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Azza Bamboo posted:There's another option which is hire mercenaries. Then you only pay big for war when there's war. if you don't pay mercenaries during peace you get bandits, or your neighbour pays them and you get war skasion posted:The number of imprisoned unfree laborers in the United States right now exceeds the population of classical Sparta by a couple orders of magnitude. spartans didn't have a standing army, spartiates were a militia, same as other greeks
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Jun 24, 2022 23:40
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skasion posted:The number of imprisoned unfree laborers in the United States right now exceeds the population of classical Sparta by a couple orders of magnitude. The number, not the proportion. Surely most mid size modern countries have more fully illegal modern slaves in the criminal economy than there were helots
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Jun 24, 2022 23:46
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skasion posted:The number of imprisoned unfree laborers in the United States right now exceeds the population of classical Sparta by a couple orders of magnitude. The number of people in the US right now exceeds the world population during antiquity. Also, you're comparing a village to half a continent
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Jun 24, 2022 23:51
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ChubbyChecker posted:spartans didn't have a standing army, spartiates were a militia, same as other greeks It's a little fuzzier. They were a militia but not quite like other Greeks since they didn't work, they spent most of their time lazing around, LARPing, and occasionally doing a bit of training. They could avoid having the standard Greek style militia with the stupefying number of slaves around. Pure aristocrats instead of having to do poo poo. But a professional army is one that's always standing for service and spends most of its time on military stuff (which is mostly not combat of course). In Sparta they weren't doing anything close to that.
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Jun 25, 2022 00:03
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Grand Fromage posted:It's a little fuzzier. They were a militia but not quite like other Greeks since they didn't work, they spent most of their time lazing around, LARPing, and occasionally doing a bit of training. They could avoid having the standard Greek style militia with the stupefying number of slaves around. Pure aristocrats instead of having to do poo poo. But a professional army is one that's always standing for service and spends most of its time on military stuff (which is mostly not combat of course). In Sparta they weren't doing anything close to that.
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Jun 25, 2022 00:05
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ChubbyChecker posted:if you don't pay mercenaries during peace you get bandits, or your neighbour pays them and you get war The Spartans didn’t actually have a professional standing army, but nobody did yet—the point is that they were seen to be a cut above the rest because basic social organization and activity of the elite class was militarized to a much greater extent than in other poleis. this, even if it was pretty pitiful by later standards that accept “moving in formation” as something armies should in fact be able to do, was the basis of their military reputation. The reason why Athenian politicians wouldn’t just try to get that rep by setting up a more regularized, better trained army is because once it exists, its leaders are the real elite, and in an extreme case like the spartiates could become a closed circle where everyone outside it was basically unfree. Like, no poo poo Xenophon, a military adventurer, thought Sparta was cool.
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Jun 25, 2022 00:23
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The Athenians had professional navy, and assorted mercenaries retainers on long-term contracts. One of the benefits of being a center of commerce and also running a protection racket over half the Greek world. There's also a case to be made that chronic soldiers who enlist to collect loot are professionals in a roundabout way. Later on, mercenaries proliferated in Greece during the Hellenic period, probably due to the decreasing viability of little polis militias during the intensified militarism of all those Diadochi Wars.
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Jun 25, 2022 03:00
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When we talk about the Spartan army people focus on the Spartiates, but it's important to remember the Spartan army also contained non-Spartiates fighting. Both Perioeci and Helots fought.
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Jun 25, 2022 03:36
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Later on, mercenaries proliferated in Greece during the Hellenic period, probably due to the decreasing viability of little polis militias during the intensified militarism of all those Diadochi Wars. Also does anyone know any good books that go over the diadochi?
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Jun 25, 2022 04:18
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Lot of mercenaries, and also there were a lot of fuckin Greeks absolutely everywhere. Magna Graecia alone probably had as many people as actual Greece, let alone all the Anatolian colonies, the Black Sea, the settlers spread all the way out to India. Greeks all over the fuckin' place. There's a reason why when the Romans showed up, Greek was the common language and culture of the whole eastern Mediterranean. Also, most battles were not slaughters so even with big wars, not that many people would die. Usually. If your siege camp got a plague in it though, lol. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 04:23
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Is that chart counting the Messenian helots as part of the population of Sparta, as opposed to a separate community?
