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MikeJF posted:The original Bird of Prey was designed to be a stolen Federation design before that was cut and it was just made Romulan, so it fits that the movie Bird of Prey was designed to be a stolen Romulan ship before that was cut and it was just made Klingon. It'd fit right in. Even had the same bridge bump, and everything.
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Jun 20, 2022 05:14
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One thing I do know about the design of the Bird of Prey is that it's meant to look like a guy flexing from the front. MikeJF posted:It was a Probert design, which meant nothing was simply flat and the whole thing was made of complex curves that the model-makers cursed him over. Yea it was probably cheaper to just make it flat. It was in that set of 3 where you got it, the bird of prey and the warbird.
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Jun 20, 2022 05:22
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Madurai posted:It'd fit right in. Even had the same bridge bump, and everything. Oh yeah, if you look at it without the romulan paintjob and lighting it's very clear how it was meant to be a smaller Federation ship   Saucer shape, bridge bump, cylindrical engines with the dome at the front and the same black bit with an angled slice at the back. It's basically a TOS miranda equivalent. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 05:24
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Timby posted:The Bird of Prey is entirely the fault of Nilo Rodis at ILM, and to a lesser extent Harve Bennett and Nimoy; the latter two didn't really care about designs. Which is how we got the Romulan Bird of Prey becoming a Klingon vessel, even though they'd never had avian imagery before, and the idiotic mushroom design for Spacedock. awww, I really like space dock
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Jun 20, 2022 09:42
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Space Dock is fine too me, I just assume it's mostly hollow. It's a big hollow mushroom for big ships on top of a big hollow tube with little ships inside.
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Jun 20, 2022 09:48
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Spacedock is cool and good because it's the primary inspiration for HIGH CHARITY, COVENANT HOLY CITY, NINTH AGE OF RECLAMATION, which is one of the coolest space cities ever.
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Jun 20, 2022 15:05
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Arc Hammer posted:Spacedock is cool and good because it's the primary inspiration for HIGH CHARITY, COVENANT HOLY CITY, NINTH AGE OF RECLAMATION, which is one of the coolest space cities ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltdgc4qi1z0
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Jun 20, 2022 15:46
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Is that the show or from the game? And yea Spacedock rules.
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Jun 20, 2022 19:42
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twistedmentat posted:Is that the show or from the game? That's from Halo 2 Anniversary, with some creative liberties on the part of gunny there.
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Jun 20, 2022 20:19
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at the time Spacedock looked grand and majestic and really cool to me, and i still consider it a classic, much like 
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Jun 20, 2022 23:31
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I used to have a little headcanon that spacedock's kinda wierd multi-layered structure was because it's the result of multiple expansions, something like
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Jun 21, 2022 01:19
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MikeJF posted:I used to have a little headcanon that spacedock's kinda wierd multi-layered structure was because it's the result of multiple expansions, something like This is... Actually pretty clever from an engineering standpoint because as technology improved, not only would ships get bigger but the required interior volume capacity, service volume capacity and energy capacy of a station would also have to increase as a direct consequence in order to keep up. In practice, the upper antenna would likely be elevated each time, akin to a cap so another concentric ring would go around it with new equipment each time so there would be multi-generational redundancy (ie, diversity of systems for the sake of ensuring any problem which knocks out one system doesn't knock out all systems) which is a real thing you see in navies above a certain size.
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Jun 21, 2022 01:43
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That is the most Star Trek bending over backwards / mental gymnastics fan retcon that I've seen in a while, bravo! I always appreciate a Trek fan retcon much more than the usual "they're all secretly a Jedi!" Star Wars similar bullshit.
