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How come all the Sparta defenders are so verbose when the Spartans had a reputation for loving brevity and witticisms and have a big dialogue in Thucydides where they tell some guys "You talked for so long I forgot what your original point was, just tell us what you want, dweeb"
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Jun 26, 2022 00:46
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Parmenides posted:When you say, "with this sort of perspective", are you asking how a helot would behave if it had such an opinion/perspective? Of course you may feel you are a more exalted form of being, in which case I would ask, on what grounds? e: as for your Buddhism question, rebirth is enigmatic but can broadly be considered to be informed by the consequences of your actions in previous lives in various realms (not merely the immediately preceding one) as well as various other factors, such as the environment of where you are being reborn, the physical inheritance from your parents and so forth, and the factors of your development in the immediate sense (education, home life, etc.) In a certain sense, one may be "reborn" every morning, or indeed, every moment. Or perhaps, every 
Nessus fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 01:06
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Why do reactionary assholes always think their ideas on the inferiority of other people are new? Yeah dude I've heard it before, you think some people are subhuman and desire to own them. I've heard it before, it's not novel.
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Jun 26, 2022 01:11
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Carillon posted:Why do reactionary assholes always think their ideas on the inferiority of other people are new? Yeah dude I've heard it before, you think some people are subhuman and desire to own them. I've heard it before, it's not novel.
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Jun 26, 2022 01:13
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I find slavery about as acceptable as murder for profit. Though I guess I’d be ok with murdering slave owners.
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Jun 26, 2022 01:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Vercengetorix was the good guy though 
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Jun 26, 2022 01:29
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Vercengetorix was the good guy though Eh, he had big ideas but he choked in the end
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Jun 26, 2022 01:31
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Nessus posted:"Human biodiversity? You know, there probably would be some genetic differences here and there, and that could in fact be a potential factor in some of the different outcomes for some diseases and cancer rates. That really would - Oh, it's just about how black people have lower IQs and shouldn't have welfare. Weird how they all seem to end up there." One of my favorite bits in 1493 is that Africans were genetically resistant to malaria, which is clearly "genetic superiority," and therefore were used as slaves because they didn't die as much as Irish or Scottish folk.
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Jun 26, 2022 01:58
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Parmenides, do you understand (read, write and speak) Classical Greek? If so, would they be able to understand you? I can only imagine that what we know about Classical Greek may differ to what an ancient Greek would have spoke (what with variations based on region and tribe), so perhaps to them you would sound like a barbarian. I suppose you could play the mystic, but if they don't understand you, you'd just be another person raving at nothing on the street. You have grandiose ideas of what role you would play in ancient society, but if you do not know what you are doing, you wouldn't get anywhere.
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Jun 26, 2022 03:17
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Jun 26, 2022 03:29
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That chart has a few things wrong. Nevada for instance tends to speak a combination of Katakana and Kanji
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Jun 26, 2022 03:32
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i really can't decide whether HTML5 or lojban is the best joke on that map
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Jun 26, 2022 05:39
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ǃXóõ is a good one too. Although I guess the "funny" part is that Khoisan languages are largely on the edge of going extinct, so deeply unlikely to be spoken in any numbers in the US. Also  .
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Jun 26, 2022 06:20
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It’s Minnesota English
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Jun 26, 2022 07:33
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:When does Keldoclock return at keld o'clock, obviously
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Jun 26, 2022 07:35
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Silver2195 posted:Remember what I said about archaeological evidence casting doubt on Spartan child-killing? Archaeological evidence tends to confirm Carthaganian child-killing. I remember some fun conspiracy theories connecting that all the way to Epstein. Also I'm torn between Whale and Silence, and disappointed there's no Klingon.
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Jun 26, 2022 11:31
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A tennessean buys a refrigerator. I ask them why they need that poo poo when it's -40 outside. They respond "inside the fridge it's only -4, I can warm up!" Chukchis! Tennesseans!
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Jun 26, 2022 11:54
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the yeti posted:Parmenides nuts Lead out in cuffs posted:Although I guess the "funny" part is that Khoisan languages are largely on the edge of going extinct, so deeply unlikely to be spoken in any numbers in the US. Also
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Jun 26, 2022 13:39
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Silver2195 posted:Remember what I said about archaeological evidence casting doubt on Spartan child-killing? Archaeological evidence tends to confirm Carthaganian child-killing. I thought the latest research suggested that the child remains were of children who died of natural causes, not due to inflicted sounds, and that the religious rituals alleged to be sacrifices were more likely to prepare the dead or dying children for burial. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 14:30
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steinrokkan posted:I thought the latest research suggested that the child remains were of children who died of natural causes, not due to inflicted sounds, and that the religious rituals alleged to be sacrifices were more likely to prepare the dead or dying children for burial. I was aware that people have made arguments along those lines, but was under the impression that most of those people were funded by the Tunisian government, lol.
