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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I know the social effects. The original question was whether having an ectopic pregnancy would put a pregnant woman in legal jeopardy now. No, the question was Cimber posted:Is a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy really at risk now because of Roe v. Wade, or is that some hysterical fearmongering. And the answer is absolutely yes. They can be charged or put through the system or denied treatment by people who don't understand the laws, even if the laws technically protect them
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Jun 28, 2022 01:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I know the social effects. The original question was whether having an ectopic pregnancy would put a pregnant woman in legal jeopardy now. regrettably, this is a lie. Cimber posted:Is a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy really at risk now because of Roe v. Wade, or is that some hysterical fearmongering. women who have ectopic pregnancies are at risk, depending on the state, because finding a surgeon willing to risk their local 'a miscarriage is prosecutable if the DA's feeling feisty" anti-abortion laws has suddenly become a requirement.
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Jun 28, 2022 01:44
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Alkydere posted:AOC would probably be better off as a senator. Especially because that would mean she bumped off another senior member of the NY political machine. The GOP doesn't hate female & youthful candidates; seven of the 10 youngest current u.s. senators are republicans, and they've successfully won lots of seats with conservative women (including two-fers like Flores in TX and Sears in VA). Dem leadership hates progressive ideas almost as much as the GOP, if you're talking stuff that threatens capital like single-payer healthcare and student-loan forgiveness. And even bodily autonomy isn't on the menu sometimes, like when you had Pelosi & Clyburn campaigning & fundraising for anti-choice Cuellar vs. pro-choice Cisneros. There's no way Schumer & Gillibrand wouldn't win reelection if AOC challenged either one and besides, she's shown she's not much of a political renegade when it comes to her job, outside of her more impassioned tweets.
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Jun 28, 2022 01:45
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:regrettably, this is a lie. Let alone the cops' blanket protection to arrest anyone they think is breaking the law, regardless of what the laws actually are, or whether the person is even breaking the imaginary law
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Jun 28, 2022 01:46
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Lemming posted:No, the question was People could also be incorrectly charged no matter what the law is. That is why it is an incorrect charge. The question was specifically whether women who have an ectopic pregnancy "at risk now because of Roe v. Wade." If they meant risk in a general and non-specific sense, then the answer is yes. If they meant did the ruling change anything regarding whether having an ectopic pregnancy is illegal or not, then the answer is no. I assume when they said "women who have an ectopic pregnancy" that they were referring to women in general and not abortion doctors who are also women and had an ectopic pregnancy.
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Jun 28, 2022 01:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:People could also be incorrectly charged no matter what the law is. That is why it is an incorrect charge. The question was specifically whether women who have an ectopic pregnancy "at risk now because of Roe v. Wade." If they meant risk in a general and non-specific sense, then the answer is yes. If they meant did the ruling change anything regarding whether having an ectopic pregnancy is illegal or not, then the answer is no. would you quantify what happens if you have an ectopic pregnancy and cannot find an abortion doctor willing to operate on you as 'a risk'
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Jun 28, 2022 01:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No. All the states with weird fetal protection laws require intent or neglect on the part of the mother. An ectopic pregnancy is out of her control. I agree that ectopic pregnancies won't result in prosecution but a whole lot of the "weird fetal protection laws" most certainly do not require intent or neglect on the part of the mother. lmao that I was probed for responding literally to the text in that post. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 01:52
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:People could also be incorrectly charged no matter what the law is. That is why it is an incorrect charge. The question was specifically whether women who have an ectopic pregnancy "at risk now because of Roe v. Wade." If they meant risk in a general and non-specific sense, then the answer is yes. If they meant did the ruling change anything regarding whether having an ectopic pregnancy is illegal or not, then the answer is no. There is the common bullshit refrain from the right that this is only going to affect women who are trying to terminate their pregnancies for funsies or whatever. This is obviously a flagrant lie, and part of that is specifically because this makes even inarguably, explicitly, absolutely for sure necessary life saving abortions more dangerous for all the outlined reasons. Yes, this change absolutely affects women having ectopic pregnancies and increases their personal risk, even if the technical reading of the explicit laws will generally be interpreted by someone in good faith not targeting life saving medical abortions. If the question was "does this affect whether a prosecutor will charge a woman having an ectopic pregnancy with a crime for having an abortion if they're interpreting the laws in good faith" then the answer would be "no," but it wasn't
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Jun 28, 2022 01:53
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In Ireland about a decade ago, a woman died while doctors dithered over whether saving her from an unviable pregnancy was legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar The backlash led to the country legalizing abortion. Ideally we can get (back) there without unnecessary deaths but there is precedent for the hard way
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Jun 28, 2022 01:56
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Willa Rogers posted:I agree that ectopic pregnancies won't result in prosecution but a whole lot of the "weird fetal protection laws" most certainly do not require intent or neglect on the part of the mother. Which of those states do not require intent or neglect for a mother to be charged with murder or feticide? Because I have never heard of one that exists and reading through that list shows that every single one either requires negligence, exempts the mother, or just ties it to the definition of murder (which, by definition, requires intent).
