|
danbanana posted:If your interpretation of the Krakoa Era books so far is "writers think this is a great idea and do not understand the consequences of this" then... I dunno. X-Force from day one was about- good or bad- the dirty laundry of an ethnostate. Everything with Moira was set up to blow up in their face. Xavier has been shown over and over again to be inept at the political dealings of the LITERAL VILLAINS they've aligned with. Hellions and New Mutants have both asked questions about whether clones of mutants actually count as mutants (or rather, "who belongs in our ethnostate?"). Almost every major story since Hickman took over has been about ethical questions of creating Krakoa. But this mostly is a 'simplifies and clarifies the actual issues we're looking at' thing, and/or possibly having some kind of five-ocracy running a pocket island state eventually instead of everyone trooping back to the upstate schoolhouse and/or the grave.
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:04 |
|
|
Krakoa is good and bad. Scott and Jean had to tell them to gently caress off in X of Swords then again when they reformed the X-Men. But bringing all the mutants together and resurrection is great.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 17:54
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Instead, the general X-book consensus seems to be that Krakoa has been the best thing to happen to mutants, possibly ever. To be fair, that's an incredibly low hurdle to clear. Part of what makes Krakoa seem so necessary is the back to back to back extinction level events that have befallen mutants as a people in recent times. We are absolutely supposed to question the ethical, moral, and political implications of it all, but it makes sense in universe why everyone jumped on board so quickly. What oppressed peoples wouldn't want a safe haven far from their oppressors, where death is no longer a concern? That all said, I'm not sure "fascist" is the best way to describe the Krakoan government, though I'm not really knowledgeable enough to argue one way or another. glitchwraith fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jun 28, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
Krakoa (so far) absolutely isn't fascist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:19
|
|
|
I dunno where the "everything on Krakoa is great per the stories" interpretations are coming from, since again every major story has pretty much been about how precarious things are both from internal issues and external. That the general mutant populace- the kind that aren't part of the mutant CIA or on the Council or are fighting the Shadow King or whatever- seems to be enjoying an island paradise is an important part of showing off what those issues are. It's very Omelas...
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:29
|
|
|
I've a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer to, I've read reign of x up to vol. 10 and the Hellfire Gala, I want to finish out hickamans part of the story, did he write any more issues before inferno? Because I can't see any listed on the reading lists. Can I jump from the Gala, reign of x 10 to inferno?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:36
|
|
|
glitchwraith posted:To be fair, that's an incredibly low hurdle to clear. Part of what makes Krakoa seem so necessary is the back to back to back extinction level events that have befallen mutants as a people in recent times. We are absolutely supposed to question the ethical, moral, and political implications of it all, but it makes sense in universe why everyone jumped on board so quickly. What oppressed peoples wouldn't want a safe haven far from their oppressors, where death is no longer a concern?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:40
|
|
|
louis friend posted:I've a question that I can't seem to find a clear answer to, I've read reign of x up to vol. 10 and the Hellfire Gala, I want to finish out hickamans part of the story, did he write any more issues before inferno? Because I can't see any listed on the reading lists. Can I jump from the Gala, reign of x 10 to inferno? If you're just looking for Hickman stuff you should be good
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
I feel like the issue with Krakoa, aside from the large number of readers who are eager to jump on the "death to humans" train, is that they've incorporated so many Comics Bad Ideas that it's hard to separate them from the normal bad ideas. Like, when Krakoa eventually explodes, are people going to remember it as happening because they decided to judge people based on whether they have an X-gene rather than the content of their characters, or because they decided to make Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse (let alone the villains who aren't officially villains like Professor X and Beast) part of the government?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 19:18
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:aside from the large number of readers who are eager to jump on the "death to humans" train The what train? Someone please point to where "mutant sovereignty," the textual definition of Krakoa-as-a-nation, jumped to "mutant supremacy?" Because it's literally not in any book I've read. These are stories written by people to create entertaining drama for readers, and that includes creating drama by giving someone like Sinister governmental powers. I'd argue the answers to "What would mutant laws look like?" and "Should mutant amnesty extend to mass murderers and people who have stabbed us in the back 50 times in the past?" may not be executed flawlessly by the people making these books, but that a mainstream Big 2 comic is asking those is pretty interesting!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
danbanana posted:The what train? It's been there from the very beginning, when they announced that mutants would no longer be subject to human laws and Magneto gleefully declared themselves the new gods of the planet. It's kind of hard to discuss, since as far as I can see there's a Civil War situation going on where there's no real agreement on what "not subject to human laws" means, especially since it's hard to believe that any government would ever have agreed to most interpretations even to get life-extension drugs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 19:57
