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Yeah that’s the poo poo. I wanna swim that channel.
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Jun 23, 2022 06:10
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Koos Group posted:It's not inconceivable that the Olympics would ban certain medical interventions. We have the case where they attempted that with Oscar Pistorius due to his amputated legs, or the fact that they don't allow anyone on the heart medicine trimetazidine. Pistorius was literally using an assistive device, albeit to overcome a disability. Trimetazidine is banned because it’s a performance enhancing drug that people who don’t need it take to get an edge. That’s only a valid comparison if there’s a concern that people will go through a male puberty to get a similar edge. Bar Ran Dun posted:I think that if we don’t have a lovely society this question eventually goes away. If trans kids don’t have to go through the wrong puberty this ceases to be a question. What harm is done?
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Jun 23, 2022 06:11
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think that if we don’t have a lovely society this question eventually goes away. If trans kids don’t have to go through the wrong puberty this ceases to be a question. If we lived in a better society we wouldn't have to exclude people but instead we have to exclude them for the sake of college athletics is one option but does feel like priority is reversed. Representation matters.
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Jun 23, 2022 06:14
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Pistorius was literally using an assistive device, albeit to overcome a disability. Trimetazidine is banned because it’s a performance enhancing drug that people who don’t need it take to get an edge. That’s only a valid comparison if there’s a concern that people will go through a male puberty to get a similar edge. Yes, I wasn't comparing it to male puberty or any trans issue, I was comparing it to your example of them not banning someone for an advantageous intervention on club foot, to show that they may very well do that.
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Jun 23, 2022 06:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I don’t have any data for you here other than personal anecdote . We used to do competitions about that at the Academy, I could hold my breath for 5-6 minutes under water not doing anything just staying submerged. That was quite good but other swimmers could go 30 - 40 seconds longer. I could swim about 150 yards underwater without coming up. Never seemed correlated to times. I mean there was always practicing breathing patterns. But the nationals qualifiers, those guys didn’t seem to give a poo poo or have it matter. Every other stroke breath patterns. So, honestly, I don't know much about swimming, but I don't think holding your breath underwater is a very scientific way to measure lung capacity. Using something like a spirometer seems like a better way to measure it. For the classic anecdote with lung capacity/swimming performance, I can point to your prior example of Phelps. As far as a study with its impact, this has been used in predictive analysis here: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/05.10.PMS.114.2.610-626 (full unlocked study found here). From this study, it appears that lung capacity is an important consideration for at least the 800m crawl race (see Table 1). Kalit fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jun 23, 2022 |
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Jun 23, 2022 06:28
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think that if we don’t have a lovely society this question eventually goes away. If trans kids don’t have to go through the wrong puberty this ceases to be a question. If there wasn't a trans woman doing well in it, exactly zero of the people upset about it would give a poo poo about women's collegiate swimming. It's a naked cudgel, dude. You're getting roped into reactionary bullshit and entertaining it is pointless because answers don't actually matter to the people asking the question
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Jun 23, 2022 06:43
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Kalit posted:So, honestly, I don't know much about swimming, but I don't think holding your breath underwater is a very scientific way to measure lung capacity. Using something like a spirometer seems like a better way to measure it. I’ve had mine measured clinically (it was high) a couple times for coaches, cause I did 200, 500, and 1000. That was middle school and early high school though. I ended up with the wrong build and got relatively slower as I grew so coaches stopped caring lol.
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Jun 23, 2022 06:53
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If we have to choose between having competitive sports and accepting trans people, then it's time for sports to end.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:02
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:If there wasn't a trans woman doing well in it, exactly zero of the people upset about it would give a poo poo about women's collegiate swimming. It's a naked cudgel, dude. You're getting roped into reactionary bullshit and entertaining it is pointless because answers don't actually matter to the people asking the question The fight always causes reaction. I am also worried about that. I don’t particularly care about the media or right wing nut jobs asking the question, gently caress them. I am interested in swimmers, particularly ones I know.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The fight always causes reaction. I am also worried about that. I don’t particularly care about the media or right wing nut jobs asking the question, gently caress them. I am interested in swimmers, particularly ones I know. If you don't care about "the media or right wing nut jobs asking the question" then why are you asking the exact same questions they do? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 23, 2022 07:19
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If we have to choose between having competitive sports and accepting trans people, then it's time for sports to end. Yeah but that isn’t the choice. This only matters way out on the tail. D2, D3 anything it’s not a problem I think.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:21
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some plague rats posted:If you don't care about "the media or right wing nut jobs asking the question" then why are you asking the exact same questions they do? Because this is what I hear from women who are swimmers I know.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:22
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Because this is what I hear from women who are swimmers I know. You should ask them if they think trans women are women.
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Jun 23, 2022 07:27
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Because this is what I hear from women who are swimmers I know. What, are they repeatedly losing to trans women?
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Jun 23, 2022 07:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:The president before last was a black nobody until his dnc speech and the dark horse in the 2008 primary he won. The number two contender in 2016 was an ancient Vermont socialist who'd never run for president before. The number three contender in 2020 was the gay mayor of the fourth largest city in Indiana whose name starts with 'butt'. I am not convinced that a deep bench is vital, nor that "there's not a clear left up and comer in the US media" means there won't be (or perhaps even that there isn't currently one).