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Jun 28, 2022 01:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Which of those states do not require intent or neglect for a mother to be charged with murder or feticide? Because I have never heard of one that exists and reading through that list shows that every single one either requires negligence, exempts the mother, or just ties it to the definition of murder (which, by definition, requires intent). Wasn't Texas literally in the news recently for charging a woman who suffered a miscarriage with something like 3rd degree manslaughter?
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Jun 28, 2022 02:03
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Automata 10 Pack posted:yes, they had to get crushed by the federal government instead of the cops. Which is a better outcome than getting crushed by the cops. what? how??
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Jun 28, 2022 02:04
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A big flaming stink posted:Wasn't Texas literally in the news recently for charging a woman who suffered a miscarriage with something like 3rd degree manslaughter? The recent Texas case was a woman intentionally giving herself (and possibly someone else) an at-home "self-induced abortion" and not an unintentional miscarriage. Unless you are referring to something other than the Herrera case that I missed. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 02:06
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Willa Rogers posted:I agree that ectopic pregnancies won't result in prosecution but a whole lot of the "weird fetal protection laws" most certainly do not require intent or neglect on the part of the mother. That is all to say while I agree and there is evidence that ectopic pregnancies will be treated as their own thing, I really don't trust any of these people to be make reasonable and informed decisions.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:13
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Fox News is running very detailed how to get plan B and emergency contraception articles.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:15
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Fox News is running very detailed how to get plan B and emergency contraception articles. What’s the inference here? That they’re trying to give people bad advice? I can’t imagine very many of their viewers menstruate. Most probably never did.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:18
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Fox News is running very detailed how to get plan B and emergency contraception articles. Makes sense, their stated goal is to reduce the number of abortions happening
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Jun 28, 2022 02:18
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I AM GRANDO posted:What’s the inference here? That they’re trying to give people bad advice? I can’t imagine very many of their viewers menstruate. Most probably never did. They have readers who are conservative women in affected states, I’d imagine they are responding that demographic.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:20
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I AM GRANDO posted:What’s the inference here? That they’re trying to give people bad advice? I can’t imagine very many of their viewers menstruate. Most probably never did.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:28
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This is awful.  https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1541592291672047616
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Jun 28, 2022 02:40
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Willa Rogers posted:The GOP doesn't hate female & youthful candidates; seven of the 10 youngest current u.s. senators are republicans, and they've successfully won lots of seats with conservative women (including two-fers like Flores in TX and Sears in VA). That's like saying they don't hate black people because they have a few black candidates. They do hate women, unless they're One of the Good Ones(tm). That's why they focus their worst vitriol on those people.
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Jun 28, 2022 02:46
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Jaxyon posted:That's like saying they don't hate black people because they have a few black candidates. Who's "they"; all Republicans, including the chunk of women who vote Republican? This sounds like more ventriloquizing, tbh.
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Jun 28, 2022 03:11
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quote:Is a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy really at risk now because of Roe v. Wade, or is that some hysterical fearmongering. "Hysterical fearmongering" is a bit of a yikes phrasing here but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. There is no inappropriate anxieties about this situation. Most of the states with bans have not really considered the legal ramifications of what they are doing. In most cases the legal process itself refines and shapes the law, using court cases to smooth out vagaries in the laws. So while we exist in this awful new world where nobody is sure of anything, we're going to see a lot of legal tests. My prediction is that most states with bans will be slow to prosecute flippantly unless they think they can slam dunk it but I also think there are several states in a race to the bottom and I'm sure something horrific will absolutely arise from them.
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Jun 28, 2022 03:48
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HonorableTB posted:Thanks for the sources, Willa - reading through them, the case against Biden running only gets reinforced with the more time he's in office. Biden's biggest weakness is his age and I've always felt that, but then again I feel that about Bernie too, and I did in 2016 when I caucused for him. That Bernie had a heart attack during the primary just made that feeling validated, and I halfway expect to wake up to a CNN headline about Biden having a stroke or something almost every day. This problem extends to Nancy Pelosi, Feinstein, Hoyer, hell pick a name out of a hat and they're likely over the age of 70 if the name pool is the Democratic Party leadership. Biden's already been called 'The American Brezhnev'. Mercury_Storm posted:Dems still in the "Hillary is going to win so it won't matter" mode years later, apparently. They absolutely are. They spent decades having this mentality implanted in them, and since history went off the rails in 2016 they've been unable to reconcile that with reality all this time. They never had any other plan. Harris in particular is a Clinton creature, perhaps the ideal of one. Which is why she's so completely useless.
