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Feels Villeneuve posted:The problem I think is that I hate systems where guns don't go where you aim them until you level them up How do you feel about games like Daggerfall or Morrowind where your melee attacks can just miss or your spells can fail? Not saying you're a hypocrite, just asking if similar but not identical mechanics hit the same for you at an intuitive level.
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Jun 20, 2022 20:43
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Deus ex I think at least does that well in that guns do go where you aim them, but you need to aim them for like ten seconds if you have no skill. So you can make a shot, but you can't necessarily make one under time constraints without points. I do agree though that I think it is better to have them be basically functional and just lean further into things you can do while being good at them. So if you need a damage boost you could instead make it so that you do more damage for hitting weak spots on enemies if you put points into it. I also like things like the new vegas shotgun perk that lets them do better against armour and knock people back. Extra functionality for chosen weapon types I think is better than just "gun shoot more good" Jack B Nimble posted:How do you feel about games like Daggerfall or Morrowind where your melee attacks can just miss or your spells can fail? Not saying you're a hypocrite, just asking if similar but not identical mechanics hit the same for you at an intuitive level. I definitely prefer deus ex to morrowind, morrowind's bizzare mix of actual aiming at things to be eligible for a dice roll is pretty bad even now that I understand it as an adult. Deus ex all your bullets do damage you just take a while to shoot straight. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 20:43
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Jack B Nimble posted:How do you feel about games like Daggerfall or Morrowind where your melee attacks can just miss or your spells can fail? Not saying you're a hypocrite, just asking if similar but not identical mechanics hit the same for you at an intuitive level. out of all the cool things in Morrowind i don't think anyone would say it had great melee combat
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Jun 20, 2022 20:54
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Jun 20, 2022 22:02
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The day Donald Trump truly grew into his office 
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Jun 20, 2022 22:11
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TheNamedSavior posted:That's...literally exactly the same as Deus Ex's skill system. Seriously. Except you don't get a level up to range till the last rank. lol the lovely skill system is the biggest and most common and consistent knock people have against the game and lol @ at thinking a 22 year old game from a different genre and era is a sensible comparison to even bring up
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Jun 20, 2022 22:18
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pong didn't have a level-up system at all and I guess it just gets a pass?!
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Jun 20, 2022 22:19
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Back Hack posted:Deus Ex isn't a perfect games by any means, but if you going to pull it in defense Bethesda I'm going to have to strongly disagree with ya'. Deus Ex skill system is pretty similar at the surface level, but their is a major big difference, Deus Ex skills are extremely limited resource, the devs designed the game with that in mind so that players couldn't be a jack of all trades; they wanted players to create archetypes and roles. A player that went all in with the pistols, probably did so at cost of stealth or being able to hack terminals etc. etc., where as I don't think I've ever played a Bethesda game where my character didn't feel or play exactly the same, across sequels in the series or different ones entirely. Also, with that in mind Deus Ex augmented their pretty bog standard skill with...well, augmentations which tend to flip the whole dynamic of the game on it's head. I think the concept of zeroing into an archetype works when your game has a set narrative and you can plan how the player will get points to level up. In an open world game those mechanics are more tough because you can "farm" for whatever you need wherever you happen to find some fortuitous way to exploit that mechanic. And don't tell me I was the only one who made 500 iron daggers and then went on with the main quest and got destroyed by dremora lords because the game thought my high level of smithing was my level of combat skills as well. 
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Jun 20, 2022 23:25
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Skill systems that just give +X to guns with Y description are super dull. It worked in the original Deus Ex because it had a much more engaging augmentation system along side it, and to actively encourage modes of play besides run and gun. I like Cyberpunk 2077. I think it's a fun game. But it's perk system is three layers deep and still boring because most of it is just +X to blank. Giving fewer perks that have a bigger impact on play is preferable to a bunch of poo poo that makes space goblins fall down slightly faster.
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Jun 20, 2022 23:43
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I spent a looot of time staring at the CP skill chart trying to find anything interesting to take after I'd knocked out the few good choices. Notably, I had the same problem with Fallout 4 but the horizon overhaul fixed that, and it's the inevitable Requiem/Horizon style over haul that has me salivating.
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Jun 21, 2022 00:18
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Yeah it's the sort of thing you can improve with mods but the devs themselves have so much scope for doing it better the first time, and mods are generally still limited to statistical changes.