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Jun 21, 2022 02:32
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jeeves posted:That is the most Star Trek bending over backwards / mental gymnastics fan retcon that I've seen in a while, bravo! This one at least makes sense. My favorite is “actually, the Klingons built several variants of the Bird of Prey that are 100% externally identical except for the size”
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Jun 21, 2022 02:49
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david_a posted:This one at least makes sense. My favorite is “actually, the Klingons built several variants of the Bird of Prey that are 100% externally identical except for the size” I can see this being a deliberate tactic to gently caress with the ability of your enemy to properly determine your range if certain range-finding techniques aren't able to function reliably due to hull design characteristics. If they can't determine your range, then they also can't determine your velocity, which breaks most of the lead pursuit math used to estimate the future positions of objects and their potential tactical decisions to read winning/losing queues to perform continued evaluation of tactical positioning -- and this is literally a principle fighters have exploited when within ranges where radar and IR sensing equipment start having problems (weapon engagement zone minimum).  Even the SU-57 Felon, Russia's newest 5th-generation fighter, is known to do this in some of its camouflage patterns to interfere with the capacity for pilots to judge its relative position and for IRST systems to adequately work due to the reflectance/absorbance of the differing paints varying enough to mess with the silhouette judgement performed by the classifier of an opponent's InfraRed Search and Track pod or integrated system. This is hugely problematic not only when you are using projectile weapons, but also because if you're fighting over long distances, there's going to be a minimum abort-range at which you can commit to an evasive action and screwing with range-perception denies your opponent the capacity to do this meaningfully -- I imagine the hard-counter to this is the coordination of ship sensors from many perspectives so that the same principles which enable binocular sighting can perform the range-finding but then jamming would also limit the effectiveness of this too. I think committing to this deliberately as one of the primary design factors of an entire platform is a bit wild but maybe there's something about the hull design or some subtle use of cloaking technology that isn't clearly disclosed to us that enables these kinds of tactics, especially during the initial decloak phase. I really like "guessing" and reverse-engineering these kinds of things in fiction, to come up with reasons why a dumb decision in a show could hypothetically make sense as some bizarre nth-level extrusion of a real concept in high-tech warfare. If I could be paid to do this for a living, I'd be disgustingly happy. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 03:03
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david_a posted:This one at least makes sense. My favorite is “actually, the Klingons built several variants of the Bird of Prey that are 100% externally identical except for the size” Well that one comes from the fact that TNG used the model to depict them as cruiser-size ships nearly as big as the Enterprise because they didn't have time/money to build a decent new model. There's not much you can do but come up with terrible retcons when it's just on-screen like that. Okuda actually kitbashed up an initial model for the K'vort (the cruiser-size uses of the Bird of Prey model) but it was decided it wasn't detailed enough for hero shots and it'd be too much time/budget to redo it up to filming spec.  It's a real pity that even if it wasn't enough for full-on shots that they didn't keep it around and use it in the background of Klingon fleet shots later on. But yeah, people underestimate now just how hard getting a new model was back then. Almost all of TNG's ships were from the movies or made in the initial season 1 development run, and the only proper contemporary of the Enterprise-D was the Nebula, and apparently that took a big effort https://twitter.com/MikeOkuda/status/1278119564492992513?t=DPV2itqrDQJpFhWGbowD2g&s=19 https://twitter.com/MikeOkuda/status/1278122870120386560?t=qT5E6Gtp7DDphNGkTksexw&s=19 Most of the models MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 03:05
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MikeJF posted:Well that one comes from the fact that TNG used the model to depict them as cruiser-size ships nearly as big as the Enterprise because they didn't have time/money to build a decent new model. There's not much you can do but come up with terrible retcons when it's just on-screen like that. Looking up Michael's work ended up showing me this and I'm in love with it.  source I desperately hope it has that under-hull still going on (albeit streamlined ideally) because I've always loved that drat thing so much. Thinking about it, I figured the stock Oberth has some telescoping hatch to its lower hull which was deliberately isolated. If the warp-core was actually topside and not bottom-side, the Oberth would have been a phenomenal way to isolate an operating vessel from a payload section to ensure potential research which had the risk of contamination could be safely managed -- and double-points if that bottom section were modular. That would have made SO much more sense. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 03:23
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Yeah, one of the fanwanks theories that the oberth proper is just the upper ship, which is basically a tug, and it can operate by itself or haul lower modules in many configurations depending on what a given build needs to do. Kinda like a smaller version of the Ptolemy: in the 1970s fluff, the Ptolemy was the backbone of the Federation, starships mass-produced in huge quantities like this:   Which operated as tankers, freighters, passenger liners, troop transports, medical ships, just about everything the civilian Federation needed, depending on which type of modules they hauled. Easier to churn out a Ptolemy and build a new type of pod than it is to design and build a specialised new ship. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 03:40
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MikeJF posted:Yeah, one of the fanwanks theories that the oberth proper is just the upper ship, which is basically a tug, and it can operate by itself or haul lower modules in many configurations depending on what a given build needs to do. I'd say its less fanwank and more just a very easy conclusion to come to based on its shape and why one would even want that much deliberate separation.
