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Ferrinus posted:Those things are extremely good at achieving their objectives.
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Jun 21, 2022 20:56
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Siivola posted:Yeah, their objectives. Yeah, and those objectives may well include the military defeat or simply sabotage and assassination of an enemy faction. We're talking about monster hunting here. It's like really wanting to violently uphold white supremacy but thinking you're somehow too good for the US military. Sure, some people are like that, but every single last one with any verve or moxie?
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Jun 21, 2022 21:00
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Yes clearly the simple existence of a Drive stat means no other mortals have any will to life whatsoever.
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Jun 21, 2022 21:04
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Siivola posted:Yes clearly the simple existence of a Drive stat means no other mortals have any will to life whatsoever. I notice you've immediately exaggerated what I'm saying to absurd levels to make it easier to deal with. What if, rather than literally casting 99% of humanity as grey-skinned p-zombies, Hunter 5 is simply making a much more modest—but still extremely political—point about individual versus collective action?
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Jun 21, 2022 21:07
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It does feel a bit overman-ish.
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Jun 21, 2022 21:21
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Hey pals, Fuzz had the idea to divide the threads into CoD and 5th edition. I don't that's needed. CoD is, more or less in the position that V5 was when I made this thread, with 5th getting the fresh updates and new players and we kept them together then. Personally, I enjoy the cross discussion and the changes made in V5 and the last week or so of H5 stuff has been really interesting, I'd have never read them if our threads had been separate and would still be looking at V5 with the same disdain as I did at launch, not the actual interest I have in it now. Having said that, I do think we need a new thread that puts 5th edition first, since it's the line getting active development. Someone who actually plays the line should take over since I can't do it justice. What I'm asking the trad games hive mind is: do we keep the game lines in one thread or have our own siloed discussion. I'm voting to keep them together.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:17
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I vote to keep them together. This thread isn't even 10% of enough traffic for it to be a real problem, and I think it's fun to compare & contrast the editions.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:23
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Ferrinus posted:I notice you've immediately exaggerated what I'm saying to absurd levels to make it easier to deal with. What if, rather than literally casting 99% of humanity as grey-skinned p-zombies, Hunter 5 is simply making a much more modest—but still extremely political—point about individual versus collective action? Seems to me that is the same point made by every other RPG out there where half a dozen rag tag hero candidates try to make a difference, only this time it's been explicitly compared to running a startup. Game contentwise this doesn't seem all that different from a D&D adventure or a super hero game: The games are structured such that the player characters have no need (or even ability) to act collectively beyond the party. H5's language is vague and muddled, but ultimately it doesn't break new ground in dividing the mortal world into protagonists with some kind of mechanical X Factor and NPCs without. But whataboutism aside, H5 is also a horror game. Whether the game makes a point for or against collective action depends on whether the Hunters are actually successful in creating some kind of positive change for the world or not, and that depends ultimately on how the game is played. I think it's completely valid to play H5 as a tragedy where the Hunters utterly ruin their lives by donning trench coats and taking on the vampire conspiracy. But yeah sure, you could run it like Marvel's The Punisher. You're not wrong.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:29
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It's funny that Fuzz asked for the thread to be split when the current discussion was only about the oWoD with comparing it to it's own previous editions. SPlitting the nWoD from the oWoD would not have prevented it.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's funny that Fuzz asked for the thread to be split when the current discussion was only about the oWoD with comparing it to it's own previous editions. SPlitting the nWoD from the oWoD would not have prevented it.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's funny that Fuzz asked for the thread to be split when the current discussion was only about the oWoD with comparing it to it's own previous editions. SPlitting the nWoD from the oWoD would not have prevented it. Clearly the new thread will be about 5th Edition alone and all uncomfortable questions and criticisms will be siloed in here.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:43
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Siivola posted:Sorry I'm quite tired and posting poorly. But sure, okay. What if it does make that point? H5 is Marvel's The Punisher. That's the whole point. It's why Frank Castle isn't a regular cop; he has Drive. I actually do think H5 stands out from a lot of games, even other games about a small group of vigilantes doing violence against "monsters", for naming and mechanizing those characters' special reserves of moxie which other members of their same profession expressly lack. You also play a party of plucky individuals in V5, but you are in fact vampires, same as other vampires. Even the elder vampires that would wreck your game unless a plot device swept them off the table are vampires, like you, who were just lucky enough to be turned two thousand years prior. Those same politics are still there, of course, because of how vampire loners vs. vampire institutions are portrayed and the incredible emphasis placed on inherently different types of guys, but Hunter really leans into ideas about individual verve and genius that form an integral part of accepting and reproducing the liberal status quo. Kavak posted:Clearly the new thread will be about 5th Edition alone and all uncomfortable questions and criticisms will be siloed in here. I think you mean in there, since they're about fifth edition.
