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Yeah that's my question are they able to look at your ballot and beat you up or imply that they might or whatever if you voted wrong, or are they just saying "here's some cash vote for our party" and hoping some amount of people vote that way instead of just taking the money and voting for the other guy anyway because those are pretty different things.
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Jun 22, 2022 17:34
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the reason to ask for clarification is that part of the big push for Guiado to come save Venezuela via *mumble* featured people seriously opining about the corruption demonstrated by first Chavez, then Maduro, promising people that government programs would help them if they kept him in power. there is a genuine belief in the wider anglosphere that doing this is somehow immoral and/or cheating, and it fascinates me to see the logic in action. what do such people think the role of government is to do! yes, there's the truly despicable ones who think the role of Latin American governments is to follow the Bush doctrine re-Iraq -"shoot 'em over there so we don't have to shoot 'em over here"- but clear-eyed open malevolence like that is in short supply outside the CIA and State Department. what does the more centrist spectator believe is averted, if the government is prevented from corruptly offering some kind of 'public good' to its supporters?
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Jun 22, 2022 17:57
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Yeah so for like the fourth time, I’m not talking about goods and services applying to everyone, I’m talking about tents being set up outside polling stations, ran by party officers, that are clearly PSUV labeled, that sync up with the party observers inside the polling place, to confirm you voted for the right people. Then you get a bonus deposited in your bank account. How they actually know you voted is pretty simple, you gotta sign a sheet after you’ve cast your ballot, and they can very easily tell from that spot who you voted for based on where you put your hand. The PSUV always occupies the top left part of the ballot card. On the voting machines, each one of these boxes is a button you have to press.  The card they use to ID you for this, the Carnet de la Patria, happens to be tied to your permanent national ID and it is also used for access social programs, including CLAP. It makes it very easy for the government to for example, deny food assistance to whoever votes against them, which for some people means losing their only source of food.
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Jun 22, 2022 19:02
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah that's my question are they able to look at your ballot and beat you up or imply that they might or whatever if you voted wrong, or are they just saying "here's some cash vote for our party" and hoping some amount of people vote that way instead of just taking the money and voting for the other guy anyway because those are pretty different things. Josef bugman posted:Well I'd like to ask how you votes with an actually secret ballot? Otherwise isn't that just campaign pledges? I am not being facetious here but genuinely wondering. You're adding an incentive for bad faith actors to rig the system even more in the favor of the rich, and giving the rich another way to influence a system that they already have a stranglehold on. Like, yes, in a vacuum, in which this does not disrupt elections in any significant way, then I can see the argument for it. It would not be that different from campaign promises and is, from the perspective of the voter, more reliable. But it wouldn't happen in a vacuum, because paying people to vote for you and making campaign promises are not the same. Campaign promises are intangible vague bullshit that few people expect to actually come true, to the point politicians have no accountability for failing to keep them and often see zero repercussions for a lifetime of doing exactly that. Real tangible money in your pocket right now is a much bigger deal. It is a big deal logistically (and obviously economically) to be handing it out at the scale needed to win an election. It is a big deal psychologically for the people receiving it, and more importantly for the people giving it out too. This kind of policy would not happen without the party doing their absolute damndest best to make sure people are voting as they're supposed to. Meaning that, even if this idea works as intended at first, the ruling party now has an incentive to want to tamper with the electoral process to make individual votes no longer secret, and it's a matter of time until someone attempts it. You can't design systems assuming only good faith actors will forever have the power, you have to design your systems as bad faith actor-proof as possible. Like even if you believe Maduro isn't abusing the system, that he's improving the material conditions of the Venezuelans who have their hearts in the right place or whatever, he's going to be followed up by someone else eventually. How do you know it won't be a Bolsonaro who gets to use the system? Look, I get it, liberals love to parrot out axioms of how our systems are supposed to work and cry they shouldn't be questioned because that leads to communism, but I don't think this is the line you want to follow. Like, if you think the interference from the US and the lobbying by the rich are already bad, giving them ANOTHER angle (a legal one no less, unlike attempted coups) that the left can't take advantage of isn't going to help.
