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KungFu Grip posted:i'm not lid but its 100% because most of the posters were enclosed pool area posters/people that wanted that subforum, its not any deeper than that i assure you lol if thats what it is
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Jun 22, 2022 07:03
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rare Magic card l00k posted:We need more threads in general for weird fighting-adjacent everything. Losing the STREETBEEFS thread was a huge tragedy.
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Jun 22, 2022 07:11
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Vandar posted:Losing the STREETBEEFS thread was a huge tragedy. Instead of Streetbeefs let’s make it King of the Streets.
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Jun 22, 2022 07:14
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i feel like it's much more likely that the extremely angry grudge holding guy that everyone told to gently caress off bought that av, than lid
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Jun 22, 2022 07:15
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STONE COLD 64 posted:why did you throw me on the list KungFu Grip posted:i'm not lid but its 100% because most of the posters were enclosed pool area posters/people that wanted that subforum, its not any deeper than that i assure you STONE COLD 64 posted:lol if thats what it is I have no tact, I never have an probably never will, but KFG is right. Theres no deeper meaning here, and I repeat I don't want any of you banned or anything like that, I made a tactfully terrible post trying to bring attention to a real issue, and it hurt people, and I'm sorry. As for your av I didn't buy that, I don't think I've bought anyone an av in my entire time here. I think av buying is dumb and is indirect bullying grievances poo poo rather than actually confronting the problem, which is the thing I hate.
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Jun 22, 2022 07:20
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i c, ty lid
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Jun 22, 2022 07:23
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Lid you’re like Don Quixote if he just hated windmills
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Jun 22, 2022 07:26
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Eat My Fuc posted:Lid you’re like Don Quixote if he just hated windmills 
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Jun 22, 2022 09:39
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STONE COLD 64 posted:the irony of this av lid bought me lol Wtf lololool
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Jun 22, 2022 10:39
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Mekchu posted:Wtf lololool i believe lid,
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Jun 22, 2022 11:00
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I don't care if he bought it or not. It's a hilariously lame av to buy
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Jun 22, 2022 11:22
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Mekchu posted:I don't care if he bought it or not. It's a hilariously lame av to buy that guy got real upset that he couldnt call me a racist
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Jun 22, 2022 11:35
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Lid posted:This is a very good post and thank you for making it. Zero reflection, I see
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Jun 22, 2022 12:05
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Making this all an indictment of Lid instead of about the common sentiment expressed by other posters like the one Lid quoted there continues to feel like the problem to me. I dunno. It doesn’t feel like there’s much reflection happening in general.
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Jun 22, 2022 13:18
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STAC Goat posted:Making this all an indictment of Lid instead of about the common sentiment expressed by other posters like the one Lid quoted there continues to feel like the problem to me. Yeah, that probably would have gone better if Lid had any tangible actionable things we could do to improve instead of posting a list, back tracking, and then taking a victory lap about it. The voiceless posters picked a bad champion. I do think people would still be open to actionable changes we could make if it wants to be suggested by any other posters.
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Jun 22, 2022 13:31
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STAC Goat posted:Making this all an indictment of Lid instead of about the common sentiment expressed by other posters like the one Lid quoted there continues to feel like the problem to me. It's only an indictment of Lid because he made a list of posters he claimed were causing all the problems, a bunch of people said "wtf 8/10 of those people are not a problem" and Lid had no tangible evidence to back any of it up and ignored the likes of yea ok & stonecold64 who were repeatedly asking why they were on the "enemies list" while Lid kept going on about how he is trying to make this a better place and he's doing what is needed 
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Jun 22, 2022 13:36
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I’m not open to any changes that result in less funny posts. I mean this sincerely.
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Jun 22, 2022 13:38
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Mekchu posted:It's only an indictment of Lid because he made a list of posters he claimed were causing all the problems, a bunch of people said "wtf 8/10 of those people are not a problem" and Lid had no tangible evidence to back any of it up and ignored the likes of yea ok & stonecold64 who were repeatedly asking why they were on the "enemies list" while Lid kept going on about how he is trying to make this a better place and he's doing what is needed And then admitted he was just prosecuting a personal beef against those posters because: KungFu Grip posted:i'm not lid but its 100% because most of the posters were enclosed pool area posters/people that wanted that subforum, its not any deeper than that i assure you
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Jun 22, 2022 13:43
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quote:Yeah, that probably would have gone better if Lid had any tangible actionable things we could do to improve instead of posting a list, back tracking, and then taking a victory lap about it. The voiceless posters picked a bad champion. "picking a bad champion" is frankly bullshit, you're making it seem like the only reason people have been agreeing with him all along is that they've been bamboozled by Lid's sheer charisma, and it couldn't possibly be that they simply agree.