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Jun 21, 2022 22:54
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Ferrinus posted:I notice you've immediately exaggerated what I'm saying to absurd levels to make it easier to deal with. What if, rather than literally casting 99% of humanity as grey-skinned p-zombies, Hunter 5 is simply making a much more modest—but still extremely political—point about individual versus collective action? Except it apparently only kicks in for a group-wide bonus....? And only when poo poo really goes down. So the real bonus Drive gives you are the friends you made along the way.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:01
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citybeatnik posted:Except it apparently only kicks in for a group-wide bonus....? And only when poo poo really goes down. Characters have Drive, not groups. Don't include one of those fuddy-duddies from the Society of Leopold in your cell; they just haven't got that pizzazz. Now, there's probably a chicken and egg thing going on here. Does joining the Society crush your Drive because of the stultifying rules and procedures? Or is it just that someone with Drive would never think to join up in the first place? Either way, we know people with the will and courage to really make a difference are few and far between, and certainly don't express those qualities by, say, joining a party.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:10
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Ferrinus posted:Characters have Drive, not groups. Don't include one of those fuddy-duddies from the Society of Leopold in your cell; they just haven't got that pizzazz. They don't join a political party. They probably are in an adventuring party.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:18
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Attorney at Funk posted:They don't join a political party. They probably are in an adventuring party. That's just a small affinity group.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:20
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Soonmot posted:What I'm asking the trad games hive mind is: do we keep the game lines in one thread or have our own siloed discussion. One thread, please. Neither WoD Classic, WoD5, or CofD books come out fast enough for a steady book discussion, and there's only three or four actively playing WoD5 people that I can think of who post regularly. A seperate thread might bring them out but I'm skeptical. I also can't see a separate thread creating any discussion that wouldn't already be here. WoD5, much like CofD's beginnings, has some serious growing pains (WoD5 seems like it had the most painful of the two, but I wasn't around for very early CofD) and came out to a tough crowd. If anything, this is all just the Wheel of White Wolf Games turning once more.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:40
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One thread as well, kindly.Ferrinus posted:Characters have Drive, not groups. Don't include one of those fuddy-duddies from the Society of Leopold in your cell; they just haven't got that pizzazz. I see it as them not having Drive because the Society of Leopold is an antagonistic large-scale group and not a player-centric small group. Because they're, you know, not PCs. If you want to play a burnt out member that decided to focus on the small scale, local stuff instead I can see that being a pretty good hook. You're trying to put mechanics, which are treated as strictly an ooc thing, into an IC thing. The Big Groups don't "need" some sort of nebulous concept like "Drive" to inact their will because said will is acted out by nebulous concepts such as "launching hellfire missiles at chantries". At this point this is just making me see H5 as the equivalent of textile workers throwing their clogs in the fancy machinery.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:59
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Fuzz isn't the only one who wanted a split thread because this one gets agreessively negative about 5th ed stuff and we get these long arguments where folks who didn't read the book are going on about what's wrong with it. It's annoying as hell and discouraging
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Jun 22, 2022 00:15
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citybeatnik posted:One thread as well, kindly. Drive is an IC thing. It represents a really-existing spark of commitment and inspiration that rise n' grind gig economy hunters live by but that while 9-to-5 lunch pail conspiracy enforcers lack. That's why when when the plan goes to poo poo and fully trained and accredited Society of Leopold hunters find themselves cornered they might not have quiiiite enough dice on hand to survive, while our scrappy protagonists do. Who remembers, like, the various societies of alchemist antagonists that they made up for Promethan 2E, and some of them were scrappy go-getters and the others were stodgy conservatives?