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Jun 25, 2022 04:31
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Jazerus posted:yeah the greeks could have done a weekend warrior national guard kind of thing without putting all that much economic pressure on each city, i would think Remember that the Hoplites were from higher wealth tiers and that heavy infantry was a prestige position in these cultures. Thus, much of the Phalanx would be part of the landowning/farming elite or regularly engaged in other economic activities, as well as the political activities that are already using their time, and that transportation in from the country would be no small thing to make "national guard" days a pretty big imposition wrt time. You're not going to get those guys out for more than a couple days here and there. Pretty quickly we're hitting the "drill during campaign season" model of time:drill, and just moving a phalanx in proper fighting order takes practice on its own. So weekend warrior national guard kind of thing is pretty much describing what they were doing.
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Jun 25, 2022 04:31
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Silver2195 posted:Is that chart counting the Messenian helots as part of the population of Sparta, as opposed to a separate community? Absolutely, I can't even imagine why you wouldn't.
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Jun 25, 2022 04:37
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Nessus posted:My understanding is that the spartiates treated the helots pretty badly, even if we may assume some of the historical records are either summaries ("every bad thing over the last few years" presented as the yearly tradition) or exaggerations. What gave the spartiates the right to do so? I don't believe the Spartan citizenry treated the helots particularly badly, given the context. As for sources, we could review them, but for now I'll just say that the most popular set of accusations comes many centuries later in the Roman Empire (although you can dig up earlier ones). Those popular smears were penned by a Boeotian whose work puts even modern tabloid journos to shame. Forgive me for not feeding at that trough. As for what gave the Spartan citizenry the moral authority to do anything, that question requires a broader discussion of morality to properly set the context for our judgments. On a practical note I will just point to their strong reputation for eunomia and piety, and their long history serving as the leading city of Hellas and upholding independence and harmony throughout the hellenic world. The Greco-Buddhism thing is interesting. I doubt early Eleatic philosophy had any direct influence from the Shakyamuni fellow or any other Buddhists, given that Eleatic philosophy began out in the west (Elea is in modern "Italy") and Parmenides was born late 6th century. I guess the fact that earlier pre-socratics came to the west from Ionia could help create a buddhist narrative, and certainly they must have brought lots of interesting and influential ideas with them, but I'm happy to just accept that for about 200 years the entire Eurasian world saw radical philosophical expansions/developments. I wouldn't try too hard to make a strong narrative of x was taught by/following y, the record is too fragmentary to be certain of much. I do know that some allegedly Greco-Buddhist stuff is extant, the one that comes to mind is a dialogue with a Hellenic king (I looked up the title just now, "Milinda Panha"). Some thinkers like Pyrrho allegedly went to India with Alexander and traded ideas with the local philosophers. His stuff is all lost, as is the stuff from his most famous student, but Sextus Empiricus apparently believed in his philosophy. As an aside, Sextus Empiricus is one of our main sources on the Hellenistic philosopher Diodorus Cronus; he places Diodorus with the Eleatics and comments on his works at length. Very valuable stuff; the latest version of my work has a few pages exploring Diodorus contributions to Eleatic philosophy. SlothfulCobra posted:Almost all data about the Spartans comes from their enemies who were grumpy about losing the war. A fair bit of the contemporary source material comes from people who had favourable opinions on Sparta. Most, but not absolutely all, of the extremely negative stuff is from centuries later. I could work through the extant sources, but for a good period of time Sparta had the grudging respect, and at times outright love, of almost everyone in the hellenic world. If we want to find a city with a truly awful reputation, as related by contemporary accounts, read up on Th*bes. Truly a disgraceful city and disgusting people. ChubbyChecker posted:do you think that slavery is good or that it is bad? You have your answer. If you sign up to a respectable forum for true citizens, like RPGCodex, or post a suitably inspiring thread on 4Chan, I might further discuss the details of how various types of people may be organised and employed. Tulip posted:Except that those "enemies" are actively praising the Spartans and advocating that Athens should be more like Sparta. The way you immediately focus in on helots and the agoge tells me you're thinking of the crypteia and certain Roman-era Boeotian lies and misattributions. I don't believe you have reviewed anything close to "all the sources". I don't remember the contemporary sources talking about the agoge and/or crypteia as involving exceptional cruelty to helots. Actually, the agoge was an internationally respected and honoured institution. Foreigners would send their kids there, and some students were even born to helot mothers. Using the contemporary sources you can certainly come up with a civil strife/contention angle between Spartans and helots. By the mid-late 5th to 4th century there were increasing numbers of Hellenes trying to stick the knife in Sparta's back, and that sometimes comes out in the record. By the Spartan revolutions of the 3rd-2nd century, people were beginning to say all sorts of wild things, good and bad. Then you reach the Roman Empire and start scraping the bottom of the barrel for scandalous and fanciful tales. Obviously the inferior sort, both today and back then, tend toward those latter accounts. Going through the agoge could have improved them; certainly it's a better option than whatever passes for public education in the United States. Grand Fromage posted:They did legit have a training advantage. But as you say, they were deeply conservative and refused to innovate so got rinsed regularly by other armies that were capable of creative thinking. I agree that Brasidas was great. He wasn't the only one, though, even if we restrict ourselves to the peloponnesian war. Gylippos and Lysander immediately come to mind, and I know where to find more, but even if you restrict me to the first half I would still put forward someone like Archidamos. He demonstrated innovation and forsight; even if you reject any speech attributed to him as a work of fiction, he still led the first double-walled siege (which Julius Caesar was presumably familiar with from Thucydides and copied at Allesia). Tulip posted:Absolutely, I can't even imagine why you wouldn't. Absolute agreement. Messenia is the indefeasible property of Lakedaimonia. No compromise.