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Jun 22, 2022 19:41
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I mean I don't really see how that's a problem. If the rich are giving me a bit of their wealth to vote for them the obvious play is for the other guys to say hey we'll take even more from the rich and give you that so vote for us instead, if the other guys aren't going to do that then how are they better, sounds like they're worse. If the problem is that even if they said that no one would believe them, then yeah voting for money in my pocket now is clearly the rational choice if the other guys are probably lying, right. Although I wouldn't even need to actually vote for the guy giving me the money right, if they aren't checking ballots then I can take the money and vote for whoever. Idk sounds weird to call giving people a reason to vote for you antidemocratic especially right after assuring me that jailing the opposition on false charges in Brazil was still democratic because hey Bolso got more votes at the end of the day right. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 20:04
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I'm probably misremembering a lot of context, but didn't Lava Jato backfire massively on the centrist Temer, Cunha &c. crowd who it was supposed to help to power? Like, I don't think they wanted someone as obviously stupid and horrible as Bolsonaro to take over. Moro joined forces with him ofc but the general impression I got from abroad was that Bolsonaro is just a clown who struck lucky after all the corruption talk and after PT fielded a drab, unpopular candidate
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Jun 22, 2022 20:25
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I think that's correct yes, they were hoping that by jailing Lula they'd get a right wing candidate elected (themselves) and they did just not the one they were hoping for. I'd still argue that jailing the opposition makes for an antidemocratic election even if it didn't grant the people doing it complete control over the outcome. I guess you could argue that none of this is Bolsonaro's fault personally and maybe that is even true (I have no idea whether he or his allies were involved at all), but speaking of the system as a whole it's pretty clearly not a democratic election if the guy who might have won was put in jail to prevent people from voting for him regardless of the eventual winner's culpability or lack thereof.
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Jun 22, 2022 20:39
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VitalSigns posted:I'd still argue that jailing the opposition makes for an antidemocratic election even if it didn't grant the people doing it complete control over the outcome. I guess you could argue that none of this is Bolsonaro's fault personally and maybe that is even true (I have no idea whether he or his allies were involved at all), but speaking of the system as a whole it's pretty clearly not a democratic election if the guy who might have won was put in jail to prevent people from voting for him regardless of the eventual winner's culpability or lack thereof. This is a loving hilarious post considering this is exactly what happened in Venezuela with the largest party in the parliament being banned from running and all major contenders being either jailed or forbidden to run. But I guess it can’t be a consistent position because that would make Maduro as anti democratic if not worse.
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Jun 22, 2022 21:19
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fnox posted:This is a loving hilarious post considering this is exactly what happened in Venezuela with the largest party in the parliament being banned from running and all major contenders being either jailed or forbidden to run. But I guess it can’t be a consistent position because that would make Maduro as anti democratic if not worse.
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Jun 22, 2022 21:26
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fnox posted:This is a loving hilarious post considering this is exactly what happened in Venezuela with the largest party in the parliament being banned from running and all major contenders being either jailed or forbidden to run. But I guess it can’t be a consistent position because that would make Maduro as anti democratic if not worse. Okay. So why is one acceptable to invite to the big South America conference and one isn't. If its just realpolitik then say so instead of claiming moral reasoning. So your argument is that even if it remains a secret ballot it would be bad because it could eventually lead to bad results. It is appreciated for the reply but I will disagree.
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Jun 22, 2022 21:28
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VitalSigns posted:I mean I don't really see how that's a problem. Well, it's only not a problem if you don't believe democracy is real in the first place.
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Jun 22, 2022 21:54
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fnox posted:How they actually know you voted is pretty simple, you gotta sign a sheet after you’ve cast your ballot, and they can very easily tell from that spot who you voted for based on where you put your hand. The PSUV always occupies the top left part of the ballot card. On the voting machines, each one of these boxes is a button you have to press. are votes just done out in the open like that, not even a partition or divider at least up to your neck covering your vote? as far as buying votes seems bad, but not much different from my country when the ruling conservative party promises tax cuts for the rich, landlords and business owners.