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Jun 28, 2022 03:54
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I'd like to take a second and brag about what Washington State is doing to protect abortion rights: https://www.opb.org/article/2022/05/03/washington-governor-inslee-promises-to-defend-abortion-rights/ Jay INSLEE posted:Washington Gov. Jay Inslee decried a draft U.S. Supreme Court opinion that would throw out the landmark Roe v. Wade ruling and said the state would provide sanctuary for women outside the state seeking abortions and would explore ways to codify abortion rights in the state’s Constitution. I like my governor
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Jun 28, 2022 04:01
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Mendrian posted:There is no inappropriate anxieties about this situation. Already seeing texts between nurses in the healthcare worker thread about it happening.
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Jun 28, 2022 04:17
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In more shaky news, North Carolina needs to be kept a close eye on. Per the article, 20% of their abortions are from out of state visitors and there is currently no path for abortion being made illegal. However, the Republicans currently have the majority in the state with a new governor coming at the end of 2024. Reminder for anyone in the south in need, NC clinics are currently expanding hours expecting an influx of patients across borders in need.
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Jun 28, 2022 04:43
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Reminder that Kamala Harris was put in charge of the SW Border situation. AFAICT she hasn't done much to alleviate the situation. Here is the May, 2022 CBP update. Big takeaways are an increase in migration, and that single adults are mostly processed and removed under Title 42 while families are processed under Title 8 and are more likely to be allowed to stay pending a court date. https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/nation...nited%20States. To summarize: 239,416 across the SW Border 2% increase over April -177,793 were unique (not repeats) 15% increase over April 165,200 were single adults -90,650 processed for expulsion under Title 42 -74,550 processed under Title 8. 59,282 family unit individuals - 9,850 processed for expulsion under Title 42. -49,432 processed under Title 8. 14,699 unaccompanied children -Average number of children in CBP custody per day is 692. An important note: Preparations for a Potential Increase in Migration Current restrictions at the U.S. border have not changed. Single adults and families encountered at the Southwest Border continue to be expelled, where appropriate, under the Centers for Disease Control’s (CDC) Title 42 public health authority. Individuals who are not expelled under Title 42 and do not have a legal basis to remain in the U.S. generally are placed in either expedited removal or full removal proceedings. In response to the increase in migration being experienced by nations across the Hemisphere, DHS is executing a comprehensive, whole-of-government plan to manage increases in the number of migrants encountered at our border, as outlined by Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro N. Mayorkas in an April 26 memo. That includes surging resources, increasing efficiencies, administering consequences, bolstering capacity of non-governmental organizations, targeting and disrupting transnational criminal organizations and smugglers, and deterring irregular migration in partnership with other agencies across the federal government and with nations throughout the hemisphere.
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Jun 28, 2022 04:49
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Timeless Appeal posted:I feel like the most frustrating part of the discourse is how clearly a lot of people trying to make these decisions don't understand basic sex-ed. Like you hear numbers like "15 weeks" and they genuinely seem to believe that two people have sex, fertilization instantly happens, and you start counting from there. When in Reality, you start counting from the first day after the last period and is usually a few weeks before conception would actually happen. I replied to an idiot on TikTok earlier (I know, I know) who replied to a lady's video about abortion with something like "look at a picture of a baby at 6 weeks and say that." So, I did and it looks like something that would be caught on River Monsters at best. They've all been indoctrinated into believing you have sex and then cart around a fully formed Pixar baby for 9 months.
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Jun 28, 2022 04:50
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haveblue posted:In Ireland about a decade ago, a woman died while doctors dithered over whether saving her from an unviable pregnancy was legal. The abortion debate is more than just murdering babies and allowing people to phrase it that way is a problem. The simple truth is there will be alot of "edge" cases where hard choices need to be made. The pro life people only thinking in terms of abortion as a form of birth control miss a big point. Like what do you do when a mother has a issue that requires on the spot intervention. again though there were times for abortion to be coded into federal law and it was never done.
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Jun 28, 2022 06:27
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Ups_rail posted:The abortion debate is more than just murdering babies and allowing people to phrase it that way is a problem. They don't care, they really don't. When put on the spot they'll make something up or default to 'punish the whores'.
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Jun 28, 2022 06:45
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Edit: Wrong thread.
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Jun 28, 2022 07:20
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Biden's already been called 'The American Brezhnev'. Hillary herself kinda hangs at the outskirts of public consciousness and occasionally pops her head in to say "miss me yet" or punch left No lessons were learned.
