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mlmp08 posted:Are you ignoring YPG by choice or do you think they are synonymous with PKK? Do you think it matters? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 28, 2022 20:58
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Nenonen posted:Do you think it matters? Why are you redirecting? The YPG is mentioned explicitly in the agreement, but you keep talking only about the PKK and throwing out accusations and just refused to answer a simple question.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:59
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Hopefully the Kurds can make painful for everyone involved in this agreement.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:02
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mlmp08 posted:Why are you redirecting? The YPG is mentioned explicitly in the agreement, but you keep talking only about the PKK and throwing out accusations and just refused to answer a simple question. Because I don't understand your question, you brought YPG up so I'm curious. Is it important? Are Finland and Sweden major supporters of YPG? What is going to change? Is this really the doomsday for Kurds like some have painted it to be? I'm saying that it's all hyperbole.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:03
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Nenonen posted:this whole operation has been a wet fart and embarassment for Turkey. We absolutely do not know this. I don't believe that any of this tantrum was about Sweden, Finland, or even the Kurds. Türkiye needs American jets to maintain their military position, and because of their adventures in Syria and poor choice of AA system suppliers, US cut the off. NATO expansion is just a convenient lever to put pressure on the US, in a situation where the Erdogan didn't have a lot of other options. I'd be really surprised if in next few months (that is, after just long enough that it won't publicly look like US caving on the issue) a deal about F-16's won't be brokered.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:07
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Tuna-Fish posted:We absolutely do not know this. Will it be F-16s though? That might not sot well with Greece. Maybe a lesser plane?
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Jun 28, 2022 21:12
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Tuna-Fish posted:We absolutely do not know this. It is true, we don't know yet. Which is why we should wait and see how it goes. With Erdogan, it's questionable if even this agreement will carry on for more than a week. But with the elections approaching next year, it's unlikely that he wants to drag this on further than getting some kind of win in domestic media.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:16
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Nenonen posted:It is true, we don't know yet. Which is why we should wait and see how it goes. With Erdogan, it's questionable if even this agreement will carry on for more than a week. But with the elections approaching next year, it's unlikely that he wants to drag this on further than getting some kind of win in domestic media. Pro-Erdogan media is saying it's a win, remains to be seen if his base agrees https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1541859634373435392
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Jun 28, 2022 21:18
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Kuule hain nussivan posted:Will it be F-16s though? That might not sot well with Greece. Maybe a lesser plane? Turkey has had locally license built F-16's for decades and they have 270 of them, but the plane has gone through several modernization stages. I have lost track which block is the latest but they want the new stuff now.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:21
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Maybe this is 7D chess to buy some sweet Gripens.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:24
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Nenonen posted:Because I don't understand your question, you brought YPG up so I'm curious. Is it important? Yes, I think so. I did not bring up the YPG. The governments of Finland, Sweden, and Turkey did. The YPG are different from the PKK and have relationships with NATO members. This appears to ensure Finland and Sweden will not work with or support YPG as part of NMI or other D-ISIS Ops and will consider them persona non-grata unless they just go back on their word later. It’s not the end of the universe, as Finland and Sweden are small in the scheme of things, but it is a way for Turkey to ensure the newest potential NATO members swear not to conduct ops or interact with the YPG in ways other NATO members already do. That is why I was asking whether you were ignoring the YPG by choice or out of ignorance of their existence in the agreement and being a group that is distinct from the PKK.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:25