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Jun 23, 2022 07:40
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McCaughey is way more likely to win than Beto and way more likely to implement good things than any Republican in Texas so it seems like a no-brainer to support him running for Governor there
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Jun 23, 2022 07:42
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B B posted:What's the "something" Biden is going to do to win over this age group? Even if Biden moves heaven and Earth and wins over 100% of the "don't know" group (which is very unlikely), he's still underwater with that age group by 10 points. These are disastrous numbers for Biden, given that he won that same age group by 24 points in 2020. He would have likely lost the election with the numbers he is pulling now. quote:It's all the more frustrating because we genuinely don't have a good explanation for it. Biden's approval is NINE POINTS LOWER THAN TRUMP'S AMONG YOUNG VOTERS, in the exact same poll, 4 years ago. That makes no sense if this is about policy. They're so close to getting it.
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Jun 23, 2022 08:32
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I mean we already have weight classes in wrestling and boxing right? It seems obvious you could build classes around other qualifiers relevant to the sport. And like yeah, if your sports mostly cater to the physical advantages of men and men's sports are the only ones anybody cares about, and we only care about the absolute optimum pinnacle of sports achievement, that feels like the thing that is causing the gender problems. A trans woman having a slight advantage at the Olympic level is a result of the structure that makes that an advantage, it isn't caused by a trans woman existing.
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Jun 23, 2022 08:35
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Oh yeah it’s a loving problem with a horrifying history. I think back, would I have fought for this person to swim if they had been on my team, yes. But is the decision being made by governing body the one that is fair to the competitors as a group, yes. Mmm, you still aren't getting the "go gently caress off" part. Because the older "defining womanhood" versions were *also* made my the governing body.
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Jun 23, 2022 08:41
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Epic High Five posted:McCaughey is way more likely to win than Beto and way more likely to implement good things than any Republican in Texas so it seems like a no-brainer to support him running for Governor there I mean, I completely agree, especially given what's at stake, and with all the built-in popularity and media training he has. It's a waste for him not to step up. But I thought he'd already announced his decision earlier this year to stay on the side lines? I wonder if Uvalde changed his mind.
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Jun 23, 2022 08:53
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Unfortunately that’s not going to work with swimming at the elite level because it isn’t an arbitrary division. Again you can look at the top times reports which show the top 100 men and women in each event. I would define the groups based on fastest completion of a qualification event, where your record determines which group you should compete with... kinda like how boxing does with weight... and then you can compete in your speed class or faster. If the best swimmers happen to be men, let them compete in that best swimmer's category. Nobody's excluded, anyone can compete at their level or higher. Anyone who feels they can compete against anyone else is allowed to. The problem seems to really be that most people only value the heavyweight champion... well... go fix capitalism, don't make trans persons second class citizens because capitalism is corrupting and people are idiots.
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Jun 23, 2022 10:16
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Bel Shazar posted:I would define the groups based on fastest completion of a qualification event, where your record determines which group you should compete with... kinda like how boxing does with weight... and then you can compete in your speed class or faster. If the best swimmers happen to be men, let them compete in that best swimmer's category.
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Jun 23, 2022 12:01
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Epic High Five posted:McCaughey is way more likely to win than Beto and way more likely to implement good things than any Republican in Texas so it seems like a no-brainer to support him running for Governor there
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Jun 23, 2022 12:12
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Epic High Five posted:McCaughey is way more likely to win than Beto and way more likely to implement good things than any Republican in Texas so it seems like a no-brainer to support him running for Governor there FlamingLiberal posted:He's not running Both of these claims are true
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Jun 23, 2022 12:17
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You know, I can get that red state Democrat parties are basically rump parties full of failsons and weirdos that the main party barely even bothers to support, or that Democrats have high and sometimes unrealistic hopes for winning them even if it mainly involves demographics=destiny, but both at once being proudly continued is a bit of a head-scratcher.
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Jun 23, 2022 12:37
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Bel Shazar posted:I would define the groups based on fastest completion of a qualification event, where your record determines which group you should compete with... kinda like how boxing does with weight... and then you can compete in your speed class or faster. If the best swimmers happen to be men, let them compete in that best swimmer's category. Unworkable for team events like cycling, but that is actually a pretty good idea for the solo stuff. The National Labor Relations Board is asking a court to reinstate seven Starbucks workers who were allegedly fired illegally because they were involved in union organizing. For those who want a Starbucks union drive update.