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Jun 25, 2022 07:55
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But Shakyamuni was rolling around sometime around 550 BCE, and I believe the Greek/Buddhist encounter was contemporary with Alexander and co, soooo -- convergent evolution, or perhaps ideas getting started somewhere and reaching India.
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If anyone is genuinely interested in the the mid-late 5th and early 4th century Spartan citizenry, they should start by reading Xenophon's Constitution of the Lakedaemonians. It really isn't that long; it's a simple and pretty clear overview of how they were organised, their views on sex and raising up the next generation, women, etc. If you want particular accounts of them in the field or on long campaigns, you can find plenty of sources, but I think a really enjoyable one is contained in another of Xenophon's works, Agesilaus (skip to section 25 of book 1 if you're impatient, but the whole text is worth reading). There's just too much objectionable stuff to sort through here, so I'll let Xenophon speak, he was an actual 5th/4th century Athenian who knew the Spartans very well. Repeating cheap smears against the Spartans, while speaking from a position of total ignorance and envy, is ridiculous at best. I doubt even the helots would want to associate with you.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:24
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Parmenides posted:some students were even born to helot mothers. 
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Jun 25, 2022 08:26
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xenophon's constitution is a terrible primary source for disproving "smears" about how helots were treated because it barely mentions them at all lol. it's entirely unconcerned with anyone living in lacadaemon who isn't a spartiate he also ends (or nearly ends; it's the second-to-last chapter) with "well, this is how it's supposed to work anyways; obviously modern sparta isn't this idyllic"
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Jun 25, 2022 08:34
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cheetah7071 posted:xenophon's constitution is a terrible primary source for disproving "smears" about how helots were treated because it barely mentions them at all lol. it's entirely unconcerned with anyone living in lacadaemon who isn't a spartiate I literally said "the mid-late 5th and early 4th century Spartan citizenry". I'm contributing to the separate discussion of the spartan citizenry and their military expertise, which wasn't covered in my last post.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:38
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Xenophon does recount an instance in Hellenika where one of the Perioikoi leads a failed rebellion, and, when asked to explain his motivation, says that everyone among the helots, perioikoi, and even lesser spartiates would gladly eat the upper classes raw. Neither the people in the scene nor the narrator's voice seem to disagree with this assessment of the situation
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Jun 25, 2022 08:38
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cheetah7071 posted:Xenophon does recount an instance in Hellenika where one of the Perioikoi leads a failed rebellion, and, when asked to explain his motivation, says that everyone among the helots, perioikoi, and even lesser spartiates would gladly eat the upper classes raw. Neither the people in the scene nor the narrator's voice seem to disagree with this assessment of the situation You learnt about Cinadon from Kagan's lectures on youtube, didn't you? The comments are turned off, but go email him and tell him he's wrong. He says that Cinadon was a helot, you say that Cinadon was a perioikos, but you're both wrong. Cinadon was a Hypomeiones. Pull the source. EDIT: okay you can still talk to me, I take that sentence back. I will just say that not only is Cinadon NOT a helot or perioikos, not only was it NOT a rebellion (it was a conspiracy that was discovered), and not only did he NOT provide that as his MOTIVATION, but Cinadon's death and the death of his co-conspirators quelled any mention of rebellion for a good while. Also, this is under Agesilaus, it's the 4th century and Sparta has plenty of problems piled up on its plate, the Hellenic world has gone to hell and back, etc. I could type more but basically no way does the Cinadon Conspiracy prove that Spartans were especially and unnecessarily cruel to helots for hundreds of years. Parmenides fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 08:40
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Parmenides, my dude, if you'd been born into a Spartiate family they would've thrown you into the trash pile they consigned all unhealthy babies.