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Jun 21, 2022 00:21
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That's one reason I'm excited for Starfield having both per level builds and per use perks; it'll give modders two different levers to pull.
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Jun 21, 2022 00:23
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I was more thinking that, like, I have not seen any fallout 4 mods that add in actual new functionality to the combat, it's only ever statistical tweaks and the occasional hacky conditional effect. An unambitious set of abilities initially makes it harder to improve later.
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Jun 21, 2022 00:45
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"Neuroamps" and other implants are mentioned in the on screen text for the cyberneticist background in the gameplay reveal. So might be some more abilities/perks through implants.
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Jun 21, 2022 01:15
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The shooting in Starfield somehow looks worse than the shooting in FO4. This game is gonna WISH it was as good as NMS.
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Jun 21, 2022 01:34
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I played it all in VATS mode because otherwise it just felt like a bad first person shooter and I don't even really like to play good first person shooters. I used real-time sometimes since by its nature you run out of AP for vats actions, but my high-luck vats build basically one-shot crit'd legendary enemies and it was usually worth just squatting for a bit or huffing some drugs to refill AP. I vaguely recall marketing for FO4 saying they had gotten some other company known for making first person shooters to help them improve from FO3's gunplay.
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Jun 21, 2022 01:59
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It's literally just one perk jesus christ. Why are we judging the entire game based on one perk? It's like looking at Finese in NV and thinking "yep, this game is dumbed down, Obsidian, throw in the towel."
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Jun 21, 2022 02:07
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ApeHawk posted:The shooting in Starfield somehow looks worse than the shooting in FO4. Well yeah, No Man's Sky is great. But to be fair the Fallout 4 gameplay reveal also features some lovely shooting from the hip and failure to hit molerats, so maybe the shooting in Starfield will be similarly better than it looked from the reveal.
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Jun 21, 2022 02:08
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FO4 is OK shooter wise, and miles better than FO3/NV, NV's excellent weapon variety and DT mechanics notwithstanding. I thought this looked pretty similar but we'll see. Would be nice if they could make a similar improvement as from FO3 to FO4.
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Jun 21, 2022 02:17
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The Shooting will suck poo poo, this is something I am not going to argue against. IMHO It's best to just play on Easy mode (unless it also effects stuff like resource management) and play the game as a semi-god sim. Maybe there'll be mods to fix it but gently caress that. Bethesda doesn't know how guns work. You can see a Shotgun ejecting entire bullets at one point instead of, well, shells.
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Jun 21, 2022 02:17
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TheNamedSavior posted:It's literally just one perk jesus christ. Why are we judging the entire game based on one perk? It's like looking at Finese in NV and thinking "yep, this game is dumbed down, Obsidian, throw in the towel." We didn't just see the one perk, we saw others that were just as basic, on top of they've been doing this one dimensional system for several games now. It would be weirder at this point if they made the perks in their games actually interesting. So me excuse if I don't give them the benefit of doubt Back Hack fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 02:56
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TheNamedSavior posted:You can see a Shotgun ejecting entire bullets at one point instead of, well, shells. It's a space shotgun from the future man
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Jun 21, 2022 07:39
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Back Hack posted:We didn't just see the one perk, we saw others that were just as basic, on top of they've been doing this one dimensional system for several games now. It would be weirder at this point if they made the perks in their games actually interesting. So me excuse if I don't give them the benefit of doubt The perks also seen are literal loving starter perks, of course they're loving simple. You don't start out with Meltdown in NV. There's 15 combat perks in Starfield alone, that's more combat perks than the ones in Fallout 4. Arguably as much as the ones in Skyrim.
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Jun 21, 2022 07:46
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They're literally letting you actually visit your parents in this game if you pick a certain starting trait, don't blame me for suggesting they might have actual effort put in this game, jesus.
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Jun 21, 2022 07:47
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TheNamedSavior posted:They're literally letting you actually visit your parents in this game if you pick a certain starting trait, don't blame me for suggesting they might have actual effort put in this game, jesus. Yeah, but all that visiting your parents does is give you a straight up 10% remembering to clean your room, stat boost. Lame.