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Jun 21, 2022 03:54
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MikeJF posted:Kinda like a smaller version of the Ptolemy. Huh, made me think of this.  https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/CBS-70_Ptolemaios http://gundamguy.blogspot.com/2014/08/1400-cbs-70-ptolemaios-customized-build.html
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Jun 21, 2022 03:58
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They managed to finally show one of the freighter ships that would keep the Federation running in Enterprise. One of the castmembers was born and raised on a freighter trucking between planets. This is only relevant in one episode.
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Jun 21, 2022 04:44
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Mmm. Those were just called out as freighters though. I just like the idea that when you get down to it, if it's hauling a train there's not really any need for a difference between a freighter and a passenger ship and other purposes: it's just a difference of what gets plugged on the back and you can just mass-produce the locomotive to serve all the different types (albiet with some variations for levels of space-tourque and space-efficiency). (SPACE TRAINS CHOO CHOO) They played with that a bit in Avenue 5 too: the giant luxury space cruise ship is actually a second-hand cargo ship with a cruise ship bolted on the front. If you keep a look out when they go down the back all the signage is in mandarin.  (Avenue 5 looks wrong without the poop shroud) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 04:46
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I figure the Oberth's lower section is just a highly automated equipment bay, with tankage and sensors and other poo poo that doesn't need frequent access. It's not a frontline combatant so it doesn't need to have the same resiliency and ease of repair access that a Class 1 Starship would. Hell, maybe that's even where the main reactor sits, and it's just a lower power unit that can be serviced infrequently because it's not a high-strung warp 9 engine. People have talked in the past about tiny turbo lifts or crawl ways in the pylons, or even possibly having to go EVA, but really it could well be typically accessed via transporter. And before you rush to "well before TNG came out, intraship beaming was very risky!", I'll point out that Phase 2 pre-production designs included one-person transporter pads throughout the ship, connected by waveguides, so the concept was certainly not unthinkable prior to TNG. Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 07:47
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Expo70 posted:I can see this being a deliberate tactic to gently caress with the ability of your enemy to properly determine your range if certain range-finding techniques aren't able to function reliably due to hull design characteristics. More spacecraft should have Dazzle Camo 
Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 08:34
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MikeJF posted:But yeah, people underestimate now just how hard getting a new model was back then. Almost all of TNG's ships were from the movies or made in the initial season 1 development run, and the only proper contemporary of the Enterprise-D was the Nebula, and apparently that took a big effort I'm glad, cos I really love the Nebula
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Jun 21, 2022 11:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:They managed to finally show one of the freighter ships that would keep the Federation running in Enterprise. One of the castmembers was born and raised on a freighter trucking between planets. This is literally just Spacetruckers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOqLOErhZA not to be confused with Space Trucker Bruce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcOaAqGBWLo Hell, even Bebop referenced it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w1kG8z7bo8 I get that its very logical to position containers radially and three is a nice number but come on. If that deflector fails, that crew is dead instantly with the location and design of that cab if it doesn't come out of warp well in advance or even if its moving at high impulse through any remotely populated area. Expo70 fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 12:39
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:More spacecraft should have Dazzle Camo I've always enjoyed that the reason the Taiidani ships in Homeworld are yellow and red is because space around them is because of all the dust clouds and nebulas
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Jun 21, 2022 14:18
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As an aside everyone should watch Space Truckers.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:22
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Every time I see a spaceship tractor tug with a train of containers behind it, all I see is this:
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Jun 21, 2022 17:46
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This might be my favorite shot across all of Star Trek: "I'm an alien spaceship from the future, stop murdering whales, assholes."