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Jun 22, 2022 00:16
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Nawh, it's clearly a game mechanics way of measuring how much one is devoted to - dare I say driven by - the ethical need to rise up against the entrenched forces of Capital and its strangehold on legitimate authority to enact violence. I mean, if we're just making poo poo up at this point. It's no different than the rote mechanics that HtV1 PCs got to set them apart from the NPCs. joylessdivision posted:Fuzz isn't the only one who wanted a split thread because this one gets agreessively negative about 5th ed stuff and we get these long arguments where folks who didn't read the book are going on about what's wrong with it. Eh, fair enough. I suppose I'm only adding fuel to the fire.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:34
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joylessdivision posted:Fuzz isn't the only one who wanted a split thread because this one gets agreessively negative about 5th ed stuff and we get these long arguments where folks who didn't read the book are going on about what's wrong with it.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:39
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Kavak posted:Clearly the new thread will be about 5th Edition alone and all uncomfortable questions and criticisms will be siloed in here. No, it would be about the actual games and ideas and lores and bouncing ideas off each other in both threads, instead of every other day just being the same discussion about comparing the two different universes. When was the last time anyone talked about Deviant or Geist or any other CoD thing in here? It's ostensibly a CoD thread since that's the thrust of the OP. 5th Edition WoD stuff also has changed a lot since that OP was written, including changing entire ownership of the IP and who publishes and writes for it. Actually discussing the franchises themselves instead of constantly comparing the two ad nauseum would be... nice? I mean I currently have an active Geist game I'm running that's Jojo inspired with all the Geists being the Stands. Haven't bothered talking about it because the air in the room has been sucked out completely. It's actually the only game I'm currently GMing, ironically, since my MGS inspired Deviant game went on hiatus when pandemic started. (wuuuuuut yes, I apparently only have been running CofD games for the last 5+ years and I'm "the V5 guy" despite the last oWoD game I ran being in, uh... 2002) Free Cog posted:One thread, please. Neither WoD Classic, WoD5, or CofD books come out fast enough for a steady book discussion, and there's only three or four actively playing WoD5 people that I can think of who post regularly. A seperate thread might bring them out but I'm skeptical. There's a lot more than that, they just never post and hang in various goon discords where we chat about it and most feel this thread is a nightmare helldump, that's kinda why I suggested it as one of the few 5th Ed interested people who still pokes his head in here. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:If your problem is that the thread isn't +-only, I'm pretty sure rpg.net is still out there This is lovely and unwelcoming. Really unnecessary. 
