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Jun 26, 2022 16:15
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:12 |
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Went on a Monkey ride yesterday through the Oregon Coastal range (Carlton to Blaine and back on Nestucca River Road). About 95 miles round trip. Fantastic riding - the curves, lighting and road conditions meant being at 35-45mph for the majority of it. Perfect conditions for a little 125. Nobody else on the road but me and 75 degrees/sun shine. Check out this wreck. Looks like it's been there a while.    
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Jun 26, 2022 16:36
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Lot of good that AAA sticker did them! I always laugh at that, I'm convinced that boomers think if you don't slap the sticker they send you on your car they'll refuse to tow you or something.
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Jun 26, 2022 16:55
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Lol that’s a home not a wreck
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Jun 26, 2022 17:08
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Its a split level
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Jun 26, 2022 17:27
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I’m the bullet holes
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Jun 26, 2022 18:20
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MetaJew posted:BC1 sounds like conventional ABS. Why would you want to run that versus BC2? Slavvy posted:It is basically brake by wire with computer assistance/interference ie it'll bleed pressure off if it thinks you're trail braking too hard, whereas 'normal ' abs relies only on pulsation and only works when you're upright. People complain about cornering abs making it difficult to trail brake on the track because it intervenes too early/freaks out at the wheels doing funny things, I'd say that's the point of being able to switch to a more rudimentary mode. The manual has the following to say: quote:For skilled riders and when riding at the track, due to varying conditions, the BC2 brake system may engage sooner than expected relative to your desired cornering speed or intended cornering line. UCS Hellmaker posted:What is the difference between the sp models? The site always confused me on it. Do you mean the difference between the SP and none-SP? KYB forks with adjustments for rebound and compression. None-SP has those too, but the SP also lets you change high-speed and low-speed compression damping. And most importantly the SP forks are gold coloured. Also gets an Öhlins shock. Fully adjustable piece, remote reservoir and preload adjuster. The Liquid Metal/Raven livery is the same as the R1M. A different seat cover with contrasting stitching, a clear-coated silver swingarm, and clear-smoked front and rear brake fluid reservoirs. Plus the SP also gets cruise control.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:25
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Nidhg00670000 posted:The manual has the following to say: I wasn't even really aware of the SP until your post and now I'm thinking I want one to replace my SV650SF. I started looking around on CycleTrader and it doesn't seem like there are many, if any for sale. Edit: Nevermind. MetaJew fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jun 27, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 22:28
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My post all pertains to the MT-09SP though, I actually have no idea if it's the same with the MT-10SP.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:34
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Nidhg00670000 posted:My post all pertains to the MT-09SP though, I actually have no idea if it's the same with the MT-10SP. Oh, I'm an idiot. I searched for MT-09 SP, specifically, on CycleTrader and that's the only result that came up. I didn't realize it was an MT-10. Woops
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Jun 26, 2022 23:15
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 A rare picture of me! (in the mirror)
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Jun 27, 2022 03:18
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Hello!
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Jun 27, 2022 07:35
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Beautiful. Bin the registration plate extender.
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Jun 27, 2022 08:14
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Yah, the Indians do look good.
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Jun 27, 2022 08:22
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I love that Indian built those motors to very specifically say that they are liquid cooled, twin overhead cam motors. As an engineering middle finger to Harley. Everything about that motor is designed to showcase those facts and it looks great doing it.
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Jun 27, 2022 13:01
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That's a very good looking bike.
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Jun 27, 2022 15:43
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I love that Indian built those motors to very specifically say that they are liquid cooled, twin overhead cam motors. As an engineering middle finger to Harley. They sure showed them!! *checks sales figures* wait
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Jun 27, 2022 18:53
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Maybe this is too heavy for a simple Show Your Bike thread but, while I do like the style, and like the modern aspects even more, and actually kind of want one, does it bother anyone else that they're called Indian Motorcycle?
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Jun 27, 2022 19:03
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Is the reason the single rear disc is as big as the single front disc because cruiser riders don't believe in front brakes?
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Jun 27, 2022 19:25
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epswing posted:Maybe this is too heavy for a simple Show Your Bike thread but, while I do like the style, and like the modern aspects even more, and actually kind of want one, does it bother anyone else that they're called Indian Motorcycle? Yes.