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Jun 26, 2022 16:11
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Carillon posted:Why do reactionary assholes always think their ideas on the inferiority of other people are new? Yeah dude I've heard it before, you think some people are subhuman and desire to own them. I've heard it before, it's not novel. Noting, of course, that the ancient world did not think specific groups of people were subhuman. Anyone could be enslaved. Get on the wrong side of politics and you're the one getting whipped whatever your skin colour.
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Jun 26, 2022 16:13
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feedmegin posted:Noting, of course, that the ancient world did not think specific groups of people were subhuman. That's a truth with some qualifiers. It's true that they didn't rank people by the color of their skin but they still thought that specific groups were subhuman. Germanic tribes for example was considered, as a whole, primitive drunks and the romans hated the gauls so much that Caesar could commit what in our days would be considered genocide against them and be considered a great hero for it.
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Jun 26, 2022 16:40
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steinrokkan posted:I thought the latest research suggested that the child remains were of children who died of natural causes, not due to inflicted sounds, and that the religious rituals alleged to be sacrifices were more likely to prepare the dead or dying children for burial. Other way. Latest research suggests the children were very deliberately killed.
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Jun 26, 2022 17:07
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Antique writers didn’t have a developed, moralized, color-racial theory in the way that early modern and modern writers do, but they absolutely considered various groups of people to be subhuman—most significantly, of course, the lower classes and anyone from a sufficiently foreign social milieu—and being an unusual color could serve as a marker of that. Here’s a fun little story about an Aethiops monk, one of the desert fathers in Egypt:quote:It is said of Father Moses that, when he was invested with the long white priest’s robe upon his ordination as a member of the clergy, the Archbishop said to him, ‘See, Father Moses, you have become completely white.’ The old man replied, ‘Outwardly, Lord and Father. But am I also white inwardly?’ Wishing to test him, the Archbishop said to the other priests, ‘Whenever Father Moses comes into the sanctuary, drive him out and follow him in order to observe his reaction.’ The old man came in and they abused him and drove him out, saying, ‘Get out, Blackface!’ As he was going out he said to himself, ‘They have treated you properly, you sooty-skinned one, you black one! Since you are not human, why should you have entered the company of men?’ The story is of course hagiographical, supposed to illustrate Moses’ virtuous suffering and his conversion from a former slave and robber. But the story, particularly his internal monologue, rests on an evident association between aesthetic and moral blackness of the same sort which is at the root of early-modern and modern color racism, and it paints an ugly picture of the kind of experience off-color people could expect to get in antiquity.
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Jun 26, 2022 17:28
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That said, the boundaries were definitely drawn differently, given that this man could lead armies and be proclaimed emperor
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Jun 26, 2022 17:37
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Yep. Racism as we think of it didn't exist but people were still assholes and had plenty of ways to make in and outgroups. That just, unfortunately, seems to be a consistent part of human nature across the world and history.
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Jun 26, 2022 17:48
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cheetah7071 posted:That said, the boundaries were definitely drawn differently, given that this man could lead armies and be proclaimed emperor Romans did not consider Septimus Severus to be “black” because “black” for them didn’t describe some clear and significant racial category of everyone from an African people or darker than [insert extremely racist standard here]. It meant a person whose skin was so dark it looked black. Roman appellation for people of this somatic type was “aethiops” from Greek “burned face”, which is the level of analysis we’re working on here. Severus’ portrait there doesn’t represent him this way, nor is it intended to show him as an Aethiops (scroll down here for a few examples of how Roman artists might represent people of this type). Severus was the son of a Punic man and Italian noblewoman, which was far more notable to his contemporaries than his skin color. Note the lack of mention: Historia Augusta posted:In person he was large and handsome. His beard was long; his hair was grey and curly, his face was such as to inspire respect. His voice was clear, but retained an African accent even to his old age.
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Jun 26, 2022 17:54
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Alhazred posted:That's a truth with some qualifiers. It's true that they didn't rank people by the color of their skin but they still thought that specific groups were subhuman. Germanic tribes for example was considered, as a whole, primitive drunks and the romans hated the gauls so much that Caesar could commit what in our days would be considered genocide against them and be considered a great hero for it. That's the thing, though. As a German, you could learn Latin/Greek, stop wearing trousers, shave and become 'civilised' and that would work just fine. That's something that just doesn't apply to black people in the 19th century US, for example.