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Is Turkey still operating those S-400 systems? I know part of buying them was as a "gently caress you" to their NATO partners because Erdogan strong!, but I wonder how much they value them now. Trade them for Patriots and send them to Ukraine with the next batch of TB2s already.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:27
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orcane posted:Is Turkey still operating those S-400 systems? I know part of buying them was as a "gently caress you" to their NATO partners because Erdogan strong!, but I wonder how much they value them now. The best we know is they are. I reckon they may be having some second thoughts about it now.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:28
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Kuule hain nussivan posted:Will it be F-16s though? That might not sot well with Greece. Maybe a lesser plane? The F-16 is the lesser plane. From there it goes up to the F-15, then F-35, and then F-22 (if they wanted to restart that production line)
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Jun 28, 2022 21:41
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Kuule hain nussivan posted:Will it be F-16s though? That might not sot well with Greece. Maybe a lesser plane? Greece has already announced intent to buy F-35. F-16's are not much of a threat to them.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:41
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Rust Martialis posted:Not sure why banning a party glorifying the CPSU and the Soviet Union (and denying the legitimacy of an independent Ukraine) is particularly noteworthy in any event. Any more than banning Nazis in Germany. Not just nazis. Germany also banned the German Communist Party in 1956. The court ruled it an anti-constitutional extremist organization.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:42
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Doccers posted:F-22 (if they wanted to restart that production line) F-22 restart is never happening. It would cost more than developing a brand new plane. (F-22 production depended on a lot of old methods that have been completely replaced in the industry by now.) The new hotness will be NGAD, but that's not expected to reach operational status until the 2030's, so until then the F-35 is the best plane that money can buy.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:44
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https://twitter.com/kofmanmichael/status/1541806128874803200 Edit: https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/1541752997440544775 cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 22:08
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Text dump notes from UN security council meeting Pt 1 UN Security Council meeting 6/28 - maintenance of peace and security in Ukraine Current chair is held by Albania Estonia, Poland, Ukraine also participating Zelensky is speaking at some point Introduction by the Undersecretary - poo poo's really bad Zelensky comments: UN does not have a legal definition of 'terrorist state' but Russia is behaving as one Term should be enshrined legally, including punishments Discusses consequences of strikes from yesterday including the damage to human bodies Mentions the strikes yesterday in Kharkiv, the mall, on people going for water Zelensky listing names of the dead - "if any other country behaved this way it would be recognized as terrorism" [US carefully makes no eyecontact] Every day Russia is attacking and acting as terrorists - cites chapter and verse of UN charter Asks that Russia be deprived of rights in the UN General Assembly/SC - "only way to be consistent with UN charter" Asks for the establishment of an international Tribunal to investigate Russia for Genocide this meeting would have to go on and on for days to discuss every terrorist act by Russia Holds a moment of silence for victims Albania Calls this a 'senseless war of aggression' that has gone on too long Millions across the world have found themselves collateral damage of this war that has nothing to do with them Russia called withdrawal of troops from Kyiv a goodwill gesture - time has shown this to be a lie it's now extremely clear that Russia is targeting civilians, and that these acts are done for intimidation to show they can hit anyone anywhere anytime Russia is committing war crimes and must pay for these actions Actions are not limited to Ukraine - discusses how Russian politicians/media talk about nuclear strikes and hitting uninvolved countries, cyber attacks, their deliberate disruption of food stocks US Echoed the previous speaker Says Russia has clearly committed war crimes - not just the strikes yesterday but also the deliberate targeting of hospitals/schools, forcing Ukrainians into Russia, deliberately attacking journalists and humanitarian workers "Justice must come" - US supports the UN/International Court investigation into war crimes in Ukraine, prosecution of said cases France: Full solidarity with Ukraine Condemns strike on mall, 