Fuzz fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 00:39
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Fuzz posted:No, it would be about the actual games and ideas and lores and bouncing ideas off each other in both threads, instead of every other day just being the same discussion about comparing the two different universes. If you just want a place where people you dislike aren't, it sounds like you've already got one? Which is great! I'm happy for you. I don't know why it's relevant to somewhere you've already said you dislike. Also, I'd love to talk about Deviant! I've posted about Deviant here before, I love the stupid game! I bring it up too much! We've all talked about Geist in various capacities recently, and other games as well! e: In fact, I'll do you a solid. I last brought up Deviant 8 days ago. So it's been a week and change, that's the last time someone tried to talk about Deviant. Chernobyl Peace Prize fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 00:44
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:If you're already talking with people about your games in discord, it sounds like you're already talking about your games? I guess I don't see what value-add a thread is supposed to be for you if by your own admission you don't feel like using it, you're already communicating with people (more people than post in the thread, even!), and it's an environment more amenable to your topics. It's more trying to actually get new people into it, which hahaha christ, referring them to this thread is a lost cause and having to personally type out a bunch of poo poo *every time* is just insufferable. Pandemic got a lot of people into TTRPGs out of nowhere, and poo poo like live plays has too. They come by here and try to figure out their rear end from their elbow on the topiuc and it's like... wait, which books do I read for Vampire? Wait, which Vampire game? What is this Mage thing everyone is always on about? Wait, there's more than one Mage? And now there's a new Hunter game, which is even worse because it's like the other franchise's Hunter, but there's also the old HtR... It's a giant wall to actually getting people interested in either universe, so unless you guys like your circlejerk of exclusivity and gatekeeping to keep stuff hard to decipher for people showing up for either franchise, I mean keep it all in one big mass of same named games which are now run by two separate companies and publishing houses. Makes perfect sense to me for the same 20 people to keep huffing their own farts, myself included in that number. 
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Jun 22, 2022 00:54
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lol we can't even get people to not talk about exalted in here, I honestly don't see any thread split being able to quarantine discussion of the other game line. We do need a new 5th edition focused op, though, and I'm not the one to do it.
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Jun 22, 2022 01:00
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citybeatnik posted:Nawh, it's clearly a game mechanics way of measuring how much one is devoted to - dare I say driven by - the ethical need to rise up against the entrenched forces of Capital and its strangehold on legitimate authority to enact violence. I'll answer your last point first: it's actually very different. First off, the Code and WP-risk mechanics that HtV hunters get access to (while, say, mages do not) are psychological byproducts of being on the hunt at all, rather than special X-factors which set the special hunters away from the rest. Some D.I.Y. house invader could risk WP for 9-again on a roll or whatever it was, but so could an entire team of assassins trained by the Vatican in Catholic ritual magic. The text didn't sing your praises for having a Code or treat it like it meant you felt your feelings more deeply or whatever. These things were just byproducts of being a dedicated monster hunter. As to the rest of your post: you're just making poo poo up at this point, and it's very easy to tell. Even if you were right that some combination of the established hunter conspiracies and the monsters they're hunting legibly represent capital (you're not; capital is a specific kind of thing involved in a definite kind of social relations), the portrayal and mechanization of Drive actually makes extremely specific, and extremely suspect, political claims vis-a-vis even the fight against capitalism or oppression more generally! Not everyone fights oppression by doing small-scale stochastic terrorism. Some people do it by building or joining large organizations. But I guess those people don't have Drive, right? Fuzz posted:so unless you guys like your circlejerk of exclusivity and gatekeeping Wait, but you're the one who wants to keep certain kinds of discussion out of the World of Darkness thread.
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Jun 22, 2022 01:01
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Fuzz posted:It's more trying to actually get new people into it, which hahaha christ, referring them to this thread is a lost cause and having to personally type out a bunch of poo poo *every time* is just insufferable. Pandemic got a lot of people into TTRPGs out of nowhere, and poo poo like live plays has too. They come by here and try to figure out their rear end from their elbow on the topiuc and it's like... wait, which books do I read for Vampire? Wait, which Vampire game? What is this Mage thing everyone is always on about? Wait, there's more than one Mage? And now there's a new Hunter game, which is even worse because it's like the other franchise's Hunter, but there's also the old HtR... I honestly do not have an answer for you as to how to resolve the issues in the first paragraph, whether it's in one thread, two threads, or what. The entire thing is clinging by our fingernails to overlapping terminology and desperately searching for meaning in a world of shadow and fog. But I think the first couple posts show a lot of work put into them to try to help, at least. If you can get people to read them.