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Jun 27, 2022 19:27
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knox_harrington posted:Is the reason the single rear disc is as big as the single front disc because cruiser riders don't believe in front brakes? Yes.
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Jun 27, 2022 19:27
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I am the only white person in my home and if I ever brought home an Indian motorcycle, I would need to find a new place to live.
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Jun 27, 2022 19:39
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Slavvy posted:They sure showed them!! *checks sales figures* wait Doesnt meant they arent right. The average Harley buyer doesnt want the best design, they want HURRITAGE
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Jun 27, 2022 19:41
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epswing posted:Maybe this is too heavy for a simple Show Your Bike thread but, while I do like the style, and like the modern aspects even more, and actually kind of want one, does it bother anyone else that they're called Indian Motorcycle? Yes, rekindling the brand name to coast off of brand recognition made some sense at the time, but nowadays its just kind of  They could sell them if they had a different name just as well I'd imagine, since there arent really any ties to original Indian motorcycles other than the name.
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Jun 27, 2022 19:43
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As a native american it's fine so long as they give me one as reparation Otherwise they should get bought by KTM and move production to actual India
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Jun 27, 2022 19:54
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epswing posted:Maybe this is too heavy for a simple Show Your Bike thread but, while I do like the style, and like the modern aspects even more, and actually kind of want one, does it bother anyone else that they're called Indian Motorcycle? It would be so easy to rename them to 'tomahawk' or something idk, I'm white tho. This is very amusing because it means that both american bike brands are racist, but on an indian it's there from the factory. Winning! knox_harrington posted:Is the reason the single rear disc is as big as the single front disc because cruiser riders don't believe in front brakes? Partly yes, partly because cruisers are very long and tail heavy so the rear brake has far, far more potential than normal bikes, so you may as well make it huge and take advantage. Jim Silly-Balls posted:Doesnt meant they arent right. The average Harley buyer doesnt want the best design, they want HURRITAGE You keep saying stuff like this but it's just truthism AFAICT. Explain to me in what way it's 'better' to have DOHC and liquid cooling when you're building a cruiser; like what makes the indian the 'best' design in your mind? Is it better or worse than, say, a suzuki boulevard? Those are also DOHC and liquid cooled and a v-twin. Is it better or worse than a BMW R18? A triumph thunderbird? What's the metric?
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Jun 28, 2022 01:31
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Its not that the Indian is the best design. Mechanically it’s probably (I’ve never seen one torn apart) mostly the same as any other liquid cooled twin ohc motor. What I’m saying is that air cooled pushrod motors are pretty objectively not the best design anymore. Harley isn’t sticking with them because they’re in some way better. They’re doing it because that’s what they’ve always done. They literally have a bike called the heritage. No other manufacturer, at least that I’m aware of is doing air cooled pushrod motors anymore. Harley CAN make some of the best designs when they set their mind to it. The v-rod, the live wire, the xr750, etc, so it’s not even that I think they aren’t capable, because they are. Beve Stuscemi fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 01:50
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:No other manufacturer, at least that I’m aware of is doing air cooled pushrod motors anymore. Love my American heritage  
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Jun 28, 2022 02:01
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Its not that the Indian is the best design. Mechanically it’s probably (I’ve never seen one torn apart) mostly the same as any other liquid cooled twin ohc motor. 1. I was mistaken in my earlier post, the bmw R18 is both air cooled and pushrod, it just has 4 valve heads...so it's exactly like a Harley M8! Stupid Germans, don't know anything about engines... 2. "What I’m saying is that air cooled pushrod motors are pretty objectively not the best design anymore." What is the best design and why? 3. Harley are literally in the middle of phasing out all but one air cooled model and replacing them all with dohc water cooled bikes!! Basically nothing you've said seems to hold any water besides the self evident statement that Harley have always made Harleys. Heritage not hate!
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Jun 28, 2022 02:10
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Desmodromic valves are clearly the best design, but Honda are stuck in their old fashioned sprung valve ways out of silly japanese heritage. It's not that they can't make them, they just choose not to for some reason!!
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Jun 28, 2022 02:14
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So, are you arguing that air cooled pushrod motors ARE the best design?
