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Robot Style posted:It's better than what Lucas had in the rough draft of the script - originally the movie started with Leia and a Rebel strike team sneaking to Endor, and then just disappearing for the rest of the first act while Luke and Lando rescued Han. The Jabba's palace stuff also took up nearly half the script, so there was a lot of rushing to get people where they need to be for the back half of the movie. Like rather than giving himself up to Vader as a way to take the heat off his friends, Luke just randomly gets captured by the Empire as he's leaving Tatooine and taken to the next plot point. Yeah, but the rough draft also had some crazy poo poo in there that would have been fun. Like the Emperor's Throne Room being surrounded by a lake of lava. And the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda showing up during the final battle to help fight the Emperor. Fun stuff.
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Jun 29, 2022 14:30
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Robot Style posted:Lucas is like a PG Tarantino - lots of his work is just his own personal nostalgia remixes, but the source material is just obscure enough and there's enough original flavor to make everything come together in a satisfying way. Basebf555 posted:Lucas' artistic purity isn't the point. Regardless of how much his decision making was sometimes based on merchandizing and other non-artistic concerns, they were still decisions that were ultimately made by one man. When you get a behemoth corporation involved in those decisions everything inevitably gets so watered down that it becomes almost impossible to make anything that's actually interesting or different. 
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Jun 29, 2022 14:37
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The Sequel trilogy really operated on one principal tenet: gently caress the prequels, make stuff look like the original trilogy. Now its gone full circle and we are all the way back into the prequels with these new tv shows.
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Jun 29, 2022 14:59
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Horizon Burning posted:Yeah, the battle of endor is packed full of fantastic spaceship shots that still feel they haven't been topped There are a few space battles in the Clone Wars that I thought had really good, dynamic action, but I dont know that I'd say they are "better." It's hard for me to separate the shots themselves from the story, the stakes, the music, and so on, so topping ROTJ is a tall, tall order.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:11
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Rogue One's space battle is pretty loving good.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:14
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The main problem with ROTJ is basically the same one as The Search For Spock in Star Trek: it follows one of the best and most beloved films in the franchise. Almost any movie that had to follow The Wrath of Khan or The Empire Strikes Back is going to be seen as a letdown, whether its plot actually fails to live up to expectations or not.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:17
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Honestly Empire has the same problem as Jedi and is kind of a slog between the evacuation of Echo Base sequence at the beginning and the excellent Cloud City sequence at the end.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:21
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Regarding the Endor Ewok Ambush scene, I do think that there's one very important sequence in it where you see one of the Ewoks get killed and their friend cry over them. I think without that scene, it would have been saccharine as hell. The movie does take a moment to remind you that Ewoks are being brave and getting killed, this isn't a totally lopsided turkey shoot.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:25
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ROTJ is fine but everything outside of the Death Star scenes is pretty rote stuff. You don't get the little surprises of Yoda's identity or Lando's shifting allegiances. Whatever ambiguity exists (Luke getting closer to the Dark Side in Jabba's palace, Obi-Wan's bullshitting, the Ewoks being fuzzy cannibals) doesn't really do anything except as the lead-up to the very good throne room confrontation. Everything that's not about that scene is just remixing the more straightforwardly heroic parts of ANH.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:41
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I think it’s cool that we get to see everyone have one final adventure together on Endor. You can tell they try to do this in Rise of Skywalker but it feels like these characters barely even know each other.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:46
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It really is astounding that they created three new hero characters and then didn’t have two of them meet at all until the very end of the second movie
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Jun 29, 2022 15:50
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Alchenar posted:Nah the most important thing Lucas says is "This is a fairytale. You want everybody to live happily ever after and nothing bad happens to anybody" and he's right. If a fairytale is what you are telling. The child murdering genocidal maniac?
