|
Rigel posted:I would argue that most of those "no effect" people are people like me that overthink this and go "well I was already 100% for sure going to vote, so no effect". The GOP numbers on this question and the fact that Dems are historically unreliable voters is consistent with this. Considering that this is a mid-term election and Trump is not in charge to scare the brunch crowd into action, no effect is more likely wasn't going to vote, and still won't bother.
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 09:48 |
|
|
TyrantWD posted:Considering that this is a mid-term election and Trump is not in charge to scare the brunch crowd into action, no effect is more likely wasn't going to vote, and still won't bother. Again, given the GOP numbers, this interpretation seems very unlikely. I think a lot of dead-certain voters would respond no effect. Hell, I would have.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:20
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Again, given the GOP numbers, this interpretation seems very unlikely. I think a lot of dead-certain voters would respond no effect. Hell, I would have. Mid-term elections see on average about 43% turnout. Someone responding no-effect in a mid-term election is more likely to not vote than already be locked in as a voter.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
TyrantWD posted:Mid-term elections see on average about 43% turnout. Someone responding no-effect in a mid-term election is more likely to not vote than already be locked in as a voter. Does the 77% figure from republicans who say it had no effect also indicate that they will have low turnout? Republicans have started lying on their answers to polls for the last few cycles, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:26
|
|
|
TyrantWD posted:There is literally nothing they can do when Manchin is one of their 50 senators. as leadership has made abundantly clear in the case of Cuellar, they will go to great lengths to make sure Manchin is not replaced by someone who gets rid of their excuse for inaction. the national democratic party does not care about abortion rights. this is the cold, plain truth of the matter. all the talk about how Republicans just use abortion as an issue to fundraise off of was pure projection from people who considered those threats a useful cudgel to discipline their voter base with and absolutely nothing else. the Republican Party is a political party, with goals it seeks to accomplish. the Democratic Party has nothing beyond 'don't let anyone to our left replace us.' the fate of HR1 tells you everything you need to know about what they feel about being replaced by the right.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/joeyneverjoe/status/1540853685277691904 This is a great example of why people are disillusioned with Dems. They have been tripping over themselves to fund the fascist goons more and more. I think I can say at this point that I will not vote in 2022. It's not the lesser of two evils, because electoralism in this sham democracy sucks out space from other mass political alternatives. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:https://twitter.com/joeyneverjoe/status/1540853685277691904 You were never going to vote in the first place, Cat Botherer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:43
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:You were never going to vote in the first place, Cat Botherer.  Not sure why you felt compelled to say this; is it based on his stating so prior to now that he wasn't going to vote?eta: As I've said before, I do think there is utility in voting in some state & local elections, especially when there are lefty challengers like Cisneros to fossils like Cuellar, but I agree that "slightly less evil than my GE opponent" is wearing thin to even the most ardent voters. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jun 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:44
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:You were never going to vote in the first place, Cat Botherer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:46
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:
As of Jan 11th 2022, Cat Botherer already stated they had no intentions of voting in another American Election. cat botherer posted:I held my nose and voted in 2020, and I was probably wasn't going to in 2022, but now that's a definite. I have a tendency to break down and vote at the last second because of my conditioning, but I think that's over with. If you are in a Blue state, vote. If you are in a red state, I get it. But if you sincerely believe its worthless, go waste your vote and ensure your state at least remains blue. At least keep the suffering down where you are as much as possible. Its a couple hours of your life wasted, just do it. Willa Rogers posted:eta: As I've said before, I do think there is utility in voting in some state & local elections, especially when there are lefty challengers like Cisneros to fossils like Cuellar, but I agree that "slightly less evil than my GE opponent" is wearing thin to even the most ardent voters. Then hold your nose and do it, frankly I'm sick and tired of the "I'm not gonna vote in another election". Cool. Good. That's basically what the GOP wants. So you should probably do the opposite even if they keep destroying everything to make you hopeless. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jun 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:46
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:As of Jan 11th 2022, Cat Botherer already stated they had no intentions of voting in another American Election. e: The issue is that every vote is a vote for the system. It's what the GOP wants and what the Dems want. Revolutionary movements are all anti-electoral for a reason. Besides, democracy is essentially toast at this point. The GOP has won this system, and the Dems are a mildly unwilling but controlled opposition party. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jun 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:51
