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Lord_Magmar posted:Because literally every one of those deaths is the easiest thing ever to walk about because it isn't on-screen, and breaking the fellowship is a narrative trope for a reason. I think that's really only obvious post hoc. At the time XIV had borrowed a TON from Game of Thrones, I forget if it was Koji or Yoshi P saying it was a book series they really loved and the tv show as still seen as good then. The tone of XIV felt a lot different than what the game became, there's a lot of really dark stuff in the margins of 2.0's msq to the point where it can make the city states feel as bad as the Garleans were. So FFXIV pulling off it's own Red Wedding, while the devs said they liked Game of Thrones, it didn't feel like something that everyone would obviously be fine from. The only two I saw most people say were alive were Paplymo and Yda.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:40
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Eimi posted:I think that's really only obvious post hoc. At the time XIV had borrowed a TON from Game of Thrones, I forget if it was Koji or Yoshi P saying it was a book series they really loved and the tv show as still seen as good then. The tone of XIV felt a lot different than what the game became, there's a lot of really dark stuff in the margins of 2.0's msq to the point where it can make the city states feel as bad as the Garleans were. So FFXIV pulling off it's own Red Wedding, while the devs said they liked Game of Thrones, it didn't feel like something that everyone would obviously be fine from. The only two I saw most people say were alive were Paplymo and Yda. Pretty sure it would have been Koji, as a fairly good amount of the Game of Thrones style stuff is added in translation as I understand it. Obviously I know it's not totally true, but ARR's supposedly got the loosest accuracy in the translation of any expansion.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:45
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Isn't losing "party members" one by one only to have them come back an old trope? I know Tales of Symphonia did that too.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:04
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I really don't think you're meant to think the Scions are for real dead, their situation was deliberately ambiguous and as mentioned an old anime/JRPG cliche. Walking back Nanamo was some nonsense though
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Jun 21, 2022 15:17
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Also maybe it’s just me but as soon as I saw that they all “died” fully off screen I assumed none of them were going to stay dead
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Jun 21, 2022 15:24
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No Dignity posted:I really don't think you're meant to think the Scions are for real dead, their situation was deliberately ambiguous and as mentioned an old anime/JRPG cliche. Walking back Nanamo was some nonsense though Oh yeah anime too, I forgot Sailor Moon!
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Jun 21, 2022 15:33
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Lord_Magmar posted:Pretty sure it would have been Koji, as a fairly good amount of the Game of Thrones style stuff is added in translation as I understand it. Obviously I know it's not totally true, but ARR's supposedly got the loosest accuracy in the translation of any expansion. thanks koji for black auracite = heart of sabik lmao
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Jun 21, 2022 15:58
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Was Nanamo a walkback, though? Somnus pops up on occasion if you know where to look (I think it also features in the Ul"dah starting MSQ?), so it wasn't really a reach. The resolution is still in my top 5 funniest moments in the game, though. getting dragged out of the expansion only a few hours in for Dewlala to meet you in the waking sands and go "we fixed it lol" is amazing. 
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Jun 21, 2022 16:06
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Eimi posted:I think that's really only obvious post hoc. At the time XIV had borrowed a TON from Game of Thrones, I forget if it was Koji or Yoshi P saying it was a book series they really loved and the tv show as still seen as good then. The tone of XIV felt a lot different than what the game became, there's a lot of really dark stuff in the margins of 2.0's msq to the point where it can make the city states feel as bad as the Garleans were. So FFXIV pulling off it's own Red Wedding, while the devs said they liked Game of Thrones, it didn't feel like something that everyone would obviously be fine from. The only two I saw most people say were alive were Paplymo and Yda. Incidentally I've learned when talking to older players that a lot of the 'really dark stuff in the margins of 2.0' were much more of the central tone of 1.0. Gridania's story is probably the most famous version of that, but pretty much the entire story was going for that bleak-as-hell tone. Knowing that makes a lot of the early stuff make a lot more sense, 2.0 was basically them desperately trying to get a more typical Final Fantasy story to function in a world more tonally inspired by Game of Thrones and The Witcher, and it takes a while after that for them to eventually become confident in the tone they really want and shape even the older setting elements towards that. It might also explain why elements like Gelmorra wound up under the rug. I can very easily picture some angles on stuff like the Duskwight's history fitting just fine into that original tone, that suddenly became something they REALLY didn't want to do stories about after the change in direction.
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Jun 21, 2022 17:16
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Vitamean posted:Was Nanamo a walkback, though? Somnus pops up on occasion if you know where to look (I think it also features in the Ul"dah starting MSQ?), so it wasn't really a reach. I think a lot of the narrative bumps and lumps involve this, although like I was kind of vaguely alluding to, I wouldn't be surprised if they made an executive decision to turn the story outwards into new realms of adventure and pretty far-off locations for each expansion. They could have logically just gone Coerthas (and 'old world stuff',) Ala Mhigo and maybe a bit of Thavnair or something (+ more old world stuff), Doma and the Steppe (+ more old world stuff), Garlemald (+ more old world stuff) etc. I'm not even sure the story would have been a great deal different, it would have just been slower. If it looked more like Bozja though I'm kind of glad they didn't 
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Jun 21, 2022 17:16
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Nanamo not actually being dead was almost certainly the plan from the start, but that doesn't really make it a good or narratively satisfying decision.