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Jun 28, 2022 07:30
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Quorum posted:Indeed, the fear is not that treating an ectopic pregnancy actually falls into one of the criminal statutes in question, it's that the doctor will run afoul of overzealous enforcement, vigilantes empowered by SB8-style laws, or accusations of administering abortions under the guise of treating ectopic pregnancy. Much like with the Don't Say Gay bill, the chilling effect spreads much wider than the actual footprint of the law in question. I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it those same bounty laws would put a woman having an ectopic pregnancy treated in legal jeopardy because they are civil suits and there is no presumption of innocence. So even knowing she has done nothing wrong, she would still need to mount a legal defense to avoid potential summary judgement.
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Jun 28, 2022 08:33
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Liquid Communism posted:I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it those same bounty laws would put a woman having an ectopic pregnancy treated in legal jeopardy because they are civil suits and there is no presumption of innocence. So even knowing she has done nothing wrong, she would still need to mount a legal defense to avoid potential summary judgement. Precisely. And even worse, the fee-shifting provisions are deliberately one-sided. A prevailing plaintiff can have the defendant pay all the legal costs, but a defendant who wins is still in the hole for their legal defense.
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Jun 28, 2022 11:15
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haveblue posted:In Ireland about a decade ago, a woman died while doctors dithered over whether saving her from an unviable pregnancy was legal. Entire school classes of children get murdered as close to on the reg as is possible in a country not undergoing active air strikes and Republicans don't give a gently caress. You can't get there with or without unnecessary deaths because you still keep thinking that the conservatives among you are capable of empathy or compassion beyond their in-group. Yeah, if one of their sister, daughter or wife dies of this, they will change their mind. That's one. The rest won't give a good goddamn. Nothing will change until decent Americans abandon these people in every way possible, and legislate based on actual democratic principles. Leave them to their rural shitholes, build a system of education and opportunity in cities that allows anyone willing to leave those rural shitholes, and forget about the things they care about, once and for all. Non-Republican states should just start playing the game and unilaterally legislate all sorts of poo poo, withhold tax money to keep these places alive, and attack conservative poo poo in the same way that they attack progressive...but no.  Ghost Leviathan posted:Biden's already been called 'The American Brezhnev'. He's the American Hindenburg. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 13:19
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I know this take is controversial and worthy of scorn amd ridicule, but I would like it if my dumb square home state would sucked less too. I don't believe in this crap where only the right places get to have good things.
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Jun 28, 2022 13:23
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Yeah, you realise that attacking based on status such as location only affects the people who cannot afford to change that status, or otherwise buy their way out of the consequences. Liberals have enough problems with judgements based blatantly on class signifiers. Especially given blue states notoriously have the highest rents, and otherwise remain incredibly hostile to anyone trying to move there unless they bring bags of money with them. Everyone who can has been getting out of those rural shitholes for decades, it hasn't changed anything.
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Jun 28, 2022 13:42
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Star Man posted:I know this take is controversial and worthy of scorn amd ridicule, but I would like it if my dumb square home state would sucked less too. I don't believe in this crap where only the right places get to have good things. Your dumb state sucks because of the people in it. Either you let them drag the right places down with them, or you cut the chord. America is different because people don't necessarily have the opportunity to move, and I feel for those who do. But they're a suffering minority. Every single conservative is of the complicit majority. Either way, because you insist on trying to drag the wrong places with you to some semblance of the future while they're actively kicking and screaming and biting your ankles, the right places suck a lot too. Personally I don't give a poo poo every time I hear about the death of the kind of places I grew up in, because I know about the opinions and voting demographics of the vast majority of people staying in there. I also know that everyone graduating would have moved the gently caress away with or without the lack of jobs because of those people and the environment they have created. gently caress em. Let those places die. They can die miserable hugging their homophobia, racism and the money from cities that keeps them on life support. And I can promise you whatever conservatives we have are nothing compared to the absolute wastes of human potential that each and every Republican represents. Ghost Leviathan posted:Yeah, you realise that attacking based on status such as location only affects the people who cannot afford to change that status, or otherwise buy their way out of the consequences. Liberals have enough problems with judgements based blatantly on class signifiers. Especially given blue states notoriously have the highest rents, and otherwise remain incredibly hostile to anyone trying to move there unless they bring bags of money with them. Because everyone in your country insists on giving the rural shitholes extra voting power. Why would it change anything? There isn't a country in the world where cities aren't expensive than everywhere else. If you have a support system on top of it that makes it liveable, it would work. I have seen no indication that the majority of Americans who live in urban areas would not vote for those systems if the shitholes didn't fight against all of it with their extra voting power. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 13:47
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I'm not American, for the record. And I imagine there's a good chance red states have more nonvoters than blue states. And looking at what red state Democrats are like, can you blame them? Democrats genuinely hope for a blue Texas and then post about how their calves cramp for Beto O'Rourke.
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Jun 28, 2022 13:58
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