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:I will continue to vote in local races for school boards etc, but I can't really justify supporting national dems. I'm sure the minority party thanks you. And not to give the Dems any credit, they deserve none, but given that electoralism will remain how the GOP continues to build power until they strip away our right to vote: I don't see you have any alternative than supporting the lovely party. And frankly, given that the GOP is already stripping and destroying stuff like School Boards, you are furthering their goals by doing so. cat botherer posted:e: The issue is that every vote is a vote for the system. It's what the GOP wants and what the Dems want. Revolutionary movements are all anti-electoral for a reason. You can literally do both. Nobody in a revolution is going to check and see if you voted or not and kick you out for voting. You can acknowledge the system is hopeless and still vote with the expectation that it won't do anything at worst, or might do something at best.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:53
|
|
|
A few women on my social media circle posted about the overturning of Roe V Wade. But generally speaking it's been relatively quiet. I don't think most people really care about politics these days, or decisions from politics. It's sad, but I feel true. Those that are concerned and speaking up seem blindsided as if they haven't been paying attention the last 5 years. Some of the women were Trump supporters and appear to lack any ability to draw a connection between the two. I wonder if there is anything that will wake people up in this country and say woah what the gently caress. We as a nation are going in the wrong direction. Snowden's revelations of govt/corp spying barely moved the needle. Trump engaged and motivated a minority of the population, and 1/3 it barely mattered to. Roe v Wade doesn't really seem to be as big of a deal to most Americans as I envisioned. I'm sure they'll be surprised when a fetus personhood bill is put before the SC in a year or two and all abortion becomes illegal. Most people generally don't understand a solid 30% of the country absolutely wants to dominate the other 70% in any way they can at best. And a subset of that would be fine killing any people that oppose their installation of fascism. It feels very hopeless tbh. It's damned near impossible to leave this country for any other country that's worth a damned. I don't have $500k to move to Europe to buy property there. So I guess I'm hosed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:53
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:I will continue to vote in local races for school boards etc, but I can't really justify supporting national dems. Yeah, this is how I feel pretty much. It has less to do with "holding my nose" than voting when it matters, or as I said, "utility." CommieGIR posted:Then hold your nose and do it, frankly I'm sick and tired of the "I'm not gonna vote in another election". Cool. Good. That's basically what the GOP wants. So you should probably do the opposite even if they keep destroying everything to make you hopeless. Uh, maybe take a step back for a moment & consider that you're posting in (and modding) a forum called Debate & Discussion when you lay down arguments like this one, because it's as stale to some of us as "I'm never ever voting again" is to you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:57
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'm sure the minority party thanks you. And not to give the Dems any credit, they deserve none, but given that electoralism will remain how the GOP continues to build power until they strip away our right to vote: I don't see you have any alternative than supporting the lovely party.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:58
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:You were never going to vote in the first place, Cat Botherer. Is voting a perquisite to having an opinion on the LAPD beating on teenage girls, and how Democratic inaction (and hell let's be honest, facillitation) exacerbates the issue, now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 15:59
|
|
|
Cow Bell posted:Is voting a perquisite to having an opinion on the LAPD beating on teenage girls, and how Democratic inaction (and hell let's be honest, facillitation) exacerbates the issue, now? Nope, but frankly its a tiring trope. If you are not going to vote, why tell anyone. Especially when you already stated, months prior to a major decision, that you did not intend to vote anymore? Willa Rogers posted:Uh, maybe take a step back for a moment & consider that you're posting in (and modding) a forum called Debate & Discussion when you lay down arguments like this one, because it's as stale to some of us as "I'm never ever voting again" is to you. Willa, I am debating and discussing. I think the "I'm not going to vote anymore" poo poo IS stale. I didn't probe him for it. I'm discussing it. Maybe back off the backseat moding?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:00
|
|
|
^^^ I was told that backseat modding isn't a rules violation, but sure, I'll back off from challenging you from hereon.Zotix posted:A few women on my social media circle posted about the overturning of Roe V Wade. But generally speaking it's been relatively quiet. I don't think most people really care about politics these days, or decisions from politics. It's sad, but I feel true. Those that are concerned and speaking up seem blindsided as if they haven't been paying attention the last 5 years. It's been 30 years--almost to the day!--since Planned Parenthood vs. Casey was handed down, opening the door to state restrictions that led us to where we are today. 30 years in which the right continued to seize that opening with no meaningful opposition from elected Democrats, who instead happily signed on to the "fetal protection" laws in 38 states that are now being used to criminalize miscarriages, and came up with tropes like "safe, legal & rare."