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Jun 21, 2022 17:25
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Cleretic posted:Incidentally I've learned when talking to older players that a lot of the 'really dark stuff in the margins of 2.0' were much more of the central tone of 1.0. Gridania's story is probably the most famous version of that, but pretty much the entire story was going for that bleak-as-hell tone. I could see that. Though I also kind of see it more as when Ishikawa got made a main writer, which iirc is around Stormblood. There were those moments in HW, but I really liked the road trip and how dire things felt, and while you had everyone from 2.55 coming back to life, losing Haurchefant and Ysayle still hammered home that this had stakes and was serious. But the tone did undeniably change to be more like a traditional FF. It's just that ShB then stands out as an anomaly to me because it had that dark tone I am into, but it's by the same writers as the more FF tone. 
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Jun 21, 2022 17:31
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WrightOfWay posted:Nanamo not actually being dead was almost certainly the plan from the start, but that doesn't really make it a good or narratively satisfying decision. I actually kind of agree with this, though I suspect the original plan also had a lot more happen before this reveal to make it less random. I also suspect the Garlians were originally intended to be involved which would explain all the talk about the new emperor, Garlian spy hunting, and cryptic lines about a deeper plot at play. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Jun 21, 2022 |
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Jun 21, 2022 17:40
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Heavensward definitely feels like the most "something changed midway through development" expansion. The core Dragonsong stuff is there but a lot of setup in the later 2.x patches is rapidly resolved or just pushed aside.
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Jun 21, 2022 17:56
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Trash Ops posted:thanks koji for black auracite = heart of sabik lmao They've played a bit with this since then. The cores of the Gemstone Weapons were all 'Synthetic Auracite' with Jobstone functions built in and turned up to horrifying levels. They are clearly treating the core of the Ultima Weapon as something LIKE Auracite, but there were special functions that were not immediately obvious. 'Heart of Sabik' sounds like a great name for a big, impressive gemstone. We just don't know WHAT functions were programmed into the thing.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:12
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Vitamean posted:Heavensward definitely feels like the most "something changed midway through development" expansion. The core Dragonsong stuff is there but a lot of setup in the later 2.x patches is rapidly resolved or just pushed aside. Also the trailer not really having anything to do with what was in th expansion
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Jun 21, 2022 18:15
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Gearhead posted:We just don't know WHAT functions were programmed into the thing. Tacos. Big dang tacos.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:17
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Bruceski posted:Tacos. Big dang tacos.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:20
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Badger of Basra posted:Also the trailer not really having anything to do with what was in th expansion The trailers are usually more about tone than what's in the expac. EW was a big departure from that interestingly enough.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:22
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Vitamean posted:Heavensward definitely feels like the most "something changed midway through development" expansion. The core Dragonsong stuff is there but a lot of setup in the later 2.x patches is rapidly resolved or just pushed aside. I remember thinking that Heroes of Darkness plotline, at the time, was incredibly unsatisfying. It may have been a consequence of having to share space with the End of the Dragonsong War plotline and the setup for Stormblood, but altogether it felt smothered. "Hi! We are the Warriors of Darkness! Bye! *Goes back to Home Planet* " Of course, Shadowbringers then came out and expanded on its ideas and in some ways made the original plotline better after the fact. But as it was it felt abrupt and unsatisfying.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:23
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TheWorldsaStage posted:The trailers are usually more about tone than what's in the expac. EW was a big departure from that interestingly enough. I mean specifically the parts about it setting up Lolorito to be a big deal and also Ishgard being attacked by a swam or orange Hraesvelgrs
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Jun 21, 2022 18:29
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Nessus posted:The beef soft tacos. In my heart of hearts I have a bad feeling that we're going to run into some iteration of The Heart before our trip into Lahabrea's Fun House is done. If we're really lucky we'll get a taco eating animation out of it.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:34
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Badger of Basra posted:I mean specifically the parts about it setting up Lolorito to be a big deal and also Ishgard being attacked by a swam or orange Hraesvelgrs Ishgard was attacked by dragons but Hraesvelgr being the representative was literally due to a mistake where they sent the trailer team the wrong model, it was supposed to be Nidhogg.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:39
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Lolorito in the CG opening is the one that comes to mind, personally. They've talked before about how the trailers take a year+ to make from concept to completion, so his role in the MSQ probably changed after it was too late to adjust his presence in the trailer.
