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My experience in the military and seeing how the Navy ran a "merit based" class society is what gave me the perspective go from centrist lib with some vaguely civil libertarian/anarchist sympathies to leftist. Though I'm probably not representative of any wide trends since before that I tried being a cop right out of college and that made is what made me go from "apolitical centrist" or whatever to at least become an ardent civil libertarian and liberal watching how the court and police system chewed people up even on the "right side" of it, but I didn't have a critique of it beyond "something is very wrong here and my coworkers learn to behave like psychopaths." I don't think any of that would have been possible anyway had I not been at least exposed to leftist ideas in punk music and in turn some anarchist/leftist literature (like crimethinc.com waaaay back in the day) that while I didn't "buy it" then it at least bounced some ideas in my head that matured later when my life circumstances made me realize something was still very very wrong with society and then framed a microexample in such a way I had a jumping off point to examine assumptions I held until I was in the military that I figure many liberals have. In any case in order to develop a critique based upon seeing system failures you really do need some sort of theory, and unfortunately "objectivism" or other lovely libertarian ideologies are much easier to stumble across than leftist ideas for gen x'ers and older millennials in the US, unless you happened to live in an area where a sorta punk/anarchist scene offered a imo mediocre but at least non-right wing alternative. I think it's good though that we're finally starting to see a break-in of actual left wing media in some spaces, like explicitly Marxist podcasts like Chapo or some of the the less-incoherent anarchists and left-liberals like in the Robert Evans verse seem to be becoming way more common and mainstream since 2008 and 2016 showed many people that both liberalism and neo-liberalism broadly offered very little and libertarians had not much interesting to say, because either libertarians are deluded neoliberals or they're cryptofascists.
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Jun 18, 2022 09:28
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Ex cons have actually experienced consequences for their actions. Also they're often subject to the worst excesses of privatisation and legal slave labour. The second part should imply that there would be a difference in ex-con libertarianism rates depending on how privatised prisons are in the jurisdiction. I do agree that libertarianism is most popular with people who are rich enough that they are unlikely to experience the consequences of their actions. With people who are poor enough to go to prison for the average reasons never being a target audience for libertarianism in the first place.
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Jun 18, 2022 10:34
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https://twitter.com/LibertariansDP/status/1538654916671053824?t=yI0utRv-HTAouvSCTlAGfQ&s=19 Not sure what it has to do with Libertarianism, except that they seem to view the existence of vegans as some dire threat to their own existence of scarfing down the entire cow-everything but the moo. There's definitely a subset of yeoman-Libertarian who love to be smug about correcting misconceptions about unsustainable farming practices in the most condescending and straw man way possible.
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Jun 21, 2022 03:56
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How in the world do they imagine that "25x more animals" get slaughtered to create vegan protein? What?
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Jun 21, 2022 08:45
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QuarkJets posted:How in the world do they imagine that "25x more animals" get slaughtered to create vegan protein? What? Maybe all the cows that be thrown away when the beef industry crashes overnight?
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Jun 21, 2022 08:56
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QuarkJets posted:How in the world do they imagine that "25x more animals" get slaughtered to create vegan protein? What? It's also weird that they're against "food" "made" in "a" lab when presumably they're also against any kind of FDA or labeling requirements. If I can make better food in a bioreactor than you can in a field, isn't that just free market industrial progress, or does it not count somehow?