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Jun 22, 2022 01:02
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Ferrinus posted:Wait, but you're the one who wants to keep certain kinds of discussion out of the World of Darkness thread. People can freely discuss that if they want... in the WoD5 thread. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I honestly do not have an answer for you as to how to resolve the issues in the first paragraph, whether it's in one thread, two threads, or what. The entire thing is clinging by our fingernails to overlapping terminology and desperately searching for meaning in a world of shadow and fog. But I think the first couple posts show a lot of work put into them to try to help, at least. If you can get people to read them. The OP is great for CoD, but its info on WoD5 is way out of date and there's like 7 more books in that line since it was posted, plus H5 and W5 is confirmed in the works and probably coming out next summer based on the chats with Achilli in the official Discord (and the Get have fallen to the Wyrm, which rules because gently caress the Get). Soonmot posted:We do need a new 5th edition focused op, though, and I'm not the one to do it. Agreed, and I don't think I'm the person to do it either since I was so burned by Revised and 20th Ed's horrible racism that it's why I straight quit oWoD for 15+ years and wouldn't be able to keep my sentiments on WoD20 out of said OP, despite a fuckton of people still playing it. (no idea if anyone here does, they've probably all been scared away from this clusterfuck of a thread) Fuzz fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 01:05
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Fuzz posted:People can freely discuss that if they want... in the WoD5 thread. That's what we're doing. Onyx Path's WoD output has slowed to a trickle; we're in the oWoD thread already.
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Jun 22, 2022 01:28
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:e: In fact, I'll do you a solid. I last brought up Deviant 8 days ago. So it's been a week and change, that's the last time someone tried to talk about Deviant. My group was going to play Deviant after we finished our Awakening game, but then it took way too long to finally release that we probably will never get back around to it. This just makes me sad. Geist is the other one we wanted to play, but it didn’t happen because the book suffered so badly from how they did the layout and organization. We’re playing 30 year old games instead because they’re somehow better organized even if the rules are terrible. At least we can find the rules. The absolute worst part of the end of Chronicles? They just won’t admit it because they still have books overdue from kickstarters. I’d rather they just admitted it.
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Jun 22, 2022 01:37
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Jhet posted:My group was going to play Deviant after we finished our Awakening game, but then it took way too long to finally release that we probably will never get back around to it. This just makes me sad. Geist is the other one we wanted to play, but it didn’t happen because the book suffered so badly from how they did the layout and organization. We’re playing 30 year old games instead because they’re somehow better organized even if the rules are terrible. At least we can find the rules. Deviant though. The thing I'm kind of struggling with currently is that: holy poo poo the Instability rules are awful, especially starting out (with your mighty 0 default Acclimation stat, which isn't useful for much else if you don't have Directed powers). I understand that your progression by default requires biffing a bunch of instability rolls to pop out new or stronger scars in order to get new or stronger variations, but god if it doesn't read and feel like the Changeling clarity rules but with more steps, and forced mechanical incentives to either use it or houserule the poo poo out of it. Extremely fun and versatile game chassis otherwise though! Even if I feel bad for my ST when he has to do a bunch of conspiracy stuff on the side/in the background because, for example, my character gave a couple SWAT teams a 28 days later rage virus and then hosed off while a city block burned.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:20
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Fuzz posted:There's a lot more than that, they just never post and hang in various goon discords where we chat about it and most feel this thread is a nightmare helldump, that's kinda why I suggested it as one of the few 5th Ed interested people who still pokes his head in here. I know folks have already harped on it, but if you already have a community, I'm not sure how bringing them into a larger community with a new thread is going to create anything you're hoping is going to happen. In all likelyhood, it'll just turn into discussions like these, because these discussions are just what happens, as far as I can tell, on any public forum, from here to RPGnet to Reddit. If they think this thread is a nightmare helldump, why in the world would they want to post in the place where the actors who create the environment they do not like will come into the thread? We could certainly use a new thread with an updated OP now that we're two games into WoD5, I just don't see how a seperate thread for 5th Edition and one for everything else doesn't just become two smaller, slower threads of almost the exact same kind of discussion.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:29
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I'm running a solo game of VtR 2e, focusing on exploration and dungeon-crawling. I'm having fun adapting OSR modules to the system, but 2E Resources and items just feel so bare-bones...does anybody have any recommendations for favorite loot/item supplementals/systems that can be bolted on, even if they have their own rules? I like OSR stuff like tables that can generate random potions, mini-systems for haggling and buying from merchants, etc. Maybe I can look into the 1E changeling rules for goblin markets, since weird magical loot seems like it would be more in-demand there than at a random antiques store.