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Jun 21, 2022 18:42
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Considering what we learnt of Auracite weapons in Bozja, and the implication of how Save the Queen was constructed in terms of the stuff we saw in Return to Ivalice. I feel confident in stating some forms of Auracite are by-products of primals or primal level beings. Ultima for example would be the source of the Auracite used for Save the Queen. Furthermore, that would mean the Heart of Sabik, the Black Auracite, may in fact be sourced from Zodiark (and in turn White Auracite is Light/Hydaelyn born).
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Jun 21, 2022 18:51
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I'm glad Nanamo didn't die forever because she is a lil' cutie patootie
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Jun 21, 2022 19:20
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the scions not being really dead was extremely obvious even at the time. It was clearly just that you were separated from them, with almost no allies, and forced into exile in ishgard. That's a hell of a low moment even if you might eventually reunite with your buddies. Nanamo coming back is bullshit though
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Jun 21, 2022 19:45
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cheetah7071 posted:the scions not being really dead was extremely obvious even at the time. It was clearly just that you were separated from them, with almost no allies, and forced into exile in ishgard. That's a hell of a low moment even if you might eventually reunite with your buddies. Aren't the scenes in the sewers where Minfillia hears Moms call and we see Ysh prep to do something drastic part of the 2.55 cutscene bonanza? Like it was pretty clear they were gonna make it possibly worse for the wear.
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Jun 21, 2022 19:50
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We all knew at least some of the scions were going to survive, it's just kind of annoying in retrospect the only thing that happened at the end of 2.55 that mattered was Minfillia, which had the least to do with the actual reason we were running.
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Jun 21, 2022 21:05
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Hellioning posted:We all knew at least some of the scions were going to survive, it's just kind of annoying in retrospect the only thing that happened at the end of 2.55 that mattered was Minfillia, which had the least to do with the actual reason we were running. I mean killing of the most actively antagonistic of the syndicate and also directly setting up the arc that leads into StB seems to have mattered quite a bit.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:02
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That’s another thing. Teji was a good villain and should have gotten the traditional villain death of becoming a primal we can kill after a long arc rather than being an idiot and taunting Rauban while inside his kill radius.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:54
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Macaluso posted:I'm glad Nanamo didn't die forever because she is a lil' cutie patootie 
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Jun 21, 2022 23:18
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Rauban killing Teji was fine, imo, because if there was anyone on the face of the planet who deserved to remove him from circulation it was him. Balancing things out, we got Ilberd. And the Primal he became part of. And the maniac who then ate that Primal. Several times.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:55
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readingatwork posted:That’s another thing. Teji was a good villain and should have gotten the traditional villain death of becoming a primal we can kill after a long arc rather than being an idiot and taunting Rauban while inside his kill radius. No once he started his goofy cackling surrounded by people much smarter than him (Ilberd and Lolorito for example) he kind of ran out of space to be in the plot outside of fodder for those smarter schemers. He was always always a stepping stone for other characters.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:35
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readingatwork posted:That’s another thing. Teji was a good villain and should have gotten the traditional villain death of becoming a primal we can kill after a long arc rather than being an idiot and taunting Rauban while inside his kill radius. See, I don't think that approach really works for the Syndicate, because a big thing that makes them work as an antagonistic force (and I absolutely still consider them that) is that they just work on a fundamentally different level to us, and take away our usual method of problem-solving. Like Raubahn learned, going straight for violence against them makes things WORSE, not better, you have to be smarter than that. The angle of 'Teledji is now deliberately going into a straight fight that we can win to kill him' completely robs him of everything that worked. It's the same reason why I still think Tsukuyomi was a misstep. Yotsuyu didn't need a boss fight, because not one single part of her character was rooted in combat.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:40
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I'm fine with Tsuyu's turning into a boss because it's explicitly a suicide-by-Eikon Slayer. She's at the end of her rope and torn between two paths and sees not way forward so actively chooses to twist the knife herself. It works because she's not rooted in combat and this is an attempt to force our (and Doma's) hand so that she doesn't cause Gotestu more grief and lets everyone move on. Teli has literally none of those inter character connections except to people using him for their own schemes even though he thinks he's the smartest top dog evil plan man.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:47
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Cleretic posted:It's the same reason why I still think Tsukuyomi was a misstep. Yotsuyu didn't need a boss fight, because not one single part of her character was rooted in combat. yeah but the trial has amazing music and it's a great spectacle
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Jun 22, 2022 00:49
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They were apologizing for having Doma Castle be a dumbass run through war machina and one baller conclusion instead of having be Yotsuyu mocking you from balcony to balcony as you made your way up to confront her.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:51
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Tsukuyomi is a situation where we win and still lose. And that's a useful feeling to cultivate going into Shadowbringers AND to invoke later in Endwalker.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:53
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Nessus posted:They were apologizing for having Doma Castle be a dumbass run through war machina and one baller conclusion instead of having be Yotsuyu mocking you from balcony to balcony as you made your way up to confront her. I'm picturing Yotsuyu giving constant voiceover to Doma Castle and basically going full Rita Repulsa out of rage, and yes, this is exactly the best way they could've ended Yotsuyu, how is this in contention?
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Jun 22, 2022 00:58
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