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Jun 21, 2022 09:33
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We don't know what it exactly does yet but honestly, the optional 'have parents' trait sounds like one of the most interesting perks a Bethesda rpg has ever done. Could be great for RP'ing, a reason to return home to the family once in a while for a visit over the weekend. Maybe have a meal together. I think it's nice, it warms my heart.
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Jun 21, 2022 10:01
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it's going to end with me shooting my parents in the face because parent garvey keeps sending me texts asking me to help their settlement out
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Jun 21, 2022 10:27
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John F Bennett posted:We don't know what it exactly does yet but honestly, the optional 'have parents' trait sounds like one of the most interesting perks a Bethesda rpg has ever done. Could be great for RP'ing, a reason to return home to the family once in a while for a visit over the weekend. Maybe have a meal together. I just told you what it does. Now clean your drat room  . Buy yeah, that along with choosing a starting faction/area you live in, and/or religion are pretty positive signs they're actually putting thought into RPG side of things. OwlFancier posted:it's going to end with me shooting my parents in the face because parent garvey keeps sending me texts asking me to help their settlement out You'll never become dr_rat fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 12:00
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OwlFancier posted:I was more thinking that, like, I have not seen any fallout 4 mods that add in actual new functionality to the combat, it's only ever statistical tweaks and the occasional hacky conditional effect. An unambitious set of abilities initially makes it harder to improve later. This is kind of the bane of gun games. You pull trigger and gun goes pop. Be it a laser or whatever, it's kind of just shooting out some kind of projective that does something on impact. Maybe it explodes, maybe it turns into teddy bears. Who knows. But there are lots of mods for Skyrim, around like combat and such. It's more flexible because you've also got some animations behind your swings and such that you can play with. Though I'm curious if they'll do a vats type thing like Fallout, or if they'll use something like those "matrix mods" that let the combat still move but at a slower level while using AP. I thought those were cooler than vats and made it feel slightly more max Payne.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:52
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TheNamedSavior posted:They're literally letting you actually visit your parents in this game if you pick a certain starting trait, don't blame me for suggesting they might have actual effort put in this game, jesus. Sixteen times the detail???
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Jun 21, 2022 15:10
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The Titanic posted:This is kind of the bane of gun games. You pull trigger and gun goes pop. You can make a huge variety of different projectile weapons if you want to. Once upon a time, in the far off land of decades past, we had whole videogames based around guns that shoot sticky toxic goop, or sawblades, or guided missiles, or bouncy shrapnel. It doesn't have to be limited to "gun go bang"
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Jun 21, 2022 15:14
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Personally I think a lot more could be added to a sci fi FPS RPG if it was willing to make the various projectiles be relatively slow moving "energy" protective, things that can be dodged, can have all kinds of different attack types, etc. Low waves you jump over, attacks that target your location, pause a moment, and then land a huge hit scan, etc etc. Hit scan isn't a very broad palette. This was known circa, like, Doom 1.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:59
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Even if you want to include normal guns you can still include other options and give them reasons to exist, halo does that plenty well, bullet guns are there and useful but you want energy guns with different handling to bust through shields.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:01
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Jack B Nimble posted:Personally I think a lot more could be added to a sci fi FPS RPG if it was willing to make the various projectiles be relatively slow moving "energy" protective, things that can be dodged, can have all kinds of different attack types, etc. Low waves you jump over, attacks that target your location, pause a moment, and then land a huge hit scan, etc etc. Hit scan isn't a very broad palette. This was known circa, like, Doom 1. Check out Returnal.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:43
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Popete posted:Check out Returnal. Yeah this, Returnal is extremely good, and it's apparently coming to Steam at some point in the near future.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:59
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I said come in! posted:Yeah this, Returnal is extremely good, and it's apparently coming to Steam at some point in the near future. Oh that's good to hear. I wouldn't say it's underrated because anyone whose played it loves it, it just hasn't gotten nearly as much audience as it should. It's all around just such a fantastic game.
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Jun 21, 2022 17:54
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Honestly if I can just build a big room and put every space melon in the world in it the game will earn at least a C+ from me
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Jun 22, 2022 00:37
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bring back the pillow lady from morrwind!!!
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Jun 22, 2022 01:04
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can't wait to see what CBBE mods do with the space suit thing
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Jun 24, 2022 08:27
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this game's gonna stink big time and i'm here for it. gotta save one of those £1 gamepass months for this.
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Jun 24, 2022 10:14
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