|
|
|
Part of the problem is that so much of X-history is on the table and some characters have been written so inconsistently that a writer can write a completely valid intepretation of someone like Xavier in one book and it be completely different in the other. Like baseline, we understand that Xavier at the very least was dishonest. But in some books he's dishonest but overall you can see how he cares about people or why they follow him and that overall now that we're here he's letting people do Krakoa their way even if it isn't all his way, but in some books, like, Sabertooth of the top of my head, he's like total authoritarian and the X-Men should be plotting to get rid of him ASAP. Neither of these are invalid reads. But I think editorial should be trying to create a cohesive product and editorial has been a major failing of Marvel over the last ten years or so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:02
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:It's been there from the very beginning, when they announced that mutants would no longer be subject to human laws and Magneto gleefully declared themselves the new gods of the planet. Please explain what "human laws" would mean and how "mutants running an independent nation and do so with some loving bluster" violates them? And how that translates to "actually we're going to kill all humans?" I'm trying to avoid real world allegories since this is a fictional world with Iron Men and people with PhDs in "DOOM" but... this isn't that much different than what Saudi Arabia or China does here (or the U.S.!). Telling the international community that they don't have to follow "agreed upon" human rights isn't a crazy, dystopian sci-fi thing. It's happening in our world right now! "Give us our sovereignty and let us have immunity or you don't get our drugs" sounds perfectly normal if you replace "drugs" with "oil." Or "military weapons." Or "cheap manufacturing costs." Again, I don't love how all these stories have been told (a book about the mutant CIA is extremely off-putting to me no matter how "realistic" it is) so I can understand a general distaste for Krakoa as a whole. But I'm not projecting things onto it that aren't there textually or even implied. Krakoa is a mutant-nation founded on the history of repeated genocides against them. That's not mutant supremacy or promotion of human genocide.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:27
|
|
|
There was that issue of Hickman's X-Men where Xavier, Magneto and Apocalypse went to Davos and just bluntly stated "we're gonna use all the money you guys pay us for our life saving drugs to buy out all of your institutions and take over the world." But actual genocide of humans has never been on the agenda since Krakoa started, just absolute subordination of their political will. Edit: I take back my previous statement of Krakoa not being fascist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:36
|
|
|
danbanana posted:Please explain what "human laws" would mean and how "mutants running an independent nation and do so with some loving bluster" violates them? And how that translates to "actually we're going to kill all humans?" Frankly, it's not my job to explain that? It's Marvel's job and as far as I can tell while not reading anything like every X-book they're not doing a great job at it. But it is extremely explicit, as in, this is like the very first thing that happened in House of X, that mutants have declared themselves not subject to human laws as part of an "amnesty" that somehow applies infinitely forward in time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:38
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:There was that issue of Hickman's X-Men where Xavier, Magneto and Apocalypse went to Davos and just bluntly stated "we're gonna use all the money you guys pay us for our life saving drugs to buy out all of your institutions and take over the world." Something Cool and Good! Using economic and political leverage to help protect your people from those that have repeatedly genocided them seems perfectly fine to me!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:40
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Frankly, it's not my job to explain that? It's Marvel's job and as far as I can tell while not reading anything like every X-book they're not doing a great job at it. We (USA) currently have a standing plan to invade the Hague in case any American get's brought up on war crimes charges by them. It's that kinda thing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:41
|
|
|
Not directly related, but I'm currently reading two different book series where people oppressed because of their super powers commit a genocide.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:44
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:We (USA) currently have a standing plan to invade the Hague in case any American get's brought up on war crimes charges by them. It's that kinda thing. But this is the opposite of that, in that it apparently involves the USA agreeing that it has no power over crimes being committed in its own sovereign territory by people who are quite possibly also US citizens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:45
|
|
|
danbanana posted:Something Cool and Good! Using economic and political leverage to help protect your people from those that have repeatedly genocided them seems perfectly fine to me! I feel like the fact that you're able to take this reading from what was actually said is a pretty excellent example of the kind of reaction I was talking about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