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Jun 26, 2022 18:03
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feedmegin posted:That's the thing, though. As a German, you could learn Latin/Greek, stop wearing trousers, shave and become 'civilised' and that would work just fine. That's something that just doesn't apply to black people in the 19th century US, for example. I doubt it was that simple. People quipped that the senators Caesar inducted from cisalpine gaul--who had been Roman subjects for a very long time by that point--were taking off their trousers and putting on togas at the city gates
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Jun 26, 2022 18:16
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feedmegin posted:That's the thing, though. As a German, you could learn Latin/Greek, stop wearing trousers, shave and become 'civilised' and that would work just fine. That's something that just doesn't apply to black people in the 19th century US, for example. That's, again, a truth with some qualifiers. Stilicho for example was a brilliant general who was completely loyal to the idiot emperor Honorius. Yet he couldn't be completely trusted because he was part barbarian.
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Jun 26, 2022 18:20
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Alhazred posted:That's, again, a truth with some qualifiers. Stilicho for example was a brilliant general who was completely loyal to the idiot emperor Honorius. Yet he couldn't be completely trusted because he was part barbarian. It also changed over time, Stilicho was well past when the Romans were (relatively) tolerant and accepting of new peoples. It wasn't easy to cross the line but it was certainly possible and lots and lots of people did. Just because there are exceptions doesn't change the fact that it was entirely possible to become Roman and the majority of the population were those people. A Black person in America can't just choose to become white.
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Jun 26, 2022 18:27
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late antiquity saw a serious rise in bigotry which was very unusual in the context of earlier roman attitudes. the only major figure i can think of that faced stilicho-like scorn for "barbarian origins" before that era is maximinus thrax - the historia augusta goes into great detail about what a huge, brutish, awful thracian he was - but that kind of strikes me as throwing every bit of scorn possible onto the guy who precipitated the Crisis, just one more excuse to think of him as one of the shittiest emperors ever by indulging in the greek stereotype of thracians.
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Jun 26, 2022 18:41
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Identities also layered, like a person would be both Roman and Egyptian with little obstacle. This shouldn't be that weird to us, I am American and white and male and east-coast and northerner and none of this is seen as contradictory unless you zoom out extremely far and get confused about why a northern white guy and a southern black woman have different notions about what America is and what problems it faces, or even just like east coast and west coast. I've definitely had my views miscast or dismissed on the basis of one or more of those identities, and that's just life. So like it just shouldn't be weird that a Roman Greek guy has different priorities than a Spanish Roman, and that both of them are fully Roman but still have non-overlapping prejudices.
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Jun 26, 2022 19:05
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cheetah7071 posted:I doubt it was that simple. People quipped that the senators Caesar inducted from cisalpine gaul--who had been Roman subjects for a very long time by that point--were taking off their trousers and putting on togas at the city gates Sure, but on the other hand. Antonius Pius came from a Gallic family and ended up becoming emperor, which suggests to me, at least, that a lot of that was just a matter of assimilation, more than racism.
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Jun 26, 2022 21:58
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How common were things like fairly long distance travel for non-upper class people in the Roman empire? It seems like it would be harder to have a system of prejudice which could be codified in law and, so to speak, folk tradition in the way we do in America (and similarly in other countries) if there is much less transmission of information from group to group. There also seem to be tons of regional prejudices, though I am curious if there was a tradition in Rome to consider some particular long-held but distinctly not "the original capital or its immediate environs" portion of the Roman Empire to be the seat of "Real Romans," sustaining virtue and culture that was lost in Rome itself.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:16
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The ancient world didn't have racism, but they did have bigotry. The idea of immutable "races" would have been alien but hating foreigners for being weird and different was very much a thing. Boundaries between ethnic groups were pretty permeable, though, and even in myth, people could assimilate and change. The mythic founder of Thebes, Cadmus, was a Phoenecian for example.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:22
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It was reasonably common. The military of course was a way a lot of people did a lot of travel (not just men but their families/camp followers too), lots and lots of long distance trade, and there was a robust tourist infrastructure in many areas. Depending on what you're considering long distance of course. We know the major arena circuits in Italy scheduled games so they wouldn't conflict with each other because lots of people would see gladiator matches in Rome, then head down to Pompeii to watch games there too, then off to somewhere else. And then there was plenty of internal migration which is being confirmed by things like analyzing tooth enamel. It was at all unusual for someone to be born in Spain, move to Africa as an adult, move again to Illyria or wherever. Most people didn't get around that much, but most people don't today either. Especially for premodern people Romans got around quite a bit.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:24
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One piece of evidence for relatively common travel in the ancient world are the various traditions of guest-friendship or guest rights, too. Those probably wouldn't have developed or been as emphasized if travel was rare.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:45
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvbm84iN7qk relevant video on the topic, pretty easy to extrapolate to Roman times
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Jun 26, 2022 22:51
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WoodrowSkillson posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvbm84iN7qk Oh yeah I like this guy. It is similar to Roman travel, the main difference would be it was easier in the empire given the better developed infrastructure and you weren't dealing with borders or anything. Plus the great geography, in a world where sea travel was approximately a billion times faster having a giant lake in the middle of your empire is incredibly useful. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 23:15
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