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Jun 29, 2022 15:50
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Calaveron posted:The child murdering genocidal maniac? That’s right. He took the scenic route to balancing the force
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Jun 29, 2022 15:52
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The REAL Goobusters posted:The Sequel trilogy really operated on one principal tenet: gently caress the prequels, make stuff look like the original trilogy. With one exception: make the lightsaber fights look like the prequels. Just about every significant fight was "Mustafar but..."
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Jun 29, 2022 16:17
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Mmmmmm I don’t know considering you literally see Han and Luke put on storm trooper gear and the storm troopers talk in the OT too like we know what droids sound. I mean I can understand as a kid you probably wouldn’t know but for real? Well there's definitely similarities between the droids and stormtroopers in the OT, and the PT made it more explicit. Children pick up on thematic stuff like that all the time even if they are technically inaccurate. For example myself and other posters have described from memory our initial assumption that Jabba's dancing girl was turned into one of the frogs in his bong.
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Jun 29, 2022 16:33
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moonmazed posted:it's a metal gear reference yuo loving philistine!!!!!! Abrams is definitely a fan of Kojima, but there's also another, more depressing reason for the red arm. In the original movies, part of the weathering on Threepio included giving him a silver leg, but like the "Stormtroopers are robots" thing, Abrams probably never noticed as a kid. So when it was his turn to make the movie, he wanted to reference the silver leg by swapping one of the character's limbs, but he also didn't want anyone to miss it like he had, so he stopped the movie dead by having the character turn to the camera and show it to the audience.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:06
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And then his old arm is back at the end of the movie!
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Jun 29, 2022 18:13
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Anyone making GBS threads on ROTJ didn't see it in the theater at age 8. Because if you did you know it's the best one. Here's why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JuHWuq0_e8 I sometimes think about how much of my life has been influenced by this 30 seconds of film. How many important decisions I've made correctly because I saw my hero, Luke loving Skywalker, Jedi Knight, win the whole loving war by refusing to be someone he didn't want to be even at great risk to all he held dear. Oh and heck why not, don't forget that just before this we get this, which by itself is the best thing in all of Star Wars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MnMA0TzGI I mean, bitch about Ewoks and Han being bored all you want, but that poo poo right there cannot be topped. For comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onRnL6MBunU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2LuRgzvgtI Anyway gently caress yeah, RoTJ is awesome, and IMO Empire wouldn't be as beloved if Jedi hadn't stuck the landing and paid off everything fans had been waiting for since Episode IV. Yub loving nub.
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Jun 29, 2022 18:23
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Zoran posted:And then his old arm is back at the end of the movie! That might have been a Rian Johnson change - there were a few things he asks Abrams for to help lead into The Last Jedi (such as having R2 go with Rey to find Luke instead of BB8, and not having a bunch of boulders randomly floating around Luke when she finds him), so it's possible he knew he didn't want Threepio to have a red arm in his movie, and asked Abrams to restore the gold arm for the last scene of the movie.
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Jun 29, 2022 18:24
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:The main problem with ROTJ is basically the same one as The Search For Spock in Star Trek: it follows one of the best and most beloved films in the franchise. Almost any movie that had to follow The Wrath of Khan or The Empire Strikes Back is going to be seen as a letdown, whether its plot actually fails to live up to expectations or not. ROTJ is a lot better than Search for Spock, if only because it does not completely undermine the message of the preceding film.
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Jun 29, 2022 18:36
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Robot Style posted:That might have been a Rian Johnson change - there were a few things he asks Abrams for to help lead into The Last Jedi (such as having R2 go with Rey to find Luke instead of BB8, and not having a bunch of boulders randomly floating around Luke when she finds him), so it's possible he knew he didn't want Threepio to have a red arm in his movie, and asked Abrams to restore the gold arm for the last scene of the movie. Why would Rian Johnson care about the red arm? Is C-3PO even in TLJ?