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Jun 22, 2022 13:53
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My Lovely Horse posted:This sort of statement feels very dismissive to me, like when you don't actually want anything to change, you pick the bad parts out of good posts and use them to justify why the posts are actually bad. "Well I wish we could change all the bad things that were called out but there was a list. Nothing we can do." Feels like people are always gonna find some detail that doesn't 100% fit how they want stuff to be brought up. I just expect people to articulate change in a way that's actionable. Lid mostly self sucked. If you agree then explain what you would like to see change in a way people can take action on. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 13:58
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My Lovely Horse posted:This sort of statement feels very dismissive to me, like when you don't actually want anything to change, you pick the bad parts out of good posts and use them to justify why the posts are actually bad. "Well I wish we could change all the bad things that were called out but there was a list. Nothing we can do." Feels like people are always gonna find some detail that doesn't 100% fit how they want stuff to be brought up. Please quote specific suggestions for change that have been brought forth in this thread and you feel are being ignored. Not trying to be a dick or cherry pick or bandwagon or whatever else, this thread has moved really fast and maybe those posts are out there and I have missed them! But based on what I have read and managed to retain, I do not think they are
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Jun 22, 2022 14:04
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I still honestly don't know what is being asked, but regardless, I find Lid and a lot of the people that agreed with Lid to be extremely confrontational at times and some of the incidents cited were a direct result of them being confrontational. Some of these examples I've read, I honestly cannot imagine that the OP didn't expect some negative reaction to their post. It seems like some posters don't want anyone to react or discuss their takes if they disagree with them. I don't know what the answer to that problem is. I have yet to really see an example of a new poster coming into a thread and asking some questions (without some bold confidence about why a bunch of stuff sucks or doesn't make sense after watching 2 episodes) and getting told to gently caress off. If you come with a "help me understand this" attitude, people are generally going to go out of their way to explain and post links and videos to cool stuff. Bad takes or factually incorrect information are sometimes going to elicit pushback. That's the nature of a discussion forum.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:07
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I think its fundamentally easier and human instinct to focus on the mistakes and bad actions of an arguably flawed messenger than to focus on the X number of posters who have made a common argument. And I get it. It was unfair for yea ok or stone cold 64 or whoever to be singled out. And they have a right to defend themselves. And even if someone does think they make bad posts or engage in bad behavior its still clear the common sentiment isn't that there's one or two bad eggs, just a whole vibe/atmosphere/culture. Its also fundamentally easier and human instinct for people to just accept the way it is and go with the flow and if they don't like it shut up and take it. So yeah, I kind of resent the dismissal of Lid as some kind of unchosen voice of the voiceless. I and others agreed with his general points. The focus never really changed. That post in particular that we're reacting to was Lid quoting another regular poster who I thought offered a very diplomatic case that its not really one "side" or another but just a general intensity and the solution might just be for everyone to reflect on their own habits and question if they're being an rear end in a top hat. I think that's it. People just need to act more charitably. I don't know that there's any actionable changes for that short of mods being harsher on quick hostility or passive aggressive attacks or blatant attempts to derail a conversation. But I also think its been made clear that there's a lot of posters who would be upset if any of that happened so I don't have a grand solution. But you can't find a solution if we don't agree there's a problem. And clearly we don't.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:11
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I've had problems with this place in the past, and I still sometimes groan at the dismissiveness of some posters here, but I don't think anything needs to change. If you think one or more people are behaving inappropriately then you can speak up and call them out in the moment, rather than calling out every poster you've held a grudge with for the past 6 months because someone made a general statement about getting dunked on. That doesn't do anyone any good.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:20
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STAC Goat posted:It was unfair for yea ok or stone cold 64 or whoever to be singled out. it was literally hypocritical bullshit to accuse them, refuse to back up any of the claims, and still boast on how youre trying to make the subforum welcoming masked in a self appointed "savior of the forums" theming.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:21
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STAC Goat posted:I think its fundamentally easier and human instinct to focus on the mistakes and bad actions of an arguably flawed messenger than to focus on the X number of posters who have made a common argument. And I get it. It was unfair for yea ok or stone cold 64 or whoever to be singled out. And they have a right to defend themselves. And even if someone does think they make bad posts or engage in bad behavior its still clear the common sentiment isn't that there's one or two bad eggs, just a whole vibe/atmosphere/culture. I'm with this, if the answer is be more charitable and chill than yeah we should be, that's good general advice for a discussion forum. I think we can accomplish that. I think that message also would have gone down a lot better if Lid didn't decide to be an example of not being chill or charitable. If there really are a bunch of posters who are afraid to post and are speaking through Lid they should just come chat about it and be chill and charitable because the point keeps being overshadowed by incongruent behavior.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:23
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To be 100% clear I'm not asking what actions we should take to be dismissive, I'm asking because that's how my brain works and I need concrete things. Being chill and nice is a goal but you need to take actions to reach that goal. When someone's actions don't match what they say their goal is and they also can't articulate how to reach that goal I do then become dismissive because there is nothing I can do there and the expectations then are just magical. There will always be conflict and coming up with ways to handle it better is more effective than vaguely wanting everyone to get along. Managing conflict effectively is how you get to getting along.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:33