'only the latest in a long string' - Russia deliberately bombarding civilian infrastructure Calls on Russia to end this war, enable humanitarian access to areas under conflict Brazil Doesn't name Russia or call out their actions Calls on both sides to come together to end the war 'both sides' need to respect humanitarian law, engage in constructive dialogue to achieve this goal There must be a political solution, immediately cease hostilities and resume negotiations Security council is responsible for creating space for dialogue UK War has gone on for 4 months, and Russia continues to 'pummel' Donbas seeking full control of the region See above Ireland Compliance with humanitarian law is not optional - the attacks yesterday were not the first by Russia Russia should be held accountable for their actions in Ukraine Same as above Kenya "Kenya stands in solidarity with the people of Ukraine" who are suffering "Gravely concerned" - Drink!- by the intensified airstrikes on civilian objects across Ukraine These acts constitute a violation of international/humanitarian law, the UN charter Worsening food insecurity, inflation, due to this conflict is undermining efforts to recover from Covid 19 Need to cushion the most vulnerable from the effects of the conflict, both in and outside of Ukraine Prioritize the peaceful, diplomatic cessation of the war that offers lasting international security 'respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine within their internationally recognized borders' Ghana Calls for independent investigations into the mall attack Each day the need for a 'peaceful durable solution' to the 'conflict' goes Calls for diplomacy - see above Mexico See above, more focus on ag export problems Pt 2 starts with Russia's statement
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Jun 28, 2022 22:36
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Part 2 - This one's longer yikes. it was a 2 hour meeting, OK? You can skip it if you like. More editorializing in this one Russia"gravely concerned" regarding that Zelensky was allowed to participate, Russia was not consulted in this matter This violates existing practice and Russia is mad about it, Zelensky spoke to the council once already shouldn't have gotten to again Should only be allowed if in the chamber, UN SC should not be the site of a 'remote campaign for more weapons' Ukraine is trying to undermine the council by making it the grounds for 'acting performances' Special military campaign was to end the war of the Kyiv Regime against the people of Donbas Ukraine is much more concerned about the information front than the military front, called the west 'collaborators' in this Ukraine is producing so many fakes -brings up - Snake Island "they didn't actually die tho, Ukraine is still making stamps!!" - Ghost of Kyiv (lol) - Ukraine making a bunch of video fakes, so is the BBC Says Ukraine has "western handlers" and that they know what's on the ground doesn't matter Claims again that Bucha was a provocation, was carried out by the Ukrainian military, uses it as marketing to western leaders and Ukraine in fact always intended to use it that way Apparently the shelling of the train station in Kramatorsk was carried out by the White Hats and Ukraine, not Russia Russia big mad about stories of soldiers looting - particularly washing machines Everyone is soooo mad at Russia for Nooooo reason Claims that there are now stories everywhere of Ukrainians committing war crimes are coming out - used this to again claim the maternity hospital shelling was a hoax/committed by Ukraine Stories of rapes committed by Russian soldiers turned out to be all lies (?) Pushing stories produced in Russian media of Ukrainians complaining about being shelled, Ukrainian soldiers complaining of poor training not being allowed to leave - "Ukrainian soldiers are surrendering by the hundreds if not thousands" Thousands of soldiers in the Eastern pocket, Ukraine failing on the eve of the G7 so in order to return the attention of the world community to Ukraine had to stage a new provocation ` - Ukraine staged the strike on the shopping center. Russia targeted weapons warehouse full of long distance weapons which Ukraine was planning to use to attack cities in the east Russia really mad about the long distance weapons Ukraine has now - Ukraine is only using them against civilians of course - the west doesn't care about Ukraine attacking civilians in Donetsk/Luhansk ACTUALLY the shopping center was never hit, could see some goods still standing and it wasn't totally destroyed - note there were massive chunks totally destroyed - ACTUALLY the store burned down due to the fire from the weapon warehouse spreading Russia went on so long to make sure everyone understands the real truth Ukraine is the one holding onto their own grain, Russia isn't stopping them from shipping Russia has NEVER carried out strikes on peaceful civilian targets EVERYTHING they hit either had soldiers/weapons/mercs there OR was actually UKRAINE's fault by using air defense weapons "by supplying weapons you only prolong the