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Jun 23, 2022 13:36
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I think it's important to start here: Swimming's "solution" to this is just straight up transphobic bullshit, there's no defending it. And that's really the central problem with this topic: we can't honestly talk about whether MtF athletes upset competitive balance because most of this conversation isn't about that. Paula Radcliffe, women's marathon world record holder and probable doper, has come out swinging about "women's sport" but constantly says gross, transphobic poo poo in the process. So I'm always nervous about this conversation because I think, as a runner and scientist, that there's something we need to think about, but it's so steeped fundamentally in just being assholes to trans people that the only time I haven't seen this conversation go completely off the rails is when we've literally had a sub-elite trans woman in the room. Kalit posted:Just ballpark spitting here, but for swimming specifically, what about different categories such as lung capacity? Probably could use other measurements, but that seems like an important one. The problem with breaking down competitive groups by criteria other than sex is that there's no simply-measured characteristic that will have as large of an effect as sex on performance. Sex is clearly not trivially measured because it is not actually binary, but self-reporting mostly works. Every sport would need to develop new criteria, and you might be able to make it work by some multifactorial consideration of physiological parameters, but imagine putting every somewhat-competitive runner through a VO2Max test and a muscle biopsy before figuring out what group they run in. And you do have to do it with every somewhat-competitive athlete, because mediocre weekend warrior men can push elite women off the podium in some sports - just eliminating divisions and having one big open field simply doesn't work. An ELO/MMR approach also doesn't work for this reason because nobody wants to watch a race between elite women and a bunch of cis male nobodies.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:00
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Tnega posted:Unworkable for team events like cycling, but that is actually a pretty good idea for the solo stuff. Qualify each member of the team. The team as a whole can compete in the lowest category available to it's highest ranking member.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:32
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Why do we need a hard scientific set of criteria for skill level? Let people compete at the bracket they've proven they can compete at in previous lower skill tiers.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why do we need a hard scientific set of criteria for skill level? Let people compete at the bracket they've proven they can compete at in previous lower skill tiers. The reason "we" need a hard scientific quantification for anything is simply that life in Technopoly requires it. Neil Postman posted:In Technopoly, it is not enough to argue that the segregation of blacks and whites in school is immoral, and it is useless to offer Black Boy or Invisible Man or The Fire Next Time as proof. The courts must be shown that standardized academic and psychological tests must reveal that blacks do less well than whites and feel demeaned when segregation exists. In Technopoly, it is not enough to say it is immoral and degrading to allow people to be homeless. You cannot get anywhere by asking a judge, or a politician, or a bureaucrat to read Les Misérables or Nana or, indeed, the New Testament. You must show that statistics have produced data revealing the homeless to be unhappy and to be a drain on the economy. Neither Dostoevsky nor Freud, Dickens nor Weber, Twain nor Marx, is now a dispenser of legitimate knowledge. They are interesting; they are "worth reading"; they are the artifacts of our past. But as for "truth," we must turn to "science."
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Jun 23, 2022 14:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why do we need a hard scientific set of criteria for skill level? Let people compete at the bracket they've proven they can compete at in previous lower skill tiers. To set a lower bound below which they can't compete.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:52
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When will the media start focusing on the real issue in sports: those left-handed sickos ruining baseball.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:58
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why do we need a hard scientific set of criteria for skill level? Let people compete at the bracket they've proven they can compete at in previous lower skill tiers. My belief is actually that both of these options are so stupid, destructive, and counterproductive that it's better to keep the current male v. female divisions and let trans women compete as women, even if there's an advantage.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:12
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Lib and let die posted:The reason "we" need a hard scientific quantification for anything is simply that life in Technopoly requires it. For leftist policy, yes. We need an infinite amount of data to say that putting people in homes reduces homelessness, and they'll say it's not enough. For conservative policy, "birth control means women will have more sex" is all you need to craft policy.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:12
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Lib and let die posted:https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1410709115333234691?s=20&t=mZ_tyRpr_UgXZlkayQAr3w I wonder what inflation’s knocked the prices on all those up to by now
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Jun 23, 2022 15:19
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A single hot dog is now $4,000
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Jun 23, 2022 15:28
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FlamingLiberal posted:A single hot dog is now $4,000 That one Arrested Development banana joke hits a little different when a banana is actually $10
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Jun 23, 2022 15:30
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Nucleic Acids posted:I wonder what inflation’s knocked the prices on all those up to by now Using my local supermarket: Campbell's Pork & Beans = $2.97 up from $1.90 Ground Beef 85% lean = $15.58 up from $8.20 Hood Vanilla Ice Cream = $6.67 up from $4.69 Center Cut Pork Chops = $14.97 up from $11.63 Nature's Promise Lemonade = $4.95 up from $3.65 Boar's head sliced cheddar = $10 up from $4.05 Lays Potato Chips = $5.09 up from $4.93 Could shave a few bucks using 80% lean and store brand everything, but I'd say this is about right.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:34
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Bear Enthusiast posted:When will the media start focusing on the real issue in sports: those left-handed sickos ruining baseball. They should play in their own league, and ban all switch hitters!
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Jun 23, 2022 15:47
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So the Supreme Court essentially made all gun control regulation impossible today https://twitter.com/mjs_dc/status/1539979577828802560?s=21&t=CEAKvRx6ZyndWA3gw3hg6g (Thread) tl;dr- The Court essentially ruled that they are establishing a new test on gun restrictions where courts are no longer allowed to use the possibility of violence as a reason to place restrictions on guns This is complete insanity
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Jun 23, 2022 15:51
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