One of the three laws of Krakoa is Murder No Man and the first punishment the Council dealt out was to banish Sabretooth for killing a single digit number of humans during a heist, I know genocide/ethnocide is a relatively all-encompassing term for policy outside of straight up executions, but as a day to day state policy they are very much not supposed to be killing any humans, much less all humans.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I feel like the fact that you're able to take this reading from what was actually said is a pretty excellent example of the kind of reaction I was talking about. Please read that issue again. Magneto's threat is in direct response to a suggestion that the creation of Krakoa will lead to human-mutant conflict, "the same place this always [leads]." Mags shuts that the gently caress down by saying, no, actually, there won't be a war because instead we'll just gently caress you over with your own "silent" weapons. Responding to a literal threat of "if you make your own country we'll try to kill you again" by saying "try it motherfuckers and see what happens" isn't a sign of mutant fascism. (Also while this conversation is happening, Cyclops is LITERALLY GETTING ATTACKED BY HUMAN MILITARY PEOPLE TRYING TO ASSASSINATE THE KRAKOAN DELEGATION.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
And again, the X-Men specifically went out to build a base in New York to protect everyone. Humans, mutants, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:08
|
|
|
Considering basic human rights is something that in the comics many of the governments haven't provided mutants it stands to reason that human laws also don't apply when the gov't no longer has the power to force them to be obeyed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:10
|
|
|
Given everything it does not seem like an incorrect in-character inference that while many individual non-mutants will like, love, and support mutants, there will pretty much always be the people who are, at best, going to try to enslave mutants, and more likely, are going to try to murder them or prevent their arising, save possibly in some kind of controlled super-soldier program. At this point, it does not seem like genre-savviness or something, it seems like a straight up fact of nature in a way it might not have been in the Claremont era. Given that, positioning yourself so that the people who definitely don't want to hurt mutants, and the people who don't really give a poo poo and just want to grill, have a reason to go 'don't kill the mutants,' seems like a solid thing to do. Magneto is certainly not advancing a theory of abstract heroic sacrifice in saying 'we will buy you out,' but I imagine it was meant to be similar to things like Khruschev boasting that the USSR would bury the capitalist West, etc. There would be other possibilities. One would be to abandon the idea of mutant identity entirely. Some people have genetic superpowers, whatever. This would not be irrational but it seems that this ship has sailed, and why should the mutants be the one to give something up? What do they get from it, other than a somewhat lower chance of death by Sentinel? Another would be to not have comic books about mutant extermination for a good long while, but hey! Krakoa's at least deferring that poo poo, and making it so it will be exciting when it happens instead of just "and then, the Purifiers shot a school bus with an anti-tank missile."
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:12
|
|
|
Well, what of it? They're still planning to take over the world. The sin at the root of Krakoa is that its founders allowed themselves to be taken over ideologically, even as they seized material advantage. They've conceded that the bigots trying to kill them were right all along: "human" and "mutant" are distinct categories and will always be at odds. They've accepted that merciless race war is a natural part of evolution, whatever that is, and built their society around being the ones who win.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:13
|
|
|
danbanana posted:Something Cool and Good! Using economic and political leverage to help protect your people from those that have repeatedly genocided them seems perfectly fine to me! According to House of X, without the creation of Krakoa, multiple mutant genocides will occur in the future as well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:14
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I feel like the issue with Krakoa, aside from the large number of readers who are eager to jump on the "death to humans" train As has been repeatedly rebuffed, this isn't the "death to humans" train, it's a factually and textually oppressed group who many people allegorically identify with standing up for themselves against people who want them in camps and/or dead. People identify with this because [gestures broadly to the state of the world] Hope this helps
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:14
|
|
|
Abroham Lincoln posted:As has been repeatedly rebuffed, this isn't the "death to humans" train, it's a factually and textually oppressed group who many people allegorically identify with standing up for themselves against people who want them in camps and/or dead. No, I've definitely seen people online who are extremely on the "death to humans" train.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:16
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Well, what of it? They're still planning to take over the world. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:17
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:No, I've definitely seen people online who are extremely on the "death to humans" train. Well then maybe you should engage and hold a meaningful discussion with these online people because that viewpoint isn't being expressed here 
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
Getting a lot of questions about my "Krakoa Is A Narratively Interesting And In-Universe Totally-Understandable Storyline Containing Both Beauty and Tragedy That Will Inform X-Comics For A Long Time And I Love It" shirt, which are largely what it says because the letters are pretty small
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:22
|
|
|
LOL "This repeatedly genocided minority must want a race war if they're *checks notes* fighting back."
