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Vote to threadban Bioshuffle This poll is closed. |
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| Yes (Goku) |
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146 | 85.38% |
| No (also Goku) |
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25 | 14.62% |
| Total: | 171 votes | ||
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This show could not be less about individualism, the whole point is that even Homelander needs other people to be a “hero” and to love him, without them he’s just a malevolent god, and the titular The Boys are 5 people who all have to learn in different ways “you can’t handle this on your own, you must learn to ask for help”. Where are you drawing your conclusions from?
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Jun 21, 2022 13:12
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roomtone posted:
The supes are allegories for larger constructs. They aren't supposed to be taken at face value.
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Jun 21, 2022 13:14
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The supes are allegories for larger constructs. They aren't supposed to be taken at face value. do you think i'm not aware of this or something
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Jun 21, 2022 13:15
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roomtone posted:do you think i'm not aware of this or something
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Jun 21, 2022 13:18
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Wheeee posted:while everyone’s waiting on the next episode you should take a moment to read Dorothy Thompson’s 1941 article, Who Goes Nazi? quote:Mr. G is a very intellectual young man who was an infant prodigy. He has been concerned with general ideas since the age of ten and has one of those minds that can scintillatingly rationalize everything. I have known him for ten years and in that time have heard him enthusiastically explain Marx, social credit, technocracy, Keynesian economics, Chestertonian distributism, and everything else one can imagine. Mr. G will never be a Nazi, because he will never be anything. His brain operates quite apart from the rest of his apparatus. He will certainly be able, however, fully to explain and apologize for Nazism if it ever comes along. But Mr. G is always a “deviationist.” When he played with communism he was a Trotskyist; when he talked of Keynes it was to suggest improvement; Chesterton’s economic ideas were all right but he was too bound to Catholic philosophy. So we may be sure that Mr. G would be a Nazi with purse-lipped qualifications. He would certainly be purged. A lot of that article is very embedded in early 1900s America, but holy poo poo he accurately predicted redditors.
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Jun 21, 2022 13:22
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bust is correct it's pretty rare to mock the shallow gestures that corporate dickheads and celebrities make towards social justice while also explicitly condemning the alt-right in an easily approachable show like this. i thought the way the show used stormfront/homelander to show the rationalisations that the powerful/institutions use to justify fascism to be pretty on the nose too.
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Jun 21, 2022 13:22
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Well then it can't be individualistic. my underlying assumption is that the US media's current fascination with superheroes is deepbly embedded with it's idea of freedom being individuals who don't need to rely on anybody else - to the point where you have people who call themselves left wing but still think of themselves as individual units against the world then the other aspect of it where it's a fascinating power fantasy about 'what if YOU were the ultimate police, and said what goes', which is fun as entertainment, but it is so widespread in the current media output that i don't look at any single example of it as it's own thing, including the boys. the boys is a reaction by people who have the political awareness to feel bad about this state of affairs, but then go ahead and perpetuate it anyway, except 'our way'. this is one of the reasons why i'm so interested to see how the show wraps up, because will they eventually just sort of get in line with the right wing agenda and say 'THOSE idiots are bad, but fundamentally the rules are good', or will they somehow sneak past a 'no, making a compromise based on imposed morality is pathetic' sort of idea even though the show is produced by one of the nexuses of capitalist evil. all signs right now at to the former but it i'm enjoying the show on a basic entertainment level even though the writing isn't that great, b- i guess. roomtone fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 13:24
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Strom Cuzewon posted:A lot of that article is very embedded in early 1900s America, but holy poo poo he accurately predicted redditors. lol i was going to say she predicted contrarian twitter. crepeface fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 13:24
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Wheeee posted:while everyone’s waiting on the next episode you should take a moment to read Dorothy Thompson’s 1941 article, Who Goes Nazi? quote:
Oh poo poo oh gently caress quote:His body is vigorous.