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Jun 21, 2022 09:02
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QuarkJets posted:How in the world do they imagine that "25x more animals" get slaughtered to create vegan protein? What? Tilling the soil kills various fauna that lives in the soil. They are trying to bring up the hypocrisy of vegans acting like their diet is more ethical by pointing out that a lot more creatures die for you to get a plate of vegetables vs a steak. They conveniently contrast both extremes here of course-the most unsustainable factory farming practices vs the lowest impact free range cattle farming. So in the case of beef consumption the cows are using/eating off land that is fallow and growing wild grasses and plants, where no actual fertilizers or tractors would be needed. In the Facebook page, a lady came in and pointed out how only 4% of beef is actually grass fed and some huge percentage of corn and soybeans are used for animal feed. Then a bunch of libertarian pendants came in to argue how that only refers to how cattle are 'finished' and that most beef cattle is actually grass fed most of their lives regardless, and also how much of the soy grown for animal feed is the waste material left after soybean oil production and other food and chemical uses. There were some libertarians that blundered in baffled about what it had to do with Libertarians-shouldn't you be free to eat whatever you want? Who cares about vegans? But it of course loops back to anything contrary to their lifestyle is seen as a dire threat, and how leftists/socialists/vegans are a bunch of city people who have no idea where their food comes from and just parrot whatever leftist talking points they heard 
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Jun 21, 2022 13:10
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/LibertariansDP/status/1538654916671053824?t=yI0utRv-HTAouvSCTlAGfQ&s=19 Good ol toxic masculinity. Eating meat is manly, like being a captain of industry. So of course they laser focus onto pushes for meat reduction, to the exclusion of even other agriculture related climate change stuff.
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Jun 21, 2022 14:24
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 https://twitter.com/LibertariansDP/status/1536501502205992963?t=Q-ujRkoo1jjtKSGaorOoTA&s=19
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Jun 21, 2022 15:32
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Statism is when they make you boil the milk to not get tuberculosis.
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Jun 21, 2022 15:52
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/LibertariansDP/status/1538654916671053824?t=yI0utRv-HTAouvSCTlAGfQ&s=19 Also it's cow burps that cause the most methane, but that's just the cherry on this sundae of wrong beliefs.
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Jun 21, 2022 21:15
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They argued that the grass decomposing releases the same amount of methane, since the cows are the ones eating the grass that would have broken down into soil regardless.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:23
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The statist judge unfairly ignored my logically accurate defense of "they would have died anyway at some point." They do accidentally make a good point that letting grass rot in an anoxic environment releases about the same amount of methane whether it's in a cow's rumen or a swamp or a wet heap of lawn clippings, so along that line of thinking maybe the best thing to do with grasses is either burn them in place in the open or decompose them in containment and burn the methane, either way gets you no more carbon dioxide than was taken out of the air for the grasses to grow in the first place. Decomposition doesn't work too well at small scale though, people have made working homestead digesters for turning animal manure and grass clippings into biogas but they're not great for reliability or indoor cooking, so maybe the best option is entering into communal ventures for gas and CCGT power. Bookchin's idea that (so claimed) libertarian ideals only actually work communally rises up again.
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Jun 21, 2022 23:59
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Nah that's too many steps just let Yeoman-Libertarian ranchers strip mine the Prarie of greenery since beef is obviously more nutrient dense than vegetables anyway. These types are also really big on hunting and figure that hunting venison is also more ethical than being vegan, since the animals were again browsing on a lot of stuff even vegans wouldn't be bothering with and their food source isn't something humans cultivated. I think there was a Citations Needed episode about how settler colonialism gave rise to this pioneer aesthetic of 'living off the land'. I'm sure some of them genuinely like the outdoors and roughing it but I'm betting most of these types of ranchers or homesteaders just don't want to share with other people. I'm reminded of this subplot from The Power of the Dog where Benedict Cumberbatch's character hates natives so much than after drying out his cattle hides he just loving burns them even though local natives would very much trade for them so they could use them for leather.
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Jun 22, 2022 00:25
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Good ol toxic masculinity. Eating meat is manly, like being a captain of industry. So of course they laser focus onto pushes for meat reduction, to the exclusion of even other agriculture related climate change stuff. For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Gout?"
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Jun 22, 2022 13:12
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Panfilo posted:They argued that the grass decomposing releases the same amount of methane, since the cows are the ones eating the grass that would have broken down into soil regardless. There wouldn’t be grass there if the land hadn’t been cleared for cattle, though, there’d be thick scrublands and carbon-fixing forests. Pasture doesn’t occur naturally, it takes human effort to develop.