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Jun 28, 2022 02:20
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That's what I thought  I'm arguing that there isn't anything particularly bad about them to make it worth singling out. I'm trying to puzzle out what you mean when you say 'the best'. Kawasaki made a 250cc cafe racer with a bevel drive air cooled single in the late 90's, the name escapes me. Idk where that lands on the best/worst spectrum but I found it fun to ride and the bevel whine made it more interesting than a gn or whatever, didn't seem to offer any benefit or drawback. The Yamaha mt-01 is a pushrod air cooled v-twin in a jumbo R1 chassis and it is splendid, like an alternate universe Buell made by sensible people. I suspect the compact pushrod heads mean it isn't as top heavy as it looks and thus it rolls really well, but that's honestly searching for an excuse. It has a shitton of torque right off idle and made me think of a 2 wheeled Corvette. I thought it was rad af but the best? Idk.
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Jun 28, 2022 05:26
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Thanks everyone for your words about my bike. The extender I think looks terrible from the side but good from the back. I might put a side mount on it instead though. No idea yet! I'm also going to change the exhaust ends (billets?) if I can, because I think they are fairly ugly on what is a very beautiful bike. Slavvy posted:That's what I thought Harley engines are undersquare designs, which means a longer stroke, higher camshaft radius and lower rpm, and using pushrods instead of overhead cams also means less efficiency, but they are made this way because of the way the engines look. Harley buyers like air vents on the piston chambers and pushrods on the sides. Indian are using an oversquare engine which is more efficient, but requires more cooling which is why they made it liquid cooled!
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Jun 28, 2022 07:03
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TescoBag posted:Thanks everyone for your words about my bike. The extender I think looks terrible from the side but good from the back. I might put a side mount on it instead though. No idea yet! I'm also going to change the exhaust ends (billets?) if I can, because I think they are fairly ugly on what is a very beautiful bike. Nope, this is wrong sorry. What does 'less efficiency' mean? Why do you think bore:stroke ratio is related to efficiency? Harley can make the engine look however they like, there are loads of ohc metric cruisers out there deliberately dressed up to look archaic. Basically almost none of this is true and I'm too tired to debunk it.
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Jun 28, 2022 07:39
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Slavvy posted:Nope, this is wrong sorry. What does 'less efficiency' mean? Why do you think bore:stroke ratio is related to efficiency? Harley can make the engine look however they like, there are loads of ohc metric cruisers out there deliberately dressed up to look archaic. Basically almost none of this is true and I'm too tired to debunk it. I didn't say bore:stroke ratio was related to efficiency. A shorter stroke means the piston has to travel less of a distance and is more available to force acting on it which allows higher RPM. Pushrods use more mass, which means valves can't open and close as quickly wheras overhead cams don't have that issue. Higher RPM means higher horsepower. Both can have torque though, but the more modern oversquare engines have torque and horsepower (a bit more torque, much more horsepower) as far as I'm aware. Harley have seen this coming though, which is why a lot of their new bikes are liquid cooled oversquare engines. This is just my understanding of how it works though, if I'm wrong then let me know. No need to be aggressive!
