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Guavanaut posted:Sometimes the mythological founder comes long after the nation they allegedly founded, in which case you can't really say that it was named for them. That goes for all the ones in the map, I'm just annoyed it includes some but leaves many on the table.
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Jun 24, 2022 10:21
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Also sometimes the country is not named for the mythological founder. Case in point, Israel is not called Davidland. Or Greenland actually being named by a guy called Red (although maybe he was colourblind?)
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Jun 24, 2022 10:21
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Grevling posted:That goes for all the ones in the map  on purpose.
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Jun 24, 2022 10:33
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BonHair posted:. Or Greenland actually being named by a guy called Red 
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Jun 24, 2022 11:19
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It was named Greenland to make people think they could make a lot of green (money) there.
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Jun 24, 2022 13:47
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Forget letting people gaze into my ground floor window, I feel weird walking by at night and seeing some strangers hanging out in their lit up home.
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Jun 24, 2022 15:57
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Slight tangent, but I've always been struck by the fact that the Norse discovered North America (and recorded it in their sagas) and then proceeded to do nothing with that, except trying and failing to establish a single colony. Iceland must have been garbage-tier compared to some of the land available there, but I guess the latter also had those pesky natives.Saladman posted:The Swiss very much keep ground floor curtains drawn, I lived in central Lausanne for 4 years and never saw a ground floor street-facing apartment with open curtains, at least definitely not at night. Although ground floor apartments with windows opening onto the street are not so common like in NL, and often "ground floor" windows are elevated a meter or so off the ground (e.g. as on this street: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5283468,6.6177153,3a,75y,310.58h,88.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVMI3T_FCUq2wcxLD5vFeDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 ) Well, I guess that settles it. So much for Calvinism being the (sole) cause. By the by, I am amazed at the sheer number of different places you've lived in, your job must be very demanding in terms of moving around Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 16:54
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afaik the Vinland "colony" lasted at least some years, whereas the settlements in Greenland lasted several centuries. By comparison, Iceland and the Faroes were known by sailors even before the landnám, a much shorter trip, and still uninhabited (except for possibly some Irish hermit monks I suppose). Probably the biggest problem was the small number of people willing/wanting/needing to go further than newly-"settled" Greenland which already had lots of space and resources. They'd have to be more into exploring than homesteading, I think, which kind of precludes creating colonies. Also basically have to be self-sufficient, which would require a lot more people than a handful of ships. I guess they could trade with the first nations, but that would depend a lot on the westward hotheads having good social skills lol Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 17:33
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Guavanaut posted:
Rus wasn't a person. It probably means "rowers"
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Jun 24, 2022 17:36
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Also the places the Spaniards explored in their much bigger and better ships were less hostile environments and full of loot and crops that Vinland really lacked. I don't think Europe started getting tight on wood until centuries later.
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Jun 24, 2022 17:44
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      Bonus map for ants 
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Jun 24, 2022 17:53
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to be clear, i was not saying that greenland was uninhabited, only iceland and the faroes.
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Jun 24, 2022 17:59
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Kind of weird to see Métis in the legend.
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Jun 24, 2022 18:08
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Why? Inuit, Métis, and First Nations people all live in parts of the canadian arctic
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Jun 24, 2022 18:11
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Jun 24, 2022 18:12
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Phlegmish posted:Slight tangent, but I've always been struck by the fact that the Norse discovered North America (and recorded it in their sagas) and then proceeded to do nothing with that, except trying and failing to establish a single colony. Iceland must have been garbage-tier compared to some of the land available there, but I guess the latter also had those pesky natives. The Vinlanders probably ended up like most of the earliest English settlements. People just realizing it would be easier to assimilate into the Native Americans who’ve already figured out how to survive in this environment have established trade networks and, you know, women.
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Jun 24, 2022 19:41
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There isn't really any mystery about the Vinland settlements because written sources tell us the settlers abandoned any more attempts to settle there because the existing inhabitants were hostile, and they went home. They were only there for a couple of years anyway iirc. Greenlanders may have returned on occasion to get timber. There is a lot of mystery surrounding the disappearance of the Greenland colony, including speculation if some may have joined the Inuit.