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Jun 25, 2022 08:55
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I learned about cinadon by reading hellenika; which only identifies him as "not a homioi". I see a number of secondary sources claiming he's a hypomeion but can't find a primary source citation for that, but it seems reasonable enough. It was just an example of an early source that's generally pro-Spartan not blinking an eye at the idea that Spartiates were unusually hated by their lower classes; obviously no single passage is proof of anything
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Jun 25, 2022 09:01
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Parmenides, my dude, if you'd been born into a Spartiate family they would've thrown you into the trash pile they consigned all unhealthy babies. lol
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Jun 25, 2022 09:01
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Parmenides, my dude, if you'd been born into a Spartiate family they would've thrown you into the trash pile they consigned all unhealthy babies. You are funny, but be serious. When I walk the Elysian fields, Spartans will eagerly flock to my side. Countless thinkers from across ancient Eurasia will seek to engage me in pure philosophical discourse. My works are not written to win applause on some benighted forum, but as a possession for all time. Being is omnipresent and without opposition or alternative; what is, is, eternally and necessarily inviolate. Therefore ancient people are just as real as you and me, wherever they may be located. I will ensure that the ancients who took the time to speak to us will be heard, and their wishes given weight. Parmenides fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 09:06
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cheetah7071 posted:I learned about cinadon by reading hellenika; which only identifies him as "not a homioi". I see a number of secondary sources claiming he's a hypomeion but can't find a primary source citation for that, but it seems reasonable enough. It was just an example of an early source that's generally pro-Spartan not blinking an eye at the idea that Spartiates were unusually hated by their lower classes; obviously no single passage is proof of anything Okay, let's put aside the word hypomeiones (which does appear in the section but does not clearly attach to Cinadon). Consider the tale itself. Xenophon says he's a known entity but not part of the homoioi, he commands men and performs military/policing missions for the Ephorate, he says he's in the army and has access to the weapons (distinct from the masses), etc. At that point, we know we're talking about a Spartan, but some sort of lower sub-class. He's going to be a hypomeiones, mothakes, trophimoi, tresantes, or maybe neodamodeis. There's no way this guy is a helot or perioikos. As an aside, when recruiting Cinadon says his co-conspirators are few, but whatever. In terms of his motivations, both Xenophon (who quotes him, and knew sources who would have heard those very words) and Aristotle say that he was furious because he was barred from obtaining his full share of honour. He was a sub-Spartan, he had the same education as full citizens and could be just as motivated and meritorious, but forever cut off from his due. This was a tragedy internal to the Spartan classes. I think the Cinadon Conspiracy is a really interesting subject and everyone should learn about it, I'm happy whenever anyone mentions it and he's a revolutionary I can sympathise with; maybe he should have been born 150~ years later, he could have joined the pike phalanx next to Cleomenes III as a full Spartan. At any rate, the internal affairs of gentlemen have nothing to do with helots or perioikoi (unless they are the promising sort who are to be elevated). Parmenides fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 09:44
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Parmenides posted:You are funny, but be serious. When I walk the Elysian fields, Spartans will eagerly flock to my side. Countless thinkers from across ancient Eurasia will seek to engage me in pure philosophical discourse. My works are not written to win applause on some benighted forum, but as a possession for all time. Being is omnipresent and without opposition or alternative; what is, is, eternally and necessarily inviolate. Therefore ancient people are just as real as you and me, wherever they may be located. I will ensure that the ancients who took the time to speak to us will be heard, and their wishes given weight.
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Jun 25, 2022 09:47
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Nessus posted:If you left aside philosopher/intellectual, what social role do you believe you would have in the ancient world? We'll even be generous - let's assume you get one that suits your talent and training, because statistically the answer would be "peasant" by a decisive majority until quite recently. That's a very open-ended question. I could take up many roles, depending on the particular period, location, and my assumed family background. I spent most of my career as a criminal prosecutor, so obviously I am an aristocrat of some sort. Yet you cut me off from philosophical/intellectual pursuits for some reason. There's just too many answers that could be given; maybe I will be a foreign logographer in Athens, or am I cut off from that on grounds of intellectualism? Actually, the question is just too broad, yet has some unreasonable restrictions; I can't answer in any meaningful and specific way. Parmenides fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 09:58
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Parmenides posted:You have your answer. If you sign up to a respectable forum for true citizens, like RPGCodex, or post a suitably inspiring thread on 4Chan, I might further discuss the details of how various types of people may be organised and employed. i'm not going to make any posts on a nazi forum stop being a coward and just answer the question: do you think that slavery is good?