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Jun 21, 2022 13:58
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roomtone posted:my underlying assumption is that the US media's current fascination with superheroes is deepbly embedded with it's idea of freedom being individuals who don't need to rely on anybody else - to the point where you have people who call themselves left wing but still think of themselves as individual units against the world The Boys is satirizing all the things you're talking about. The power fantasy is impossible to have when everyone in power is a corrupt monster, "The Rules" are fundamentally broken and don't apply to anyone in power (Homelander can do anyone he wants), etc.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:19
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yeah i know, let's just bring it back to what's actually in the writing of the show for a sec here to make my point clearer hughie says to starlight twice in the most recent episode, 'you and me against the world'. these are the 'good guys' - i know hughie is on his hosed Up arc right now, but he is one of the main if not the main good guys of the show, with kimiko and frenchie also filling that role in a very lazy and fetishized capacity which we're already gone over in the thread - like, just leave the boys kimiko, if you don't want to be here. Base covered of 'don't even participate'. So they write this line in for Hughie, with the dissonance being not that he is wrong, but that he is not living up to that. If he was being honest with Starlight all the way, and they were in sync, it'd be pretty straight down the line good feelings. Because that's how it was before he took the temp V, the power move. What Hughie is doing right now with Butcher - which I think is not just justifiable but pretty much necessary in the world of the show - is being compromised with this 'you and me' lie, along with his patriarchal bullshit being slapped on, to identify Hughie as wrong, because he's going nuts just because of how pissed off he is. The issue I take with that, on the level of outlook on the show, on the level of them even creating this idea for new conflict in this relationship, is that it's basically false. Homelander is, like you mention, the metaphor for unaccountable powers worldwide. The man can do whatever he wants, and literally cums at the thought. He WILL kill you, it's just a matter of when he feels like doing it. Your only hope is obscurity and irrelevance. So in opposition to that unmitigated evil, we have Hughie, Starlight, MM, Butcher - eating themselves alive over oh jeez should we really be doing this, in a collective sense, obviously all the characters have their designated points of view. I'm saying the writing is currently showing all signs of condemning Hughie and Butcher for breaking the power rule. Because Starlight isn't furious at Hughie and Butcher for killing people, they've both been involved in a lot of killing on the show. She's angry at them for taking power into their own hands, power nobody should have but especially not 'the good guys'. I don't think the dichotomy of power vs power has to even be portrayed as this sort of 'you become what you hate' battle, that's another choice the writers made I assume by default, because of the things I mentioned before, but even if it IS, to be saying Hughie, of all people here, is loving up, is very, very establishment of the show. So I suspect that's where it is gonna land. I think I am looking at this on a more basic level than the writers ever did and I'm not calling them shitheads or anything, but as a collective enterprise, the boys amazon product, I think this is what we're going to get in the end. roomtone fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 14:33
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I don’t really square something being “necessary” with something being “unjustifiable”, the necessity IS the justification, isn’t it?