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Jun 28, 2022 08:27
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TescoBag posted:I didn't say bore:stroke ratio was related to efficiency. A shorter stroke means the piston has to travel less of a distance and is more available to force acting on it which allows higher RPM. Pushrods use more mass, which means valves can't open and close as quickly wheras overhead cams don't have that issue. Higher RPM means higher horsepower. Both can have torque though, but the more modern oversquare engines have torque and horsepower (a bit more torque, much more horsepower) as far as I'm aware. You're wrong on several layers in the sense that you've taken technically correct information and arranged it a way that fits together to create a fictional picture. The real picture is much, much more complicated and has strands that trail off into all sorts of different areas so I'll try to be brief cause it's late. Yes, technically shorter stroke gives you a higher possible rev ceiling, but no bike anywhere near the cruiser segment is remotely close to pushing the boundary on rpm-limited performance. Your scout doesn't rev anywhere near as high as a Ducati panigale v2, this doesn't mean it's less efficient somehow. The rpm ranges of the bikes are a voluntary choice. Horsepower is not efficiency. Engines make torque, their efficiency determines how much torque they make for a given capacity at the rpm determined by the designer. If you put the torque near the top of the rpm range, you will get lots of power. You can have a torque monster dohc motor, you can have a screaming high revving ohv motor. This stuff is determined by a variety of factors. Bore:stroke is a reflection of where the designer wanted the engine to make torque and how it's delivered, shorter stroke =/= more efficient; it's actually usually the other way around. Pushrods having more mass is neither here nor there because, again, we aren't operating anywhere near the rpm where this stuff matters or the scout would be equipped with desmo 5v heads for maximum free spinning efficiency. Ohc valve trains are surprisingly lossy! Most valvetrain losses come from valve spring pressure and cam opening ramp steepness; ktm thumpers come to mind for being about as hard to turn over with the plug out as a normal engine with the plug in. All bikes in this segment have soft springs pushing small valves not very far, because they're cruisers. One thing that does influence efficiency is valves per cylinder, in the sense that 4v gives more flexibility wrt making cam profiles with quick lift yet low overlap. This isn't because anyone wanted this or it's somehow more efficient, but rather because this profile is cleaner as demanded by emissions regulations. The modern Harley big twin has 4v heads for this reason. Water cooling of the cylinders is largely a question of heat buildup vs time vs weight. There's an argument to be made here that a full dress bagger being air cooled is less than ideal from a rider point of view, however there's no real bearing on efficiency because again, none of these bikes are fast or powerful enough for this stuff to matter. What does matter is cooling the exhaust port area of the head, and again we're in the zone where Harley are able to run oil cooling passages through the head to do the job, with the full dress bikes having water cooled heads for I suspect comfort reasons more than anything performance related. Bearing in mind Harleys can be fitted with significantly more aggressive cam profiles and other tuning measures while remaining emissions friendly, all at a premium price of course. Marketing is mqore at play than performance here. Why Harley are building new engines is because you eventually reach a point with older designs where emissions demands are so strict that it's cheaper to create a new design than change the old one. You're changing tooling and doing r&d anyway, might as well change everything and get the most for your buck. Big steps let you integrate large production method changes that usually aren't possible with minor tweaks, this usually saves big $$$$. They also want to sell bikes to younger and poorer people and those bikes need to be small and light, they aren't stopping air cooled production afaik, they just can't make them cheap enough while also meeting emissions regulations. Finally, I'd add that if we were racing these things it'd be a different story but, well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elYAdAP0fvU
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Jun 28, 2022 09:50
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Slavvy posted:Interesting post Thanks very much for this info, it's a really interesting read! So if it's not the oversquare design, or the overhead cams, or the liquid cooling that has made the difference, how is it that the 1100cc indian motor is able to make as much horsepower/torque (although not quite as much) as the Harley 1600cc+ engines?
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Jun 28, 2022 19:40
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I witnessed King of the Baggers first hand at Road America and they are really awesome. Its bizarre to see a bagger go that fast in real life (yes, I know these are baggers in the same way that the Camry Nascar is like the Camry you can buy from the dealer)
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Jun 28, 2022 20:32
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Horsepower is a function of torque x rpm, so it's an easy and marketable way to look 'better than x' because all you have to do is sacrifice some bottom end in the name of top end. Harley intentionally choose to make a slow revving engine because it's better in a variety of ways in the real world. Torque is a function of thermal and volumetric efficiency. In theory, liquid cooled motors can make more for a given capacity and bulk because they evacuate heat much faster. In practice, on low performance bikes like cruisers, the limitation is cooling the exhaust valve bridge. The Harley engine is just as efficient, but is deliberately down tuned for marketing purposes which leaves lots of cooling headroom for Screaming Eagle Patriot Power Parts(tm) to be fitted. I cbf tracking down Dyno charts of a scout vs an M8 but that would probably help you. Horsepower is an abstract number with no meaning outside of racing. Torque of a contextless number that tells you very little about engine character and mostly just lets you approximate efficiency. See walls of text here And here
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Jun 28, 2022 20:40
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:12 |
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Slavvy posted:Horsepower is a function of torque x rpm, so it's an easy and marketable way to look 'better than x' because all you have to do is sacrifice some bottom end in the name of top end. Harley intentionally choose to make a slow revving engine because it's better in a variety of ways in the real world. Honestly, thank you for taking the time to educate me.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:50
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