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Jun 24, 2022 20:43
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:The Vinlanders probably ended up like most of the earliest English settlements. People just realizing it would be easier to assimilate into the Native Americans who’ve already figured out how to survive in this environment have established trade networks and, you know, women. It's funny how often that's the obvious and most likely solution to a historical mystery, but the public imagination flatly refuses to entertain the notion because our cultural narrative just shuts down and reboots at the prospect of Europeans assimilating into native societies instead of the other way around. The other thing that explains a huge number of early Colonial ghost stories is people seeing bears at night and losing their poo poo. Quorum fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jun 24, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 20:52
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Grevling posted:There isn't really any mystery about the Vinland settlements because written sources tell us the settlers abandoned any more attempts to settle there because the existing inhabitants were hostile, and they went home. They were only there for a couple of years anyway iirc. Greenlanders may have returned on occasion to get timber. There is a lot of mystery surrounding the disappearance of the Greenland colony, including speculation if some may have joined the Inuit. This is very true, the Norse were pretty good about writing sagas about important people that way. But there's also the fact that Norse society was based on well established agriculture (meaning access to sowing seed and cleared land) and trade (and in the later period unilateral trade, also known as plundering) with medieval cultures. Neither of those were available in Canada, so it was either too much effort to get established or just not really interesting in the first place. If they'd met Aztecs or something, it might have been different.
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Jun 24, 2022 21:00
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Quorum posted:It's funny how often that's the obvious and most likely solution to a historical mystery, but the public imagination flatly refuses to entertain the notion because our cultural narrative just shuts down and reboots at the prospect of Europeans assimilating into native societies instead of the other way around. I could definitely see myself being tempted to join up with the local natives if they'd have me. "They're eating. Again. I want to eat..." "Wouldn't you rather pray that providence provides us with bounti--" "I CAN DO THAT WHILE EATING, GOODWIFE KAREN"
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Jun 24, 2022 21:01
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Quorum posted:The other thing that explains a huge number of early Colonial ghost stories is people seeing bears at night and losing their poo poo. What ghost stories?
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Jun 24, 2022 21:07
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Grevling posted:It was named Greenland to make people think they could make a lot of green (money) there. The Norse had over 64 different words for money including a word for "money you take from somebody before you burn their house down", and a word for "money you take from somebody before you burn their boat"
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Jun 24, 2022 21:11
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I'm posting at work and trying to recall information from a Great Courses lecture on The Vikings I listened to several years ago, but re: the Norse in North America and why they left / didn't stay; At least one settlement was suddenly attacked by natives one day without explanation. The settlers were puzzled why the natives, with whom they had been trading, would turn on them like this. The theory presented in the lecture I heard was that among the goods the Norse traded were dairy products, which the lactose-intolerant natives ate and then got sick from. The natives interpreted this as an attempted poisoning and thus attacked the settlers. The_Other fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 24, 2022 21:14
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Milo and POTUS posted:What ghost stories? Less ghost stories and more cryptid stories, I suppose, but stuff like the Jersey Devil. Critters be spooky (and blaming the spookiness on your local unmarried woman or other social pariah is what all the cool kids are doing).
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Jun 24, 2022 21:20
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BonHair posted:This is very true, the Norse were pretty good about writing sagas about important people that way. Were the Aztecs even established circa 1000? I know the Mayans were as were the Toltecs. The Norse weren't in Vinland long enough to even exchange diseases. If there were any attempts at trade, it seems as though neither party was interested in what the other had. Still, that does bring up a historical question of "What if the Norse introduced horses to the North American natives rather than the Spanish 500 years later?"
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Jun 24, 2022 21:22
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There was a regular thing of people loving off from the main colony to live with the natives, I'm not sure if there were any long-term consequences for that on the native side or how many people might've come back to the colony at some point. It might've been worse in Virginia where England was doing the whole prisoner colony and kidnapping rando undesirables from off the street that they would later do for Australia, but Virginia won't just loving kill you for wandering away from settlements as much as Australia would. I think back in the day, fiction was more aware of that side of things, and in a lot of old genre stuff you'll see the archetype of the frontiersman being acquainted with natives. BonHair posted:If they'd met Aztecs or something, it might have been different. If they traveled more than twice the distance, sure. But they would probably all just loving die in the heat anyways.