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Gumball Gumption posted:I'm with this, if the answer is be more charitable and chill than yeah we should be, that's good general advice for a discussion forum. I think we can accomplish that. I think that message also would have gone down a lot better if Lid didn't decide to be an example of not being chill or charitable. If there really are a bunch of posters who are afraid to post and are speaking through Lid they should just come chat about it and be chill and charitable because the point keeps being overshadowed by incongruent behavior. I mean, aren't people? Isn't that what Lamuella did in that post? I feel like that's what I've tried to do, although certainly many here would say I'm anything but "chill". I feel like there's been dozens of posters in here or the AEW thread that have agreed with Lid's main point and expressed similar ideas. But no, I don't think there's actionable changes beyond harsher moderation. But hopefully the conversation is enough that people are more conscious of how they treat others or how others are treating people here. I've already seen one or two occasions where someone made a lovely dismissive post and was called out for it. So maybe that's all it takes? People being more aware of how this all happens and plays. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 14:39
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STAC Goat posted:But you can't find a solution if we don't agree there's a problem. And clearly we don't. This. What would I like to change? poo poo, I would have liked people to engage with STAC’s posts instead of continually looping back to Lid. I would like it if I could say “hey, I think this interaction I had with X sucked” without people getting snarky about it. I would like it if people who have been piled on in WWE and NJPW threads said “wait, you’re saying some AEW posters feel the same way I do about getting taunted?” instead of dismissing the idea that there are parallels. I would like it if people who disagree with the above made constructive alternative suggestions rather than saying “that’s dumb, discussion over, moving on.” But it is what it is.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:45
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Thanlis posted:“that’s dumb, discussion over, moving on.” no one is doing this though?
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Jun 22, 2022 14:49
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Thanlis posted:This. What would I like to change? poo poo, I would have liked people to engage with STAC’s posts instead of continually looping back to Lid. I would like it if I could say “hey, I think this interaction I had with X sucked” without people getting snarky about it. I would like it if people who have been piled on in WWE and NJPW threads said “wait, you’re saying some AEW posters feel the same way I do about getting taunted?” instead of dismissing the idea that there are parallels. That's good stuff and what I'm asking for. I'm definitely also of the mind that we should step back in general more and look at why an interaction is sucking instead of jumping to conclusions. Like I keep saying, written word is messy and often the meaning you're assuming isn't what they were trying to articulate.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:56
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Mekchu posted:no one is doing this though? I am not angry and I don’t think you’re a bad person but I need to point out that I just typed a sincere paragraph of things I’d like and rather than engage with it or ignore it, you picked one thing, said it wasn’t happening, and skipped over the rest without making a constructive alternative suggestion. Edit: also thanks, GG, I’m glad it was helpful. Boiling it down to “take a moment to ask if you’re adding anything new or just adding to the chorus” is about the best thing, I think.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:58
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i saw a, what i took as a strawman, point you were making and am refuting it. i dont need to give you an alternative suggestion when you're making up poo poo people said.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:02
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Thanlis posted:I am not angry and I don’t think you’re a bad person but I need to point out that I just typed a sincere paragraph of things I’d like and rather than engage with it or ignore it, you picked one thing, said it wasn’t happening, and skipped over the rest without making a constructive alternative suggestion. no one is obligated to refute your essay point-by-point
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Jun 22, 2022 15:05
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WatermelonGun posted:no one is obligated to refute your essay point-by-point “Or ignore it.” I literally said I didn’t care if people ignored it. Who exactly is making up poo poo?
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Jun 22, 2022 15:07
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Can anyone articulate the problem in a succinct way? I've seen lots of posts describing the problem in long essays, but nowhere in 1-2 bullet points of 1-2 sentences. That's the first step to finding a solution.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:11
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Can we sticky the general chat thread. Feels like one to be stickied.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:15
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On another note: there are a couple of posters who I wrote off as assholes. This didn’t help my mood any. I made a point of noticing when they weren’t assholes and I tried not to read their posts with preconceptions. Did loving wonders. Is X still a jerk sometimes? Sure, but that doesn’t define them. Building an enemy list is not helpful. So that’s another constructive thing I recommend, take it or leave it.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:16
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Well let's go for one specific thing I'd like to see people do: when you do something that upsets people, stop or avoid doing it, instead of doubling down on it in the conviction that you're making the forum a funnier place. Most importantly, do this without putting the responsibility on them. If you've intimidated someone, you've already made it harder for them to speak up. It doesn't work to say "all they need to do is ask me not to intimidate them anymore and I'll stop". Obviously this is immensely hard to do and isn't going to work even close to 100% of the time but I guarantee you that people will notice if you try and will be willing to give you a lot more leeway for the times you don't nail it.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:27
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Mekchu posted:no one is doing this though? WatermelonGun posted:no one is obligated to refute your essay point-by-point These types of responses are what drove me away from posting in the AEW discussion threads. People - whether intentional or not - disregarding the point of the whole post to gotcha a single line. I replied earlier ITT agreeing with a "feels like walking on eggshells" sentiment and this is exactly it.
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Jun 22, 2022 15:30
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