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Jun 22, 2022 22:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:Well, it's only not a problem if you don't believe democracy is real in the first place. I don't really see how that follows. People voting for a guy who is offering them material benefits in exchange sounds exactly like democracy to me. It's one of the reasons aristocrats gave to justify their fear and hatred of it, that someone would spend liberally from a fat purse and buy votes and power away from those who judged themselves best suited to rule in their own eyes anyway.
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Jun 22, 2022 22:55
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Josef bugman posted:Okay. So why is one acceptable to invite to the big South America conference and one isn't. If its just realpolitik then say so instead of claiming moral reasoning. Because while Lava Jato certainly dealt a blow to the institutional credibility of Brazil, these aren't comparable situations. For one, this wasn't the first time Maduro had "broken the constitutional order" (We're talking about in 2018) according to the Carta Democratica, he had already done so in 2016 by blocking the recall referendum against him, he had already attempted to dismiss parliament in 2017 through the creation of the Constituent Assembly, the elections were called illegally ahead of time, rushed through, with few accredited observers, where even the makers of the voting machines didn't support the election. The first, second and third runner ups for the opposition were all banned from running. State funds were used extensively for campaigning to a degree not seen before in the country, with just rampant, obvious violations of campaigning laws. For Brazil, while it was later discovered that Moro was certainly trying to get Lula in jail, I think it's a rather big jump to say that this was all a coordinated operation to ensure Bolsonaro's victory in the upcoming elections. For one, Bolsonaro wasn't in the government. Matter of fact, the government's party (after Dilma's resignation) was absolutely loving destroyed by Lava Jato. Temer became the most unpopular president in Latin American history. You can maybe argue there was a serious intent to prevent the strongest leftist candidate from running, but I don't think you can argue that this was an illegal election. You can maybe tell the situation is not comparable by how Lula's conviction was eventually vacated. Leopoldo Lopez is in exile in Spain, he's still a wanted a man, wanted for arson and terrorism charges. Marenghi posted:are votes just done out in the open like that, not even a partition or divider at least up to your neck covering your vote? There's a cardboard divider and there's someone always watching you. It's really not terribly difficult by how things are set up to be able to see what people are voting for, maybe not with 100% accuracy, but certainly a good enough estimate. Not like it matters when you don't really have a choice other than Maduro anyway. Marenghi posted:as far as buying votes seems bad, but not much different from my country when the ruling conservative party promises tax cuts for the rich, landlords and business owners. Ugh, really? I'm not sure why anyone would think it is OK to compare the situation you have living in the country with the 6th largest GDP with just about anything going on in Venezuela. It's always the people in whitest loving countries that do this too. No, it's not the loving same. 2018 was the peak of the economic crisis. People were starving. The threat of being denied the CLAP box by not going to the punto rojo after voting could mean death for some people. Those who didn't comply out of fear did so out of need. fnox fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jun 22, 2022 |
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Jun 22, 2022 22:59
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fnox posted:Ugh, really? I'm not sure why anyone would think it is OK to compare the situation you have living in the country with the 6th largest GDP with just about anything going on in Venezuela. It's always the people in whitest loving countries that do this too. GDP of Ireland may be high per person, but it's mostly on paper. As a country, it is a neo-colony of the United States. The only people who benefit from the GDP are the comprador politicians, the landlord class, and the associated service industries to US corporations. I'm not going to say it's as bad as Venuezula, but the streets aren't paved with gold here. Homelessness is sky-rocketing, emigration for better conditions has been near constant, over a decade of neo-liberalism has left a country nobody wants to live in. Everyone I know has emigrated or is planning to, and I have known many people who are or have been homeless.