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Jun 29, 2022 19:43
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JonathonSpectre posted:Anyone making GBS threads on ROTJ didn't see it in the theater at age 8. Because if you did you know it's the best one. Here's why: Yes dude! Love this post
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Jun 29, 2022 19:49
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Gargamel Gibson posted:Why would Rian Johnson care about the red arm? Is C-3PO even in TLJ? He would have to be, right? But I can't think of a single scene
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Jun 29, 2022 19:52
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I think C3PO either haplessly backs poe's mutiny or haplessly backs leia's rejection of the mutiny, but I really can't remember which
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Jun 29, 2022 19:55
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JonathonSpectre posted:Anyone making GBS threads on ROTJ didn't see it in the theater at age 8. Because if you did you know it's the best one. Here's why: Luke was an absolute badass at the end of ROTJ. I do not understand why it was necessary to make him a grumpy old loser with a second, lamer redemption arc.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:22
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Just saw that there’s a directors commentary and documentary on the last Jedi on Disney+ I’m currently on season 4 of clone wars but I’m very interested in watching both of these.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:24
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Gargamel Gibson posted:Why would Rian Johnson care about the red arm? Is C-3PO even in TLJ? At the very least, he says, "Master Luke" to Luke at the end. And Poe tells him to shut up around the same time when talking about the caves, I think. But no, I don't see any reason Rian Johnson would care if he had a red arm. Or, yeah, I guess he may care, but he could have just changed it back with no explanation, like what happened at the end of TFA. So I don't think that's what happened at all.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:35
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Wolfsheim posted:He would have to be, right? But I can't think of a single scene His most memorable scene in episode 8 is when he and Luke share a look at the end as Luke leaves to face Kylo. This scene wasn't in the script, it was suggested by Mark Hamill
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Jun 29, 2022 20:39
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Wolfsheim posted:He would have to be, right? But I can't think of a single scene He sees Luke when he manifests at the base! Mark Hamill had to fight for that because in Rian's original script C-3PO really didn't show up. edit: Whoops!
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Jun 29, 2022 20:42
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bij posted:Luke was an absolute badass at the end of ROTJ. Because TLJ is a great movie about Star Wars, but it's not a very good Star Wars movie. In the real world, the idealistic youth who burned their Vietnam draft cards largely turned into disappointing boomer gently caress-you-got-mine losers. Ones who got mad at the prequels not being made for them. This is what happens to Luke, he becomes a burnt-out old disappointing loser in a reflection of real world generational events. It's a really interesting thing to do with a movie, especially one that works so well on a metatextual level, but the reason it got fans so up in arms is that it betrays what Lucas was talking about in that story conference quote—it's incongruent with the fairytale approach to storytelling, and it brings in too much real world grey-area into a series about the fundamental nature of good and evil. Luke defiantly states to the emperor that he'll "never" turn to the dark side, and we believed him. Then we left the movie theater, went out into the world, and saw our parents who swore they would never turn to the dark side vote for Bush and Trump and blame millennials for the problems of the world. It makes sense that when we went back into the movie theater to catch up with Luke that we'd want the escapist fairy tale fantasy of him holding true to his conviction. But I can't fault Johnson for seeing the writing on the wall about how hollow that would feel for so many children who grew up with the originals and saw all their heroes sell out. I'd personally rather have a great movie about Star Wars, but I can't really fault someone for wanting another iteration of their favorite fairy tale. Except for people who like Book of Boba Fett and Obi-Wan Kenobi, I can fault those people. Also people who like The Force Awakens and Solo. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 20:44
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That was a fantastic post and then you had to badmouth Solo. We're enemies now.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:47
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feedmyleg posted:Because TLJ is a great movie about Star Wars, but it's not a very good Star Wars movie. In the real world, the idealistic youth who burned their Vietnam draft cards largely turned into disappointing boomer gently caress-you-got-mine losers. Ones who got mad at the prequels not being made for them. This is what happens to Luke, he becomes a burnt-out old disappointing loser in a reflection of real world generational events. It's a really interesting thing to do with a movie, especially one that works so well on a metatextual level, but the reason it got fans so up in arms is that it betrays what Lucas was talking about in that story conference quote—it's incongruent with the fairytale approach to storytelling, and it brings in too much real world grey-area into a series about the fundamental nature of good and evil. My problem with this is, I don't think the movie really succeeds on these meta terms either when the conclusion of it all is so hard to read as anything but "well, nevertheless, love of star wars will save us". Maybe if it had ended about 40 minutes earlier than it actually does
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Jun 29, 2022 20:53
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You're not wrong. I still think it largely succeeds even if it doesn't stick the landing. I immediately became uninvested in the future of this particular story when Rey didn't take Kylo's hand.
