I'd like to get a shave and while I'm here can you fix my ingrown tonail and screw it pull that tooth while we're at it. yeah, barbers were surgeons too
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 18:11
|
|
|
body got too much of something? sure, i'll cut it out
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:and the macedonian empire existed for about five minutes but what are you gonna do Macedon as a state lasted for a good 200 years as the premier power in Greece, which is about 10 times longer than any of the hegemonies managed by the city-states. There is also supposedly another 200 centuries of Macedonian history prior to Philip II, mostly consisting of royal assassinations
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:11
|
|
|
200 centuries?
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:200 centuries? Leftover kingdom following the Finnish/Korean hyperwar.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:26
|
|
|
Homo sapiens have probably been living in Macedon for closer to 400 centuries so I'll allow it
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:27
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:Leftover kingdom following the Finnish/Korean hyperwar. but was it finnish, or korean???
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:35
|
|
|
200 centuries, i believe, would predate both empires so they may just been native belligerents that held fast, beginning a long tradition that the spartans will eventually claim as their own.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:I thought they had conceived of the stars as a black sphere punctured with holes revealing the light behind it. Obviously that would have a parallax in a heliocentric system but something about the way you said this made me wonder if they had figured that the stars were objects in a black void There were many different theories, but yes, you're thinking of Anaximander. Essentially, he thought the Earth was ringed by great wheels/rings full of fire. The body of the wheel has little openings, so when we look up we can see small sections of the fire, which is what we would call stars and all the other things in space. To answer your curiosity, yes, there were theories that described stars as objects floating around; for example, see Anaximenes. Thales, Anaximander, and Anaximenes get packaged up as the Milesian natural philosophers; they were all active in Miletus and kicked off the "pre-socratic" thing. It's hard to express the sheer brilliance, diversity, and breadth of pre-socratic, I will just say that with the rise of the Eleatics we essentially witness the absolute high-point in human philosophical achievement. It reached Athens a while later and, well, I guess they made some contributions in the field of ethics and politics, but otherwise it's a very steep decline until the rise of internet forums and our generation. But now I am going on a tangent. If you want a pre-socratic work that deals with cosmology in a very natural science way, with plenty of interesting takes, and who is reasonably well preserved, you should go read the Phoenix Pre-Socratics book on Anaxagoras. He was from Clazomenae but became very active and prominent in Athens; he was one of the latter pre-socratics who tried to open the Athenians' eyes. I will post an amazon link, but obviously feel free to obtain it from whatever source you like if it interests you: https://www.amazon.com/Anaxagoras-Clazomenae-Fragments-Testomonia-Presocractic/dp/1442611634/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Q8VMTXMXLJML& moonmazed posted:it's a gimmick account you dummies I'm not a gimmick account. I picked this username to honour Parmenides, for Eleatic philosophy represents an absolute high point in human thought. I have my own Neo-Eleatic work that explains this in a clear, fun, and accessible manner, you can find it if you like, but I doubt you're ready. Vincent Van Goatse posted:Yeah yeah and they also claim Alexander never met Diogenes but we all know the truth. The Diogenes mythology is the invention of bitter, late-Roman Republic Stoics/"Cynics" trying to discredit Platonism and invent a 4th century Athenian pedigree for themselves. Subsequent Romans ran with this fraud. The Cynic letters are direct, contemporary evidence of this fraud, and we also have compelling circumstantial evidence given Diogenes' notable absence in 4th century Athenian source material (no, your citation to Aristotle does not name Diogenes, pull the source; also, it doesn't reference any significant myths). Also, the circumstantial evidence of what would happen to some foreigner like Diogenes if he showed up in Athens during that period and behaved that way. I could say more, but again I doubt you guys are ready for that, and I don't feel like getting probated/banned today. Tulip posted:
This is wrong in so many ways. The Hellenic world stretched across the med and up into the euxine, and Spartan leadership of the Greek world lasted centuries. I don't know how you're defining hegemony, but generally speaking Sparta spent the 6-4th century unseating tyrants and organising much of the mainland hellenic world as it pleased. They had a centuries-long reputation for this. I'm not going to bother quoting all the other comments on Sparta. Yes, their numbers dwindled - they won so much there were few of them left. Dealing with the losers that surrounded them was probably very draining on their resources and discipline, too. They earned their great reputation and they will always serve as an inspiration for good people. Even when they mostly retired to the Peloponnesos in the mid/late 4th century, their traditions and sense of identity gave them the power to rise up and gain the attention of the world whenever they pleased. Similarly, the tradition of a single Spartan arriving on foreign shores and changing the tide of battle remained just as true regardless of the time period. The gods so favoured Sparta that, after witnessing their glorious revolutions of the late 3rd to 2nd century, they deified Cleomenes III on the cross, calmed his people, and let their city enter a blissful slumber under a Roman aegis. The story of Sparta is that of Kleobis & Biton writ large; the Spartan citizenry yoked itself to Hellas and drew her forward, earning that rest at the end of their journey. They remain right where we left them, obedient to her laws and metaphysical necessity.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
"retired" to the peleponnese because epaminondas kicked their rear end and freed their enslaved workforce
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
Post the manifesto, Pseudo-Parmenides, let's throw some poo poo into the Library of Congress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
drat that's a commitment to the gimmick
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:"retired" to the peleponnese because epaminondas kicked their rear end and freed their enslaved workforce and then became a hokey tourist trap for the romans. the ancient equivalent of The World's Biggest Ear of Corn
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:23
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Post the manifesto, Pseudo-Parmenides, let's throw some poo poo into the Library of Congress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
I will give our fellow poster this, they are almost surely correct that the average Lacedonian had a far more in-depth knowledge of Greek antiquity than we do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 08:17 |
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:"retired" to the peleponnese because e*********s kicked their rear end and freed their enslaved workforce That you would support a literal Boeotian says a lot. I will just say that he died on the point of a Spartan spear and that the 4th century saw Thebes paid in full for her actions. Jazerus posted:and then became a hokey tourist trap for the romans. the ancient equivalent of The World's Biggest Ear of Corn And you would probably describe Kleobis & Biton as two random guys who died of exhaustion. What can we even say to each other? 燕雀安知鸿鹄之志哉 Nessus posted:Post the manifesto, Pseudo-Parmenides, let's throw some poo poo into the Library of Congress. Sarern posted:Post the manifesto, Pseudo-Parmenides, let's throw some poo poo into the Library of Congress. https://antiquitystudio.com/AntiquityStudio.html Parmenides fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2022 23:44
|
|