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Jun 22, 2022 23:51
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fnox posted:
It depends on how you would define an illega election, in the end. Having alegal case shopped around between states to find the most aggressive, biased judge, witnesses and party figures pre-emptively arrested and held until they sang to the tune the questioners wanted to hear, and judicial instances moving at warp speed in a system usually defined by processes so slow that they self-delete, all to keep the most popular politician in the country from -maybe- restoring his destroyed party was, um, certainly a thing. And just because Bozo was not in power then does not mean the movement behind him was not in on the con. The institutional elite that was getting jumpy at not having their hand directly on the wheel for 10+ years certainly meant the beneficiery of their dirty tricks to be eternal Great white hope Aecio Neves, but he imploded by being caught on camera in a bribery scandal, threatening to kill a cousin if he squealed. Bolsonaro was surfing the wave of anti-left rage that they had stoked for years with Lava Jato, and they were plenty happy with him him the moment he picked Chicago Boy Paulo Guedes to handle the economy. In point of fact, even now with the economy crapping out and prices in the ionosphere, you will not find a singe bit of media on Guedes, when before finance ministers would be hounded on front pages if the GDP dropped 0.002%. The current, horrible regime is dismantling the state and selling public companies at a pittance, and that is more than enough to make them forgive Bozo's potty mouth and general incompetence and blood-thirst. It worries me that this round of the 'pink tide' is happening without legislative legitimacy (the 'center' in every country is completely locked in and bought), and over severely-depleted governmental apparatus. There are less tools to use and buttons to push to even try to react to the onslaught of the last decade. It's not even limited to Latin America.
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Jun 23, 2022 00:24
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in the case of Chile, rather than walls, helicopters were used to remove elements of the population deemed undesirable by the US' pet strongman, for which they were rewarded with slightly better access to America than some other countries. I'm not exactly sure what your reply is talking about, here, being purposely vague. Chile is one of South America's richest countries and given visa free access to the US. What relevance is your predictable tautology that they are given visa free access because they are a US puppet and doing US pet things? Marenghi posted:GDP of Ireland may be high per person, but it's mostly on paper. As a country, it is a neo-colony of the United States. The only people who benefit from the GDP are the comprador politicians, the landlord class, and the associated service industries to US corporations. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...-2008-1.3610709  From my experience in Ireland, there is a significant amount of EU migration into Ireland, particularly from Eastern Europe. VitalSigns posted:People voting for a guy who is offering them material benefits in exchange sounds exactly like democracy to me. GimmickMan posted:I have to say trying to argue that buying votes is good, actually, is a really weird turn for people to take on their fnox contrarianism crusade. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 00:46
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i fly airplanes posted:I'm not exactly sure what your reply is talking about, here, being purposely vague. Chile is one of South America's richest countries and given visa free access to the US. i am referring to the fact that that bit of good treatment at US hands was purchased via a US-installed military dictator who spent several years violently purging Chile of all suspected of being insufficiently right wing. the signature terror move of his administration was murdering suspected left sympathizers- trade unionists, academics, homosexuals, you know, the usual roster of people deemed undesirable by the right- by throwing them out of helicopters. you may have heard some right wing shitheads referring to something about 'bring back helicopter rides?' they are referring to Chile, and an era they look back on as a golden age of American domination of those they consider less than human. as such, particularly among members of the targeted groups, the price tag on that 'free access' is considered unacceptably high.
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Jun 23, 2022 01:18
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Instead of looking at the visa policy of the United States -- a nation which is by all accounts pathologically paranoid about illegal immigration -- why not check the visa policy of Canada and the European Union, which certainly also constitute "The West" in the sense it's being used here? https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingConsiderateGoblinUnSane-8trKs1u5lq-W2IKx Canada is not so good -- we're dickheads to a bunch of Latin American countries (but at least not Mexico!) -- but even so, I think the point stands that the US's policy is an outlier in the countries generally accepted to be part of "the West."
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Jun 23, 2022 01:56
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https://twitter.com/wyattreed13/sta...ingawful.com%2F
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Jun 23, 2022 03:05
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VitalSigns posted:I don't really see how that follows. Let's imagine it's 2024, and Bernie beat the odds and is running as the Democrat nominee. Jeff Bezos runs as the Republican nominee, and he guarantees he'll personally give everyone $10,000 in exchange for completely dismantling Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and social security. Who will you vote for? The next election he gives 5000, then 2000, then nothing. E: in this case we're not talking about someone who'll give you money vs one who won't, we're talking about people being deceived by the actual benefits they receive from one candidate vs the other considering the savings of something like M4A. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 03:48
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fnox posted:This is a loving hilarious post considering this is exactly what happened in Venezuela with the largest party in the parliament being banned from running and all major contenders being either jailed or forbidden to run. But I guess it can’t be a consistent position because that would make Maduro as anti democratic if not worse. Why does anyone care if the PSUV is anti-democratic? The opposition are liberals plotting coups with the US. They should be crushed.