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Jun 29, 2022 21:08
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What the sequels needed was a Don Quixote figure, named something like "Kylo Ren" or something.
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Jun 29, 2022 21:21
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JonathonSpectre posted:Anyone making GBS threads on ROTJ didn't see it in the theater at age 8. Because if you did you know it's the best one. Here's why: Okay but I said the throne room scene is the best in the entire franchise period and everything about it is astounding. It’s the other half that I just don’t dig And I DID see it in the theater at age 6…but it was the special editions 
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Jun 29, 2022 21:53
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There is plenty of media available if you want to watch acid casualty boomer losers be bitter about their stupid life. We had six movies about how the Jedi needed to change all wrapped up nicely but nope, time for cynicism and some bullshit about the MIC and whoops Luke has to learn his lesson again for a new generation. They dragged Luke to make a point that didn't need to be made in a Star Wars movie and robbed us of a chance for Luke to just be better than that. Star Wars is a fairy tale - we don't need The Princess Bride II featuring divorced Buttercup and Wesley - TLJ didn't contribute much more than that. Plus they hosed up space combat and turbolasers boo hiss.
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Jun 29, 2022 22:05
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feedmyleg posted:Because TLJ is a great movie about Star Wars, but it's not a very good Star Wars movie. In the real world, the idealistic youth who burned their Vietnam draft cards largely turned into disappointing boomer gently caress-you-got-mine losers. Ones who got mad at the prequels not being made for them. This is what happens to Luke, he becomes a burnt-out old disappointing loser in a reflection of real world generational events. It's a really interesting thing to do with a movie, especially one that works so well on a metatextual level, but the reason it got fans so up in arms is that it betrays what Lucas was talking about in that story conference quote—it's incongruent with the fairytale approach to storytelling, and it brings in too much real world grey-area into a series about the fundamental nature of good and evil. josh04 posted:That was a fantastic post and then you had to badmouth Solo. We're enemies now. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 22:15
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feedmyleg posted:Because TLJ is a great movie about Star Wars... Great post, very insightful. Be proud. Also guys sorry but Solo...just didn't work for a lot of people, and sadly I'm one of them.
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Jun 29, 2022 22:25
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I feel like the internet as a whole needs the real world to be baked into every piece of media and idk, I love TLJ so I don’t mind it there or even with TFA but it IS annoying when terminally online nerds get up in arms about people buying stormtrooper toys or stormtroopers at the Disney parks. I feel like these ideas entered the ST because that’s how the discourse was going. “These events in this fictional fairy tale are problematic when you compare them to what’s happening in real life” Which is why the first order are all morons and whiny babies like the right because they shouldn’t be loved or whatever but it makes them feel lame because they aren’t that scary of a threat.
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Jun 29, 2022 22:38
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Since Luke being MIA was kind of baked into the sequels from the beginning (it was in Lucas' outlines, and when Michael Arndt's script tried to include Luke, he always took over the movie that was supposed to be about the new characters so he just put him on an island at the end), I'm wondering if there's a better alternative that would allow for a more crowd-pleasing version of Luke that would also satisfyingly resolve his absence. TFA set up the "Luke abandoned the galaxy after Kylo killed all his students" thing, which seems to be the big hurdle. Episode 8 would either have to:
The first one is what we got. The last two would be doable, but could veer pretty close to Jedi's plot-bump smoothing "certain point of view" stuff. I guess the question in that case would be what was Luke's real reason for disappearing?
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Jun 29, 2022 22:53
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