agony of the criminal Kyiv regime" and the sooner this is realized the sooner Ukraine will come to the negotiating table Ukraine was turned into Anti-Russia by western countries and poses a threat to Russia and operations will continue until it no longer represents a threat India We've sent a bunch of humanitarian support 'gravely concerned' about reports of civilian deaths Both sides need to negotiate, doesn't call it a war, doesn't commit to which side actually killed people in Bucha India will work to help mitigate impact of 'conflict' on food security Keep global fertilizer stocks/fuel stocks stable please!!!! China Everyone should obey the UN charter, acknowledge 'legitimate security concerns of all countries' China has been pushing for peace, helping mitigate the humanitarian crisis It is unfortunate and regrettable that the conflict continues Supports direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, mediation w/ respect to grain exports Providing weapons, inflamed rhetoric = adding fuel to the fire NATO expanding is what sowed the seeds of this conflict, should teach the world a lesson "The cold war ended a long time ago", don't 'stoke block conflict' Must build European security framework in line with 'indivisible security' Is concerned by NATO painting 'other countries as a threat', but it is NATO that's caused problems in the world Don't look for imaginary enemies in the Asian/Pacific Essentially says that NATO should keep it's nose out of Asia/Pacific region, nor can a NATO-like alliance be allowed to spring up there UAE Pushing for ceasefire negotiations as if the conflict continues the global situation will worsen Also pushing for negotiation of safe passage of grain out of Ukrainian seaports [I missed a chunk of this one for work stuff] Gabon 'Welcomed the digital participation of president zelensky in the meeting' - thumb in Russia's eye condemned humanitarian violations Called for release of wheat, fertilizers in order to prevent global food instability "The world does not need another protracted conflict" but "war is not a state of lawlessness" Condemns any use of or threat of use of weapons with indiscriminate effects (Nukes, bioweapons) Peace good Norway Russia's war is a violation of international law, the UN charter, calls for Russia to stop immediately See: Albania, UK, US, France, etc specifically called out Belarus for facilitating Russia in the war Best way to protect civilians is for Russia to end this war UK Again The Russian representative can try to claim nothing is true and lie about Ukrainian provocations Russian forces are in Ukraine, there are NO Ukrainians in Russia - there is one agressor There will be accountability for these crimes Russia Again Replied to the UK accusing them of staging provocations/false flags themselves Estonia Speaking on behalf of Baltic countries Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia - understands why Ukraine is fighting Russia so hard Warmly welcomes Zelensky, commends him and the Ukrainian people Calls war 'colonialist and neoimperialist' based on terrible propaganda against their language and culture Russia is now seeking to achieve it's aims by terrorizing the civilian population no military justification for attacks of recent days, done in hopes of calls for 'peace at all costs' Calls it blackmail "Borders of a country are not to be changed by force" Russia resorting to irresponsible nuclear threats is unacceptable Russia is stealing grain from Ukraine and blocking export of more Allowing Russia to get away with this undercuts the entire existence of the UN Russia must withdraw completely from Ukraine, including Crimea Poland Russia is waging total war against Ukraine with a total lack of respect for international law calls out increased Russian shelling in the last few days Moscow is showing that they will crush Ukraine by any means necessary Must collect all evidence of Russia's crimes in Ukraine, and all who commit them should be brought to justice Ukraine has a full right to defend itself and expect international assistance in doing so Belarus should be considered complicit in all crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine Russia should withdraw completely from Ukraine Ukraine didn't speak, meeting over Yes, mostly worthless but I think they're interesting 
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Jun 28, 2022 22:37
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Ukraine is not wasting time with the candidacy status. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/842246.html
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Jun 28, 2022 22:48
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KitConstantine posted:Yes, mostly worthless but I think they're interesting I think so too and I'm honestly glad to see African countries calling out Russia. India, Brazil and China reactions were predictable, if a bit sad in regards to India and Brazil. Honestly also a bit surprised about Albania and glad to see it. I appreciate your posts on these, as I really can't stand listening to the Russian delegation.