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Jun 23, 2022 04:18
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America Inc. posted:Let's imagine it's 2024, and Bernie beat the odds and is running as the Democrat nominee. Jeff Bezos runs as the Republican nominee, and he guarantees he'll personally give everyone $10,000 in exchange for completely dismantling Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and social security. While I obviously wouldn't be pleased at the outcome if that worked for Bezos, I don't see how it would be unfair or undemocratic, I mean people get deceived into voting for politicians who promise say tax cuts while trying to destroy social programs that are worth more to a bunch of their voters. If that hypothetical election happened and Bernie didn't match his giveaways that would be pretty dumb. And anyway how is that different from now, we already have a president who is trying to cut all that stuff and I didn't even get the $10,000
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Jun 23, 2022 04:18
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The main difference is that it's personal bribes to specifically only the the people voting for him and attacking detractors. There's no working systems involved, it's not a policy, it's just randomly leaning on voters to sabotage the system. I don't think it's hard to get unless you're deliberately trying to ignore what democracy is.WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Why does anyone care if the PSUV is anti-democratic? The opposition are liberals plotting coups with the US. They should be crushed. Because living in an autocratic dictatorship sucks, even moreso when it's being run into the ground and there's nothing anyone can do. PT6A posted:Instead of looking at the visa policy of the United States -- a nation which is by all accounts pathologically paranoid about illegal immigration -- why not check the visa policy of Canada and the European Union, which certainly also constitute "The West" in the sense it's being used here? From everything I've heard of immigration policies in other parts of the world, the US seems to end up being one of the most open to immigrants even with the random paranoia and hostility. Europe ends up being even worse most of the time aside for special circumstances.
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Jun 23, 2022 04:32
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 What kind of heavy poo poo they smokin
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Jun 23, 2022 06:28
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VitalSigns posted:While I obviously wouldn't be pleased at the outcome if that worked for Bezos, I don't see how it would be unfair or undemocratic, I mean people get deceived into voting for politicians who promise say tax cuts while trying to destroy social programs that are worth more to a bunch of their voters. If that hypothetical election happened and Bernie didn't match his giveaways that would be pretty dumb. And who still owes you a $2000 check.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:03
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fnox posted:We're not talking about the same thing. I have no idea why there's some sort of confusion about this. These aren't checks in the mail that are sent to everybody, these are checkpoints, right outside the polling station, where you can go and prove that you voted for Trump by scanning your Patriot Card and signing, in exchange for 200 bucks. In the case of Venezuela it's more like, $4, which quickly turned into $2 by the end of the day due to inflation. Still, bad. Thank you. I was wondering about that. The phrasing didn't make it clear whether it was giving rewards specifically to people who proved they voted for him, or just universal stimuli.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:33
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Koos Group posted:Thank you. I was wondering about that. The phrasing didn't make it clear whether it was giving rewards specifically to people who proved they voted for him, or just universal stimuli. To clarify, these rewards were paid out for voting, but what's also become commonplace is the threat of removing access to social services, which are supposed to be for everyone but are ultimately tied to the same parallel ID card, the Carnet de la Patria, which were used to hand out these bonuses. You must use a Carnet de la Patria to get a CLAP box, which is the only type of food aid the government distributes. The stands right outside the polling stations where they scan your card are called a "punto rojo", and they've became a very common sight since 2017. It's completely illegal, according to Venezuelan electoral law, and according to most international observers. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Why does anyone care if the PSUV is anti-democratic? The opposition are liberals plotting coups with the US. They should be crushed.  