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Jun 24, 2022 21:28
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Carthag Tuek posted:afaik the Vinland "colony" lasted at least some years, whereas the settlements in Greenland lasted several centuries. By comparison, Iceland and the Faroes were known by sailors even before the landnám, a much shorter trip, and still uninhabited (except for possibly some Irish hermit monks I suppose). Yeah, well. Iceland was colonized by some people who were thrown out of Viking-age Norway for being difficult. (Then they spent the next couple centuries waging complicated vendettas against each other. Which is entertaining for us to read about a thousand years later but must have seemed like a bit of a bother at the time.) Greenland was settled by some guys who failed to get along in Iceland. Then there were these dudes who didn't fit in Greenland, and tried sailing further west... would you really expect them to be the best at making new friends?
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Jun 24, 2022 21:34
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A lot of the Icelandic settlers were dudes who had been on the other side of Harald Fairhair's conquest of Norway. Either as petty kings and chieftains that lost to him or as soldiers in the armies of such rival kings. A lot of others were just criminals.
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Jun 24, 2022 21:52
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Right. Difficult people, who went on to be difficult at each other.
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Jun 24, 2022 22:24
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You want to talk failed colonies?
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Jun 24, 2022 22:26
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The_Other posted:I'm posting at work and trying to recall information from a Great Courses lecture on The Vikings I listened to several years ago, but re: the Norse in North America and why they left / didn't stay; Bear in mind that we have only one side of the story, namely the side that was "suddenly, inexplicably attacked for no reason we were perfect gentlemen". The dairy theory is probably not bad, but there's also the chance that they forgot to mention something they did. As for Aztecs, my point was just that it would have been interesting of there had been an iron age (or even bronze age) culture instead of the (as I remember) hunter gatherers who arrived there a few centuries earlier. Aside about dairy in Greenland: while they did indeed have cattle (transported on boats) in Greenland, there are stories about the farmers literally carrying them out from the stables in the spring because they were famished. Greenland is, not cattle country. Aside about Norse/Danish words: don't count us as honourable warriors, we have two words for poisoning, one for deadly poison (forgive) and one for non-lethal (forgifte).
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Jun 24, 2022 22:32
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BonHair posted:The dairy theory is probably not bad, but there's also the chance that they forgot to mention something they did.
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Jun 24, 2022 22:48
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You want to talk failed colonies? Just how many Dariens did the Scots attempt to establish?
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Jun 24, 2022 23:31
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You want to talk failed colonies? It's cute that Scots imagine they have lots of Italian immigration in our present timeline. Meanwhile on Earth 3...
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Jun 24, 2022 23:35
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Quorum posted:The other thing that explains a huge number of early Colonial ghost stories is people seeing bears at night and losing their poo poo. Last year my dog had to go out and pee at like 2am. I take her out to the grass patch at the end of the driveway, about thirty seconds later I hear a twig snap. I look over, point the flashlight in the direction and there's a loving bear staring at me from about 30 feet away. Now, I'm used to bears. Literally today I biked five feet away from one on the path. But when I tell you that I loving poo poo myself, grabbed the dog and sprinted into the house going "you know what just pee on the floor it's fine". Night bears are terrifying.
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Jun 25, 2022 04:48
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You want to talk failed colonies? Wow Scotland seems even more obscure than sweden when it comes to european countries that ended up parts of the US
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Jun 25, 2022 04:50
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Or didnt know something that someone else did. I would not be surprised if some guy was sneaking out banging the wife of the nearby tribe's chief. HookShot posted:Night bears are terrifying.
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Jun 25, 2022 05:51
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You want to talk failed colonies? I take the listed years to mean that Scotland still controls the Darien/New Inverness, Georgia colony to this day.
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Jun 25, 2022 07:01
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Phlegmish posted:Slight tangent, but I've always been struck by the fact that the Norse discovered North America (and recorded it in their sagas) and then proceeded to do nothing with that, except trying and failing to establish a single colony. Iceland must have been garbage-tier compared to some of the land available there, but I guess the latter also had those pesky natives. Yeah, lots of short-term contracts (well, like 4 years so not that short) and my wife was previously at the UN and another smaller international organization, and I could do like 80% of my work remotely and the in-person part could be done in intensive bursts, so we moved around a lot. Really got sick of it, but now we both have settled permanent contracts. Kind of glad to have only taken like 3 plane flights in the last 2.5 years since COVID. The beginning of COVID was a nightmare with that lifestyle/job format, but actually it turned out for the best.
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Jun 25, 2022 07:12
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The Norse had over 64 different words for money including a word for "money you take from somebody before you burn their house down", and a word for "money you take from somebody before you burn their boat" 'Plunder' and 'booty'?
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Jun 25, 2022 09:47
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