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:01
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:You can literally do both. Nobody in a revolution is going to check and see if you voted or not and kick you out for voting. You can acknowledge the system is hopeless and still vote with the expectation that it won't do anything at worst, or might do something at best. Yeah, it seems like a lot of people can’t let go of the belief that voting is politically meaningful, such that refusing to vote is some kind of big deal that requires commitment and deliberation and becomes a part of you—the reverse image of the liberal who sees elections as the only kind of political action that can ever be taken. Voting is basically meaningless and takes 10 minutes. It doesn’t matter at all what you do. One vote never made a difference. Leave the election obsession behind and decide what meaningful political acts you’re going to undertake. Fixating on voting and democrats is mind poison that distracts you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:The voters! That's the whole goddam point of electoral democracy! You're a complete moron and a perfect example of why liberals are going to get us killed. The responsibility of winning elections falls on the people who have made it their profession, the people who earn millions of dollars a year going around the country and saying "I will defeat the opposition with this plan" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
Have Some Flowers! posted:Sure hold them them to higher standards, I think it's fair for the reasons you mentioned. But if you hold these values, you should still want to act effectively to see them realized too. Now, please imagine a scenario where an even more conservative Democrat comes along who is anti-choice, pro-gun, and wants to end public education. Their republican opponent is all of those and he wants to end birthright citizenship. You still going to condone the positions of the Democrat? If the Democrat says that they will kill 1,000,000 people and the Republican says that they will kill 1,000,001 people, will you still vote for the Democrat? Where do you draw the line? When will you stop voting for evil democrats? Have Some Flowers! posted:As to what effect primarying Dems has to push them left? Cuellar used to vote with 68% alignment with Trump before he was primaried. Once Cisneros began primarying him, that changed to 11% and then 0%. That's an insane turnaround and we should primary every dem like that. Come on, Cisneros started primarying Cuellar back in August of 2021. Trump was well out of office. And guess what, we still don't see him tacking to the left. He's still anti-choice and pro-gun. And what about Pelosi and Clyburn campaigning for him AFTER the Alito leak?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, it seems like a lot of people can’t let go of the belief that voting is politically meaningful, such that refusing to vote is some kind of big deal that requires commitment and deliberation and becomes a part of you—the reverse image of the liberal who sees elections as the only kind of political action that can ever be taken. I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:16
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society? I assume you're referring to voting in a blue state without voter suppression tactics being deployed against you and of course being financially stable enough to take the time and get transportation to a polling place, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:17
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:It's not the issue of taking 10 minutes - I already spend a lot more than that doing other social work. It's that it can become counterproductive, in that it is support for an unjust system. Low voter turnout largely happens because people check out when they see nobody helping them. However, there are other reasons for not doing so. We aren't at a point where revolution could happen, but if fixing this system is impossible, I'd rather avoid perpetuating it. We have climate change and ecological collapse staring down at us, so I'd like to get a system in that can address these problems rather than have another 20 years of this, at which point the system collapses anyway and there is little hope anywhere. Well, you said you are planning for a revolution, which many agree may be necessary to address these things: How does going to vote hinder your ability to prepare for it? Is that time taken to vote cutting into your local revolutionary council meeting or something? Do they check for a voters card? speng31b posted:I assume you're referring to voting in a blue state without voter suppression tactics being deployed against you and of course being financially stable enough to take the time and get transportation to a polling place, etc. Yes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:17
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society? the original line is 'where voting helps, vote; where voting does not help, don't bother.' there are places and times it does. right here, right now, for the democratic party, on a national level, is not one of them. you do not charge up your vote with additional power by voting for people who have no intention of helping you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:18
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society? This is like saying "if you can make up your bed in the morning, how do you plan to shower?" Is voting a prerequisite for revolution? I don't see how not wanting to vote means that you won't be able to put in the effort into a revolution? Do you think Malcolm X wouldn't put in the effort for a revolution since he was willing to withhold his vote?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:I'd argue you also did the same thing and are unwilling to acknowledge that its fairly effortless to vote AND also prepare for a revolution. If you are unwilling to take 10 minutes to go do something that simple, how exactly do you plan to put the effort into a major reovlution? Or even plan for a post-revolutionary society? I didn’t say don’t vote. I just think it’s silly to put all or most of your attention on the question of whether or not you’re going to vote, as if casting or withholding a vote has any significance at all. It’s fine if you disagree and vote, but it’s self-defeating to displace all that energy that liberals put into elections onto refusing to participate in the ritual you don’t believe in. It wouldn’t make any difference either way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:20
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:This is like saying "if you can make up your bed in the morning, how do you plan to shower?" Is voting a prerequisite for revolution? I don't see how not wanting to vote means that you won't be able to put in the effort into a revolution? If voting is depressing, revolution is not going to be more exciting. Even more so if the revolution fails... theCalamity posted:This is like saying "if you can make up your bed in the morning, how do you plan to shower?" Is voting a prerequisite for revolution? I don't see how not wanting to vote means that you won't be able to put in the effort into a revolution? Yeah its not like any of those things: Making a bed and showering does not determine if you are functional human. Voting and Revolution are not counter to one another, I don't see how its comparable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:20
|
|
|
"Hello yes, I want to topple, violently, the current structures of power here, but first, let me continue to support those structures, continue to use them as a release valve for frustration, and ensure that those in power continue to benefit from those structures. I'm a very big time and serious revolutionary"
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
The only actually potentially succesful party/electoral strategy left for the Left is to do what the Tea Party did for the GOP, and radicalize enough of the Democratic base. There is nothing unique about democratic voters that prevents them from doing this. It does require more unified messaging to have the same effect as talk radio/FOX/Facebook, and founding of some sort of communal events/institutions/infrastructure to have the same effect as churches/other local gathering places. Also it requires playing on fear and hatred of an enemy, in this case conservative Americans, which by this point should be given but...did anyone on the left mention the tens millions of worthless wastes of human existence who vote for GOP or are we still pretending that the people who just overturned Roe vs. Wade manifested there out of the aether?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:23
|
|
|
Ciprian Maricon posted:"Hello yes, I want to topple, violently, the current structures of power here, but first, let me continue to support those structures, continue to use them as a release valve for frustration, and ensure that those in power continue to benefit from those structures. I'm a very big time and serious revolutionary" "Sir/Ma'am before you come into the revolutionary meeting, we have to check to make sure you are not a current or past voter or you cannot march with us."