Because this is the exact poo poo you don't want the conservatives to do? It's bad when anyone does it. Don't Google what Chavez was up to in 1992. Marenghi posted:GDP of Ireland may be high per person, but it's mostly on paper. As a country, it is a neo-colony of the United States. The only people who benefit from the GDP are the comprador politicians, the landlord class, and the associated service industries to US corporations. Jesus Christ no don't double down. It's a bad comparison, you have no loving idea how bad things are in Venezuela. You can't fathom it, you really cannot, and you're absolutely not getting a picture of what the country is like. The fact that you're comparing emigration from Ireland with the largest refugee crisis in the continent right now should be pretty loving telling. A quarter of Venezuela's population is now abroad as a direct result of the permanent crisis that Maduro's presidency has been. 94.5% of the population lives under the international poverty line. Under Chavez, the average was 33% percent. Precisely what I'm telling you is that Venezuela is the neoliberal nightmare you fear. Everything is in dollars, everything is imported and far too expensive for the common folk, there's not enough jobs to go around. It has become the most unequal country in the entire continent. Somehow, a whole chunk of you have bought in to the idea that Maduro is this socialist hero as he's done nothing but implement liberal economic policies for the last 2 years. fnox fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 09:04
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fnox posted:
I'm sure Pinochet would only have been a mild mannered milque-toast conservative if Allende hadn't been a ruthless tyrant himself. Oh wait, this isn't actually a game where everyone plays by fair rules. Seizing and maintaining political power through force to protect the working class from imperialist subversion is good. Maduro and the PSUV are extremely loving lenient, Guaido can still loving go about freely with the only danger to himself being opposition by the masses.
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Jun 23, 2022 09:24
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I'm sure Pinochet would only have been a mild mannered milque-toast conservative if Allende hadn't been a ruthless tyrant himself. Oh wait, this isn't actually a game where everyone plays by fair rules. Seizing and maintaining political power through force to protect the working class from imperialist subversion is good. Maduro and the PSUV are extremely loving lenient, Guaido can still loving go about freely with the only danger to himself being opposition by the masses. Hilarious. I really hope the boots don't stomp your face as you bend down to kiss them. Don't wanna get mistaken for a perfidious gusano after all. To be clear, I know you idiots repeat this line a bunch about how Guaido is free to go where he pleases as like, evidence of Maduro being this paragon of democracy. This is somehow ignoring how Maduro put Freddy Guevara, Leopoldo Lopez, Antonio Ledezma, Juan Requesens, Daniel Ceballos, Alfredo Ramos, Edgar Zambrano (Guaido's right hand man) and many more in jail. Oh, or more importantly, how they did try to arrest Guaido last year. This is all the "rotating door effect", as people drop out of relevancy, you arrest them, keep them out of sight, only to release them a couple years later, tell them to go into exile, and then you put a few more in jail. It lets you suppress the entire opposition, while not putting literally everyone behind bars all at once. The issue is more that you guys know so little about Venezuela you only know of two names, Maduro and Guaido. fnox fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 09:40
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Negostrike posted:
What's supposed to be wrong here? Color choice? WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I'm sure Pinochet would only have been a mild mannered milque-toast conservative if Allende hadn't been a ruthless tyrant himself. Oh wait, this isn't actually a game where everyone plays by fair rules. Seizing and maintaining political power through force to protect the working class from imperialist subversion is good. Maduro and the PSUV are extremely loving lenient, Guaido can still loving go about freely with the only danger to himself being opposition by the masses. If Allende ruled by force, wouldn't that leave the military in a more powerful position to to stage a coup from? If you create the tools for tyranny, it gets easier for them to be misused. If not by the guy up top, then by any of the people that they end up delegating their unaccountable power to.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:29
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i fly airplanes posted:
2018 was actually a high point of immigration. It's been declining since. Even with the higher wages compared to Eastern Europe a lot aren't bothered any more due to the high cost of rent and living here.  SlothfulCobra posted:If Allende ruled by force, wouldn't that leave the military in a more powerful position to to stage a coup from? If you create the tools for tyranny, it gets easier for them to be misused. If not by the guy up top, then by any of the people that they end up delegating their unaccountable power to. Not if he re-organized the military as a defensive force for the working class. The problem with the military leading to the coup was how they existed as right-aligned power structure. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 16:32
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Marenghi posted:are votes just done out in the open like that, not even a partition or divider at least up to your neck covering your vote? I must emphasize that there is a difference between bacon for political allies and actual payment for votes in a non-secret ballot. Voting for candidates whose actions will benefit your group (whether financially or otherwise) is a basic function of democracy. Rewarding and punishing individuals based on knowledge of their ballot cast is a form of coercion, and is particularly nefarious when involving the very poor, who may be forced to vote against their long-term interests for short term survival from the prize.