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Jun 22, 2022 00:43
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"You're going to go home and rethink your life." "I'm going to go home and rethink my life."
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Jun 22, 2022 05:28
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Expo70 posted:If that deflector fails, that crew is dead instantly with the location and design of that cab if it doesn't come out of warp well in advance or even if its moving at high impulse through any remotely populated area. I don't think it really matters where the cab is, if the deflector fails at warp you're pretty hosed, whatever hits will go right through the ship.
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Jun 22, 2022 05:33
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Expo70 posted:... Holy poo poo that was an unexpected gem.
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Jun 22, 2022 07:29
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Animal-Mother posted:This might be my favorite shot across all of Star Trek: This is also a great shot in showing how big/small a BoP is. People have seen boats like that, so they can see that the bridge section is about the same size of the boat and imagine how much better the ship is compared to it.
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Jun 22, 2022 18:46
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twistedmentat posted:This is also a great shot in showing how big/small a BoP is. People have seen boats like that, so they can see that the bridge section is about the same size of the boat and imagine how much better the ship is compared to it. Yeah but that’s like the most infamously size-changing ship in all of Star Trek. It’s always exactly how big it needs to be for the scene it’s in.
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Jun 22, 2022 19:10
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david_a posted:Yeah but that’s like the most infamously size-changing ship in all of Star Trek. It’s always exactly how big it needs to be for the scene it’s in. There's like 8 different versions, one for each size!
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Jun 22, 2022 22:01
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david_a posted:Yeah but that’s like the most infamously size-changing ship in all of Star Trek. It’s always exactly how big it needs to be for the scene it’s in. That ship was shown to be radically different sizes in different scenes from the same movie. Compare that shot with the whaler where it's at least 300m to the shot earlier in the film on Vulcan where the crew were entering and exiting via the ramp, where it can't be more than 75m or so judging by the size of the people.
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Jun 22, 2022 22:03
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Something I realized a little while back when trying to look at boats was that there's actually very little space inside boats. Like if you look at a diagram of the interior of that boat, it's all cramped quarters. But all boats have a big open area up top that's plenty of room to breathe and walk around and do a lot of complex work. For a proper ship in the age of sail, that space will even extend upward for something like 3-10 stories into the air, because sailors will have to climb all the way up there to work on the ropes. But for most spaceships, that's just not a thing. Nobody's gonna hang out or work on the exterior of a spaceship unless there's some weird space science keeping atmosphere out there. And that's a similar restriction to most aircraft, but aircraft don't often have to keep flying for more than a day straight. Spacecraft often tend to have the form factor of airplanes, but they have the functionality of boats; they have to keep people bottled up for long periods of time. And it makes me think that a lot of spaceships would have to have a lot more interior volume in general just to give people enough room to live in and keep them sane. To make space travel viable to without the discipline of submarine crews. And since space doesn't have air resistance, it's more viable to just create more internal volume for deep space ships that don't go through atmosphere.
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Jun 22, 2022 22:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Something I realized a little while back when trying to look at boats was that there's actually very little space inside boats. Like if you look at a diagram of the interior of that boat, it's all cramped quarters. But all boats have a big open area up top that's plenty of room to breathe and walk around and do a lot of complex work. For a proper ship in the age of sail, that space will even extend upward for something like 3-10 stories into the air, because sailors will have to climb all the way up there to work on the ropes. Depends entirely on the rules of the fictional universe. In something like The Expanse, more interior volume needs more air and hull mass, so they those ships tend to be snug. Trek does seem to provide ample interior volume, at least for stuff that isn’t military vessels like Klingon ships. The Galaxy class is utterly enormous for the given crew size (see video below). Star Wars just doesn’t seem to care one way or the other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwx5uB0pyhQ
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Jun 22, 2022 22:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:Nobody's gonna hang out or work on the exterior of a spaceship unless there's some weird space science keeping atmosphere out there.  
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Jun 23, 2022 01:02
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