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:24
|
|
|
Did something happen to the electoralism thread? Haven't seen a new perspective from either side, but maybe we're just a few posts away from some sort of consensus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:24
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:If voting is depressing, revolution is not going to be more exciting. Even more so if the revolution fails... If voting and revolution are not counter to one another, why do you think not willing to vote means that you probably won't participate in a revolution?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:26
|
|
|
To be clear, I am not a current revolutionary, and I don’t think revolution/balkanization is possible yet. But things are changing faster than I thought possible 2 years ago. We are in the decaying garbage period of poo poo common to all late empires. You never pull out of the decline at this stage. It will fall. I don’t know what will happen, but the current system is disastrous to the future of advanced civilization and I don’t want to prolong it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:27
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:"Sir/Ma'am before you come into the revolutionary meeting, we have to check to make sure you are not a current or past voter or you cannot march with us." Yeah voting isn't relevant to someone serious about a revolution. No one is going to check to see if you voted, but the flip side is if you're serious about a revolution you wouldn't vote and probably shouldn't. The idea that committed serious revolutionaries have a duty to go into the voting booth is dumb as hell.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:27
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:If voting and revolution are not counter to one another, why do you think not willing to vote means that you probably won't participate in a revolution? No, what I asked is why one would prevent the other. Voting does not cut into major revolution time. It doesn't stop you from preparing for one. Why can you not to both to suppress what harm you can and buy time for the revolution to build? Ciprian Maricon posted:Yeah voting isn't relevant to someone serious about a revolution. No one is going to check to see if you voted, but the flip side is if you're serious about a revolution you wouldn't vote and probably shouldn't. I'd like you to explain how being serious about a revolution means you wouldn't vote. That's a broad assumption. If the level of effort for checking boxes in a voting both is minimal, even if you assume it changes little, a revolution is a massive ask that requires immense amounts of effort and commitment. You can do both. You have half the people saying they will only vote in local elections, but they do so knowing that state and Federal are likely failing to protect those as well. Those same local voters are likely your future revolutionaries. Are you saying they are less likely to be revolutionaries because of that local voting? Revolution requires vastly more effort than voting. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:27
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:If voting and revolution are not counter to one another, why do you think not willing to vote means that you probably won't participate in a revolution?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:29
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:No, what I asked is why one would prevent the other. Voting does not cut into major revolution time. It doesn't stop you from preparing for one. Why can you not to both to suppress what harm you can and buy time for the revolution to build? Perhaps there are no good candidates for them to vote for? Perhaps they feel that both sides share the same ideological goals with slight differences? There's a myriad of reasons for someone to not vote in an election which doesn't preclude them from participating in a revolution. Why do you feel that they need to vote?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 09:48 |
|
|
Ravenfood posted:Of the people who dont vote, I feel like the vast majority do not from a combination of apathy and institutional roadblocks and a very small percentage of them do not from some kind of principled desire to avoid supporting a system they feel is unjust. The latter group may not vote and participate in a revolution. I feel, without data, that a person who is too apathetic to vote or too burdened by institutional roadblocks is unlikely to join a revolution, especially at the outset. Some might, but it feels like a very small number. At times like this, the priors of our American experience and upbringing become inaccurate, and its more important to look at history for examples.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2022 16:33
|
|