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Jun 23, 2022 21:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:What's supposed to be wrong here? Color choice? For starters, Biden being "center", Trudeau "center-left". Also, pretty much every South American government considered "left" is closer to center, except for Bolivia at least.
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Jun 24, 2022 01:03
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I was in Quito, Ecuador just as the strike, protests and blocking of roads and such started. My tour bus took a different route to the airport at 4:30am so we could go to the Galapagos. Guayaquil a couple days later was still clear.
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Jun 24, 2022 01:26
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Seizing and maintaining political power through force to protect the working class from imperialist subversion is good. Marenghi posted:2018 was actually a high point of immigration. It's been declining since. Even with the higher wages compared to Eastern Europe a lot aren't bothered any more due to the high cost of rent and living here. fnox posted:Because this is the exact poo poo you don't want the conservatives to do? It's bad when anyone does it. It's only bad when the people I disagree with do it; see:  Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i am referring to the fact that that bit of good treatment at US hands was purchased via a US-installed military dictator who spent several years violently purging Chile of all suspected of being insufficiently right wing. the signature terror move of his administration was murdering suspected left sympathizers- trade unionists, academics, homosexuals, you know, the usual roster of people deemed undesirable by the right- by throwing them out of helicopters. you may have heard some right wing shitheads referring to something about 'bring back helicopter rides?' they are referring to Chile, and an era they look back on as a golden age of American domination of those they consider less than human. On February 28, 2014, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced that Chile became the latest country to be eligible to participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). So tell me where the quid pro quo with Chile began for VWP access, given Pinochet was kicked out in 1990. You're connecting dots that don't exist just for a favorable narrative about imperialism. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 06:55
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i fly airplanes posted:Can you give any examples throughout history where the "working class" has been "protected" through a coup? Yes, Burkina Faso under Sankara. Mozambique under Samora Machel. Egypt under Nasser. It's certainly not the most likely way to end up with a dictatorship of the proletariat, but if there is popular will for the overthrow of a government, and the military takes part, it's not a given that the bourgeoisie will continue to maintain class rule just because of the circumstances of the initial overthrow of the state. i fly airplanes posted:It's only bad when the people I disagree with do it; see: Imagine being upset about January 6th in the US if it weren't fascists doing it. What exactly should we be angry about in that circumstance? Adventurism? That no concrete gains were made? WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 10:19
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The irony of having an “only trust your fists, police will never help you” tag while cheerfully cheering on brutal military dictatorships and police repression of civilian activists, many of which are socialists is not lost on me. You clearly don’t know poo poo about Latin America if you think the military, of any political affiliation, can improve things for civilians. An entire century worth of military juntas and dictatorships that have universally been the most shameful moments of our entire history on each respective country. Every single time we required hard fought revolutions to recover our freedom, and yet here you are gringo, thinking it’s gonna be different this time around.
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Jun 25, 2022 12:01
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fnox posted:The irony of having an “only trust your fists, police will never help you” tag while cheerfully cheering on brutal military dictatorships and police repression of civilian activists, many of which are socialists is not lost on me. lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion Our 'fists' should form the very basis for the revolutionary armies and security forces we need to protect ourselves. Do you think you can loving stop an invasion, coup or colour revolution with witty placards?
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Jun 25, 2022 13:48
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020) That is all the CIA managed to pull off, does this warrant thousands dead by security forces? The destruction of our forests under military authority? How about the systematic assaults on union leaders by Venezuelan military forces? The largest humanitarian crisis in Latin American history? Educate yourself.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:00
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