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Jun 22, 2022 14:06
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BalloonFish posted:I think you saw my post in the UKMT Spring Edition: I remember very little from Railroad tycoon except in the opening there were some businessmen in top hats and they'd show you their hand when you moused-over them and one I think was cheating.
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Jun 22, 2022 19:39
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upsidedown posted:For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Gout?" Libertarians: Who is John Gout? 
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Jun 23, 2022 03:05
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:There wouldn’t be grass there if the land hadn’t been cleared for cattle, though, there’d be thick scrublands and carbon-fixing forests. Pasture doesn’t occur naturally, it takes human effort to develop. Vast amount of the US, eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa, are natural pasture land.
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Jun 23, 2022 03:28
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Panfilo posted:
full image:  Sure, every time raw milk comes back around people get sick and sometimes children die, but hey statism.
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Jun 23, 2022 13:32
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Maybe that's the idea, the kid is the last in the generational chain.
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Jun 23, 2022 13:34
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Realistically it's all a red herring of course. These fiercely independent rancher types have a surprisingly thin skin about their way of life. I see them frequently go out of their way to throw out gotchas against "city folk" in regards to misconceptions about agriculture and ranching. There's a few Dairy farmer Tiktoks who seem to exist to repudiate vegan claims about animal welfare and ethics of raising cattle for milk. Unsurprisingly these guys who are operating multimillion dollar milking parlor setups choose to argue with tiktok kids that aren't even out of high school. Not all of them are condescending, some do seem intended to share how their operations work for the sake of informing people, but regardless it's self serving and wouldn't be happening at all if people weren't questioning the ethics of it in the first place.
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Jun 23, 2022 13:38
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Megillah Gorilla posted:full image: Libertarianism is shielding the state from seeing a man’s relationship with a young boy. AGC, actually.
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Jun 23, 2022 13:49
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Megillah Gorilla posted:full image: I like how sound waves are a line-of-sight mode of communications, meaning the shield only needs to block the "CIVIC DUTY!" shout since that shouter's head is absorbing the entirety of the "PAY UR TAXES!" shout. Whether 'tis freer in the mind to suffer The words and phrases of outrageous statism, Or to take shield against a speech of troubles, And by interposing mute them? To raw: too milk...
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Jun 23, 2022 13:56
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Vahakyla posted:Vast amount of the US, eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa, are natural pasture land. The great plains are the product of multi generational geo engineering projects from indigenous peoples.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:35
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Blue Footed Booby posted:The great plains are the product of multi generational geo engineering projects from indigenous peoples. No they are not.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:46
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From your link: "For 10,000-20,000 years, native people used fire annually as a tool to assist in hunting, transportation, and safety.[7] Evidence of ignition sources of fire in the tall grass prairie are overwhelmingly human as opposed to lightning.[8] Humans, and grazing animals, were active participants in the process of prairie formation and the establishment of the diversity of graminoid and forbs species. Fire has the effect on prairies of removing trees, clearing dead plant matter, and changing the availability of certain nutrients in the soil from the ash produced. Fire kills the vascular tissue of trees, but not prairie species, as up to 75% (depending on the species) of the total plant biomass is below the soil surface and will re-grow from its deep (upwards of 20 feet[9]) roots. Without disturbance, trees will encroach on a grassland and cast shade, which suppresses the understory. Prairie and widely spaced oak trees evolved to coexist in the oak savanna ecosystem."