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Jun 21, 2022 14:38
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roomtone posted:yeah i know, let's just bring it back to what's actually in the writing of the show for a sec here to make my point clearer I think what Starlight said was something along the lines of "we thought it was a weapon, an object that we could hold and point", and Soldier Boy will absolutely betray them all and gently caress everything up, so there's that. If you wanna extrapolate for some reason, it's like trying to get the CIA to murder Disney or something i dunno Regarding the central conflict, if this follows the comics, you might end up in the "Butcher did nothing wrong" camp at the end of all this, which will very much be a thing considering the online discourse so far lol
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Jun 21, 2022 14:43
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Becoming a bomb to blow up a bigger bomb is ok, as long as you accept that as a bomb you ALSO have the potential to hurt the people you’re trying to protect. Historically, there really hasn’t ever been an authoritarian regime that politely stepped down when asked to do so. Real change demands bloodshed. The Boys have to be soldiers, not politicians, because this is a war.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:46
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i don't think the distinction of soldier boy being a human being with agency saves starlight here she was fine to use the nuke to end all nukes when the nuke didn't have anything to say about it, but now that it might, she's against it
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Jun 21, 2022 14:47
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I'm fine with the moral distinction between an inanimate weapon and a bomb that is capable of arguing back and going off on its own mission. As shown in the philsophical treatise Dark Star
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Jun 21, 2022 14:52
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Seth Rogan’s going to Herogasm, as a favor from Black Noir after what he saw
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Jun 21, 2022 14:57
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roomtone posted:yeah i know, let's just bring it back to what's actually in the writing of the show for a sec here to make my point clearer imo the analogy of temp-v is of power that is outside the oversight of liberal democracy and/or the managerial class. in that, i agree with you that the boys isn't super subversive. i think the rest of it (especially the modern social media stuff) still stands up as a smart satire.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:59
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I’m still really expecting a big bait & switch with Soldier Boy. We’re 5/8 episodes into the season and haven’t actually seen him do anything “wrong” per se. Yes he’s blown up some innocent people but doesn’t appear to be fully in control of his abilities. Everything we’ve heard about Soldier Boy being evil and malevolent and violent and abusive has been 100% off screen. Compared to Homelander and Stormfront who both do something comically evil in the first episode or two in order to immediately sell it to the people. I’m over halfway through S3 and Soldier Boy just seemed like a good soldier who was then captured and tortured for 30 years after getting sold out by his ex-girlfriend. Even Mother’s Milks story is full of holes, all he saw was his dead father and saw that Soldier Boy was tied to it in the papers or something, he never actually saw Soldier Boy, at least not in the flashbacks that we’ve been given.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:17
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with soldier boy i think all the info revealed so far is that he's awful i) sexist to mallory ii) every supe on the squad hated him iii) he was physically abusive to a young gunpowder iv) no sense of his PR displays having real consequences v) he reacted slightly negatively to the gay couple then there's the show-adjacent material of him being a jackass at best. there's basically no hint of him being cool, nice, or moral anywhere. nothing that says irredeemable either, which is definitely intentional because people want to like him as an alternative hero to homelander and people like jensen ackles. they could either go with this or subvert it, there's no way to tell really because the setup is so obvious and the writers probably know people will expect him to be terrible. the more entertaining thing would be for him to be kind of a shithead, but reasonable. i'd enjoy watching hughie and MM try to get through to a knucklehead and ultimately suceeded, since this show has spent so much time showing lovely people continue to be lovely so far. roomtone fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 15:22
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He did murder his defenseless ex-girlfriend
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Jun 21, 2022 15:25
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he was pretty sexiest (and racist maybe?) in that old timey way. and supporting the cia and the contras i really hope he doesn't get "redeemed" as a good guy
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Jun 21, 2022 15:27
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roomtone posted:iii) he was physically abusive to a young gunpowder Did you mean sexually abusive? Because that was a lie. lol people are still misreading the gay couple scene He's definitely an rear end in a top hat though. It would be a funny twist if he was just an rear end in a top hat who wanted to do drugs and party and not some insane monster, but I doubt it.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:27
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gunpowder said he was knocked him around a couple times like "hazing" so physically abusive like roomtone said
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Jun 21, 2022 15:30
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Did you mean sexually abusive? Because that was a lie. i would very funny it if he turned out to be payback's version of the deep
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Jun 21, 2022 15:31
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No he was physically abusive, the wrong part was Butcher assumed it was sexual but Gunpowder said he filed the complaint because Soldier Boy used to smack him around.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:31
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Did you mean sexually abusive? Because that was a lie.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:31
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Did you mean sexually abusive? Because that was a lie. i said physically so no and the gay couple scene has been talked to death but it was there for a reason. they didn't have him freak out or applaud, he just went 'huh'. keeps you guessing, but it was there and won't contradict if he does a whole 'so we have homos out in the open now?' bit next episode.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:32
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Just because some people are personally too socially stunted to read his obvious and easily interpretable facial expression doesn’t mean it’s “open to interpretation” it means some of the audience is wrong, wtf is this “both sides” bullshit
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Jun 21, 2022 15:35
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The gay couple was there to poke fun at Jensen for not kissing Castiel at the end of Supernatural.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:50
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drunken officeparty posted:Didn’t Homelander *yeesh Purely because she said the quiet part out loud. If he disagreed with his Nazi girlfriend he would not have a Nazi girlfriend.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:53
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* whenever Stormfront talked about Nazi stuff.