tatankatonk fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 02:40
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Yeah, I'm getting to the point here where games we started from a KS manuscript draft are ending before the second (last?) sidebooks we're expecting are going to come out in any form. Yep. That’s the issue. So we won’t start off a manuscript and wait for it to be in pdf form at the very least. I prefer to have the physical book too, because that way I can put in tabs for flipping around quickly. We were going to play it with an X-Files meets Fringe sort of vibe too. Is it a government or corporate conspiracy? Probably throw in some Supernatural style monster of the week stuff too, but maybe the game after next I can get it resurrected.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:42
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Fuzz posted:People can freely discuss that if they want... in the WoD5 thread. Once again I fail to see how it would prevent from complaints about V5 and H5 themselves, especially when compared to their previous editions. In particular the current discussion that has bummed you out has been remarkable nWoD free. You want people to love V5 as much as you do, but V5 has problems. You say they've adressed some of those in supplements, and that others aren't problems at all. Ok. I read the corebook and it didn't sell me much on the game. Sell me on what changed then! Explain it.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:42
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I really really liked Hunter: the Vigil's 2E's core mechanics. You felt slightly-underpowered in head-on conflicts with supernaturals (depending on the type), but weirdly at-par or even overpowered if you got the right equipment and planned for the encounter (with a little setup and the right merits, my character could roll 24 rote dice for a rifle shot at a creature). The Conspiracy-tier powers/equipment felt really impactful and iconic during play. I think the thing that may or may not appeal to people is how incumbent it is on the players to come up with new devices/powers/potions for their conspiracies and then balance it out with the GM. It's really minimal on how the Conspiracies/Compacts function, but I always took them more as inspiration than a blueprint - they're riffs for you to come up with how *your* Task Force Valkyrie/Alchemists/Lucifuge work in *your* game. Metaplot and Canon NPCs always turned me off gamelines like owod...why would I want to play with other people's toys? So I appreciate the blank space, even if it's a little more work
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Jun 22, 2022 02:52
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tatankatonk posted:I'm running a solo game of VtR 2e, focusing on exploration and dungeon-crawling. I'm having fun adapting OSR modules to the system, but 2E Resources and items just feel so bare-bones...does anybody have any recommendations for favorite loot/item supplementals/systems that can be bolted on, even if they have their own rules? I like OSR stuff like tables that can generate random potions, mini-systems for haggling and buying from merchants, etc. Maybe I can look into the 1E changeling rules for goblin markets, since weird magical loot seems like it would be more in-demand there than from a random antiques store. Check out Diablerie: Mexico for an old-school Masquerade dungeon crawl.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:54
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Splitting into two threads seems extremely unnecessary. I don't really have strong opinions on V5 and so forth, but at the same time CoD is pretty much at the end of its life. Comparing and contrasting the various lines and settings is way more interesting. The thread just can't always be about what you like all the time. It's a very broad series of books. Do I get salty when people are mean about Wraith, Promethean, or Hunter the Reckoning (Original Flavor)? No. Is pages and pages of Magechat annoying yet intriguing? Yes. It's a big ol spooky world. Just defend the games you like, and accept that some people don't. Also, the thread should ban all talk of Beast. Just let it go into oblivion, unfixed. It's not worth it.
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Jun 22, 2022 02:58
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Also, the thread should ban all talk of Beast. Just let it go into oblivion, unfixed. It's not worth it. Make a beast thread and perma everyone who post in it unironically.
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Jun 22, 2022 03:04
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