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Jun 23, 2022 14:50
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Did you even read your own wiki? not that it's a source but the page you just linked posted:Tallgrass prairie evolved over tens of thousands of years with the disturbances of grazing and fire. Native ungulates such as bison, elk, and white-tailed deer roamed the expansive, diverse grasslands before European colonization of the Americas.[6] For 10,000-20,000 years, native people used fire annually as a tool to assist in hunting, transportation, and safety.[7] Evidence of ignition sources of fire in the tall grass prairie are overwhelmingly human as opposed to lightning.[8] Humans, and grazing animals, were active participants in the process of prairie formation and the establishment of the diversity of graminoid and forbs species. Fire has the effect on prairies of removing trees, clearing dead plant matter, and changing the availability of certain nutrients in the soil from the ash produced. Fire kills the vascular tissue of trees, but not prairie species, as up to 75% (depending on the species) of the total plant biomass is below the soil surface and will re-grow from its deep (upwards of 20 feet[9]) roots. Efb
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Jun 23, 2022 14:51
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Grace Baiting posted:I like how sound waves are a line-of-sight mode of communications, meaning the shield only needs to block the "CIVIC DUTY!" shout since that shouter's head is absorbing the entirety of the "PAY UR TAXES!" shout. I mean that's pretty obviously an edit of a picture about generational abuse.
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Jun 23, 2022 14:58
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There was a whole apocalypse when people tried to grow more than just grass in the great planes and it took modern science to make more forms of agriculture viable there.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:02
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Farmers are very often greedy, stupid, stubborn and insane and will ruin their land and everything nearby if allowed to in attempts to squeeze out more profit.
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Jun 23, 2022 15:04
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lmao
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Jun 23, 2022 16:11
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Harold Fjord posted:Did you even read your own wiki? not that it's a source but Even using the wrong definition of geo-engineering, the Great Plains were a natural geographical feature modified to a certain extent by the various plains tribes and their ancestors. That's not to downplay their effect on the prairies, but as far as I've read they had nowhere near the same impact as, say, what human occupation of Europe did in terms of deforesting most of the continent. EDIT: Ignore, me not read good today Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 00:27
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:That's not geo-engineering though. Linking to broad overviews on Wikipedia that, now two-for-two, say the opposite of what you seem to be getting at, is not actually a good way of handling this discussion. Perhaps if you were to put down a specific definition of what you consider to be sufficient to constitute "geoengineering" since apparently 20,000 years of "a certain extent" of modification doesn't count, you'd come across as less like the thread's subjects. E: Okay, so mass deforestation counts as geoengineering but... deliberately maintaining and improving what is already there doesn't?
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Jun 24, 2022 00:33
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Somfin posted:Linking to broad overviews on Wikipedia that, now two-for-two, say the opposite of what you seem to be getting at, is not actually a good way of handling this discussion. quote:Climate engineering, or commonly geoengineering, is deliberate and large-scale intervention in the Earth's climate system Oh  I read that as "climate change". Jesus Christ I'm just gonna drop this and shame-walk outta here
Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 00:41
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wishing the bitcoin carnivores would start on their bullshit again just so i could use Who Is John Gout
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Jun 24, 2022 01:00
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That geoengineering article defines it as deliberate and large-scale intervention in the Earth's climate system, which has only begun to occur this century, so that would not be a suitable term for what the indigenous peoples of the Americas were doing. The article itself also mentions that the term is "largely an artefact and a result of the terms frequent use in popular discourse" and "so vague and all-encompassing as to have lost much meaning".
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Jun 24, 2022 02:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I mean that's pretty obviously an edit of a picture about generational abuse. 
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Jun 24, 2022 02:48
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I'm less interested in the semantics of geoengineering as I am amused by Libertarian carnivores who treat beef and venison as some superfoods and spend all day spouting gotchas to vegans. You'd think the "USDA is the nanny state telling you what to eat to brainwash you" type people would be first in line to eat/synthesize lab grown beef or bugs but they are so freaked out by all of it because it gets rolled into all their other government conspiracies.
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Jun 24, 2022 04:19
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Ultimately it comes down to is "what I am already doing anyway just happens to be the ideal way of life, because I am right and everyone else is wrong."
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Jun 24, 2022 04:41
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