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Jun 25, 2022 10:02
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Parmenides posted:That's a very open-ended question. I could take up many roles, depending on the particular period, location, and my assumed family background. I spent most of my career as a criminal prosecutor, so obviously I am an aristocrat of some sort. Yet you cut me off from philosophical/intellectual pursuits, so I don't know what to tell you. What if you couldn't be an aristocrat of any kind? (Personally, I think I'd be a tolerably good artisan in most societies, given the opportunity. Beyond that it would be up to fortune and karma, just like real life.) e: Sure, let's bring it in a little. A role which is not entirely defined by "I do things which will be Great Works of History" or "I command the work of others." To use Roman analogies you might be a landholder with several estates you manage, but not Crassus or an emperor. I would say a noble role or an educated role is fair if that role is not entirely 'the commander of society.' Nessus fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 10:05
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Lmao shilling RPGcodex may be even more embarrassing than defending the crimes of uncultured slaver hillbillies because of their "piety" Anyway I must congratulate Parmenides on his ability to talk at impossible length around ideas, without ever actually coming close to expressing an idea. It's like his posts take up all the space around an idea / concept and therefore by forming its negative image they appear to actually be about something, when I'm reality it's just endless drivel without anything of substance. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 10:08
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Nessus posted:It removes the most personally flattering option from consideration, compelling some actual thought. Sure, there's plenty of roles I could play. If you want something in line with my career, I'm doing something in the political/legal system and engaging in some philosophical pursuits. I said I could be a logographer in Athens, but there are plenty of possibilities. You talk about being a landholder; I do own/manage some properties, so sure I could be a landed gentleman. Maybe Xenophon rides up to my estate and we write the Oikonomikos together; I have owned horses and know how to ride, so we have shared interests. I went to school and then uni, so maybe the Hellenistic equivalent is to have my family pay for tutors, and then in my late teens I go travel to an established school and study; sky's the limit at that point. Or maybe we take away all assets and I am a wayward orphan, but the superior quality of my soul ensures I am valued and have a measure of happiness. There are endless number of jobs for a capable person to perform, we can all make friends, perform some valued task, and fit in, although conflict or some other misfortune may bring the story to an early end. Maybe I'm a royal chef; right now I have a wife and kids, I do a fair bit of the cooking. I did a nice roast today; 4 pounds of beef with potatoes and carrots. Maybe I bring potatoes to antiquity and am worshipped as a god. Parmenides fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 10:22
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The only thing the "quality of your soul" is going to assure is that you are going to be shat upon by a passing donkey, let me assure you of that.
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Jun 25, 2022 10:27
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I hope you are man with those ambitions .
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Jun 25, 2022 11:50
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hey you know how fantasising about owning slaves would get you banned literally anywhere else on this website, well
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Jun 25, 2022 15:36
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is there a civil war thread, i want to go talk about how my management skills would make me a well suited overseer, maybe even my detective work could provide me a role on one of the property patrols!
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Jun 25, 2022 15:38
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coyly going oh if only you'll follow me to 4chan i'll regale you of my opinions of phrenology suffice to say under the oppressive moderation of somethingawful.com i can't exercise my free speech here
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Jun 25, 2022 15:43
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Surely I would be part of the small ruling class in my favorite historical era because I'm a clever boy I would never be part of the unswashed hoi polloi like almost every person ever to exist because I'm just better than that.
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Jun 25, 2022 15:47
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Grevling posted:The superior helmet is the Macedonian phalangite's flat cap from that fresco that looks just like those hats many Afghans wear today. The father of one my of ex girlfriends gave me one he got from his travels. They are pretty dope.
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Jun 25, 2022 16:16
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CoolCab posted:is there a civil war thread, i want to go talk about how my management skills would make me a well suited overseer, maybe even my detective work could provide me a role on one of the property patrols! Maybe the Cato Institute forums?
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Jun 25, 2022 16:43
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CoolCab posted:hey you know how fantasising about owning slaves would get you banned literally anywhere else on this website, well lets hope that it will get them banned here too
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Jun 25, 2022 16:44
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