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
danbanana posted:LOL Now I will be fair that yes, Magneto's rhetoric and attitude are neither kind nor charitable, but Magneto, like Charles Barkley, is not a role model. But it's sure nicer than what mutants have gotten historically in the MCU.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 21:32
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Magneto, like Charles Barkley, is not a role model. But Let him finish! There's two moments in HoXPoX that stood out at the time as signposting Krakoa's ultimate downfall, but have not quite panned out that way. The first was the issue that ends with Xavier and Apocalypse shaking hands, and the second was the last issue which ends with the council throwing Sabretooth into the pit and immediately afterwards going to a big party. Now it turns out that pardoning former super-villains has, in general, not been much of a problem (with the massive exception of Sinister, but who didn't see that coming). Apocalypse played nice, Daken is cool again, Selene had a thing but now she's on ice, Mystique is... Mystique. Several years on we're now dealing with the Sabretooth thing, and it still seems to carry the same message it did at the time: the Quiet Council is an all-powerful body answerable to no one. But since then, we've also had the Five as well as other flex on the Council from time to time. It seems likely that there'll be some sort of blowback on them for the whole Pit thing by the time the Sabretooth mini finishes. The question of "what bodies are buried in the backyard of a nation" has largely been shifted to X-Force instead of the Council.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
x force is less about the inherent evils of black ops and more about how no one should ever trust hank mccoy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 00:19
|
|
|
danbanana posted:I dunno where the "everything on Krakoa is great per the stories" interpretations are coming from, since again every major story has pretty much been about how precarious things are both from internal issues and external. That the general mutant populace- the kind that aren't part of the mutant CIA or on the Council or are fighting the Shadow King or whatever- seems to be enjoying an island paradise is an important part of showing off what those issues are. It's very Omelas... What we end up with, then, is the concluding thesis statement that Krakoa wooould be perfect.......if it weren't for that pesky Xavior or that pesky Moira or that pesky McCoy. This extremist state that uprooted an entire race of peoples and feeds them on a daily ration of mutant supremacist/human inferiority ideals would be totally fine as a concept if not for the shady backroom stuff that its officials indulge in. But...that backroom stuff is not actually the main problem here. The main problems -- the supremecist mindsets, the isolationist ethnostate -- have actually been displayed out in the open daylight, and have largely been celebrated by the story instead of being depicted as a cautionary tale. Stories like the Hellfire Gala and Planet-Sized X-Men absolutely depict how great it is that the X-Men are on Krakoa now and how it's something every downtrodden demographic should wish that they had.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I'm not sure if there was another major genocide attempt after Alex's helpful input into the discourse here, but if there was I bet he still gets dope-slaps from Scott. There was! It’s best left forgotten because it happened right before HoX/PoX and was immediately retconned away
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 01:18
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:What we end up with, then, is the concluding thesis statement that Krakoa wooould be perfect.......if it weren't for that pesky Xavior or that pesky Moira or that pesky McCoy. I don't think the flaws of the architects becoming the flaws of the creation is as contradictory as you're portraying it to be.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 01:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:04 |
|
|
There's gotta be more than one attempted mutantcide between "Don't say the M word" and Krakoa.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2022 01:27
|
|