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Jun 28, 2022 22:52
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C0N5T1P4T3D posted:Hopefully the Kurds can make painful for everyone involved in this agreement. Dear obvious probation dodging rereg, I remember when your forum celebrated that God Emperor Trump stabbed the Kurds in the back and let Erdogan invade because it meant end to American involvement abroad and was part of America First. I guess it's different when it's the libs doing it, and not the based MAGA (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 28, 2022 23:02
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khwarezm posted:I don't have to particularly like them to think that its an egregious anti-democratic and anti-leftist move to ban the Communist party. Like do you not find it noteworthy that they were banned while Svoboda and Right Sector were allowed to operate? I share your concern. There is definitely important work that needs to be done on this front once the war is over. A question though.. Do you believe that annexation by Russia will improve the state of Democracy in Ukraine? Is Putin and United Russia so popular that Russian's can't help but voting them into power for 20 years in a row without interruption?
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Jun 29, 2022 02:15
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Is the HIMARS in effect a guided missile launcher? I've always understood an MLRS to be a barrage oriented artillery platform for overwhelming and demoralizing a grid sector by unleashing massive firepower in a short period of time. The HIMARs appears to launch guided missiles with a smaller explosive payload than your usual tomahawk, SCUD, Tochka etc?
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Jun 29, 2022 02:26
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Xarn posted:Litre of vodka is where the article loses me. Custom uniform seems obvious and two sets of armor... sure why not. 5 meals? I mean look at the guy. But I can't imagine even Russia being so disfunctional that they would let their general just go through a large bottle of vodka every day while supposedly being in command. I'm late to the General Pavel party but that part was the least to phase me. Before she got pregnant my wife could knock that down easy and she's like 155cm and 100lbs sopping wet. I figured litre of vodka-tier liver was one of the free perks you get when you make an east slav at character creation, along with your 8 hour power squat and your track suit. That goes for her whole family too, fuckers can just slam down vodka like it's water.
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Jun 29, 2022 02:42
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Kraftwerk posted:Is the HIMARS in effect a guided missile launcher? Yes. Guided missile that flies ballistically but each round has a precision point of impact and fusing. Edit: here's a test shot without any warhead, should be timestamped to 3m4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nHUWT6eSE&t=184s mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 02:45
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.   
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Jun 29, 2022 02:49
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mlmp08 posted:Yes. Guided missile that flies ballistically but each round has a precision point of impact and fusing. “Six inches off … miss”.
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Jun 29, 2022 03:58
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orcane posted:Is Turkey still operating those S-400 systems? I know part of buying them was as a "gently caress you" to their NATO partners because Erdogan strong!, but I wonder how much they value them now. cinci zoo sniper posted:The best we know is they are. I reckon they may be having some second thoughts about it now.
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Jun 29, 2022 05:16
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nm
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Jun 29, 2022 05:36
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Nenonen posted:You really believed Erdogan, did you? Nenonen posted:You really are a fan of Erdogan. Nenonen posted:You sound like a real fan boy. Lol at the desperation here. Something really got you shook, huh  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 29, 2022 05:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:nm [question edited after response ready] Yes, they were delivered. I didn’t know this off the top of my head but I just looked it up by a web search (I use  ) and Reuters says it’s true. https://www.routers.com/article/us-turkey-security-usa-defense-russia/turkey-says-delivery-of-second-s-400-battery-complete-idUSKBN1W00AQ quote:Turkey says delivery of second S-400 battery complete
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Jun 29, 2022 05:38
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BigRoman posted:I share your concern. There is definitely important work that needs to be done on this front once the war is over. A question though.. Do you believe that annexation by Russia will improve the state of Democracy in Ukraine? Is Putin and United Russia so popular that Russian's can't help but voting them into power for 20 years in a row without interruption? Clearly I don't think any of that, but its neither here nor there to the fact that Ukraine does have a considerable problem with right wing extremism that it has a much softer attitude towards compared to the likes of the Communists. Like I don't think its even possible any more for Russia to conquer the entire country, the best they can pull off at this point is the easternmost quarter, and in doing so, if we go off of voting patterns and such, it would ironically make the remaining Ukrainian state more amenable towards hard nationalism than it was previously. Putin invading has essentially created the monster he claims to be there to slay, right wing nationalist groups like the Azov battalion almost certainly are going to see their star rise if they are able to present themselves as patriotic fighters against murderous foreign invaders, and the spectre of Russia and the obvious danger it has proven itself to be will only benefit nationalist groups further down the line who can rail against the foreign adversary that justifies its brutality by calling everybody in Ukraine Nazis.