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afroserty posted:Purely because she said the quiet part out loud. No, even when they were alone with Ryan and no cameras he would roll his eyes and suck his teeth like “yikes, uh, no, we don’t need to do all the Ubermenschen stuff”, the show takes pains to illustrate that his hatred is agnostic of race or gender, he hates everyone equally simply for not being perfect. That has a lot of overlap with Nazi poo poo but as Stormfront herself points out, actually being a Nazi is the unpopular part.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:56
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Can't wait for Soldier Boy to meet Homelander and become bros. since they're both trash like ~99% of super. Oh, and they're both symbols of American jingoisim, empire, and extremism. I may have missed something but why would Soldier Boy want to kill Homelander?
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Jun 21, 2022 15:57
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He wouldn’t, that’s why Butcher is trying to make a deal, to get Soldier Boy on their side to go against Vought.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:59
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Noam Chomsky posted:Can't wait for Soldier Boy to meet Homelander and become bros. since they're both trash like ~99% of super. Oh, and they're both symbols of American jingoisim, empire, and extremism. Revenge against Stan Edgar probably? It's not like anything Butcher did with Crimson Countess helped anyway. She didn't know he was coming and probably couldn't have stopped him if she wasn't restrained.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:03
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Bust Rodd posted:No, even when they were alone with Ryan and no cameras he would roll his eyes and suck his teeth like “yikes, uh, no, we don’t need to do all the Ubermenschen stuff”, the show takes pains to illustrate that his hatred is agnostic of race or gender, he hates everyone equally simply for not being perfect. That has a lot of overlap with Nazi poo poo but as Stormfront herself points out, actually being a Nazi is the unpopular part. IMO His disdain for Nazism is about social acceptance, yes, but it also has a lot to do with with the fact hat the Nazis lost. Homelander hates losers;  he prefers nations that don't get conquered.That doesn't mean that he's not bigoted himself, it's more that he doesn't like that Nazi loser stink.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:04
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Bust Rodd posted:No, even when they were alone with Ryan and no cameras he would roll his eyes and suck his teeth like “yikes, uh, no, we don’t need to do all the Ubermenschen stuff”, the show takes pains to illustrate that his hatred is agnostic of race or gender, he hates everyone equally simply for not being perfect. That has a lot of overlap with Nazi poo poo but as Stormfront herself points out, actually being a Nazi is the unpopular part. lots of liberals believe lovely things but don't like it when the implications of their beliefs are laid bare in their face. it doesn't matter that homelander may or may not believe in the ubermensch or white/supe supremacy, that's the logical progression of what he believes and what he materially supports.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:04
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Noam Chomsky posted:Can't wait for Soldier Boy to meet Homelander and become bros. since they're both trash like ~99% of super. Oh, and they're both symbols of American jingoisim, empire, and extremism. I dont think you missed anything Tho, even though soldier boy and homelander are really alike, they may be too alike. Don't see either of them settling for second place.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:05
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All it would take to get Soldier Boy at least pointing the right direction is lying to him like 'Vought sold you out so they could have the deck cleared to bring Homelander in' which is why Butcher won't say that and instead they'll gently caress it up somehow.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:05
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crepeface posted:lots of liberals believe lovely things but don't like it when the implications of their beliefs are laid bare in their face. The funniest part about Stormfronts last scene is when she starts talking about the ubermench army and Homelander is all like "You don't need an Ubermench army, you have me!" which is basically him stating that he is the ubermench.
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Jun 21, 2022 16:06
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