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Jun 29, 2022 05:39
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khwarezm posted:Clearly I don't think any of that, but its neither here nor there to the fact that Ukraine does have a considerable problem with right wing extremism that it has a much softer attitude towards compared to the likes of the Communists. Like I don't think its even possible any more for Russia to conquer the entire country, the best they can pull off at this point is the easternmost quarter, and in doing so, if we go off of voting patterns and such, it would ironically make the remaining Ukrainian state more amenable towards hard nationalism than it was previously. Putin invading has essentially created the monster he claims to be there to slay, right wing nationalist groups like the Azov battalion almost certainly are going to see their star rise if they are able to present themselves as patriotic fighters against murderous foreign invaders, and the spectre of Russia and the obvious danger it has proven itself to be will only benefit nationalist groups further down the line who can rail against the foreign adversary that justifies its brutality by calling everybody in Ukraine Nazis. To build off of this idea a bit, there's a big parallel in the US invasion of Iraq. Before the US Invaded Iraq, there was some militant Islamism people there, but not many and they didn't have a lot of power. After the US invaded Iraq, there was a lot more, and they basically started running large chunks of the country. The invasion galvanized their extremist beliefs There is a weakness in this parallel though. The US was invading Iraq to punish a former client state and tried to legitimize it by installing a non-functioning, DOA democracy on top of an already entirely dysfunctional farce of a democracy. In the case of Ukraine, Russia is invading to install a blatantly anti-democratic government on top of flawed democracy that has been rapidly making changes and reworking itself. This next statement is even more goofy speculation: Nazis tend to not do great in democratic systems and try to topple them any chance they get. However, having a bunch of far-right nuts fighting to defend what is essentially a fledgling 'western' democracy might significantly dampen their recruitment and their will to do the typical idiot-Nazi poo poo after the war. Who knows. I just made all of that up. Chill Monster fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 06:13
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In non Iraq war comparison news: Explosions at military bases in Yasinuvata, Nova Kakhovka, and earlier today at Kadiivka and Perevalne https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/28-june-explosions-at-military-bases-in-yasinuvata-nova-kakhovka HIMARS doing work. More are needed. Ukraine should be given like 50 HIMARs and leopard tank. This is something that Russia cannot fathom and probably can't deal with. HIMARs payloads have a 1 meter accuracy. Russian arty has more like a 1000 meter accuracy. This is basically the same thing as in late Vietnam War when the US started dropping smart bombs on Hanoi and the NV AA troops couldn't deal with it like they'd dealt with the b-52. The war has changed. let's see what happens in a few weeks. I for one am hoping my theory about the truck pulled trains is proven correct via them getting popped by HIMARS for all to see. Time will tell tho. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 06:32
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mawarannahr posted:Yes, they were delivered. I didn’t know this off the top of my head but I just looked it up by a web search (I use Yes I recall them getting delivered as well, but Cinci's answer to the post above his/hers was a little ambiguous as to whether they're still getting used by Turkey, or if they're being traded to Ukraine in exchange for weapons from NATO and/or other sources. That was the intent of my question.
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Jun 29, 2022 06:33
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Cable Guy posted:Yes I recall them getting delivered as well, but Cinci's answer to the post above his/hers was a little ambiguous as to whether they're still getting used by Turkey, or if they're being traded to Ukraine in exchange for weapons from NATO and/or other sources. That was the intent of my question. I don’t know. I was responding to a question about whether they were delivered at all, which is something I was able to find out. Sorry!
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Jun 29, 2022 06:35
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edit: nvm
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Jun 29, 2022 07:02
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As of April 2022 Turkey has not activated its S-400.
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Jun 29, 2022 07:07
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