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Off color hybrids would literally just add some greater measure of homogeneity to the format. Of course, with the advent of more and more viable 4 and 5 color options, this is sort of becoming moot over time. And if they really want to play off color value cards competitively, I've heard whispers on the wind that there is a format where that's possible.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:35
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Pretty sure the VS Live dudes do an "Add one color to your commander's color identity" video once every season or two. Just find some people to do that with.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:40
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Bust Rodd posted:yeah, people advocating for offcolor hybrids in their deck are on a fundamentally different plane of existence from me and i dont wanna play games with them. Same with "poison counters should be changed" babies. Poison counters should be reduced to 5 for lethal.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:42
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New Commander Rule: If someone isn't poised to win eight or nine turns into the game, all creatures gain infect.
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Jun 29, 2022 15:58
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Batterypowered7 posted:New Commander Rule: If someone isn't poised to win eight or nine turns into the game, all creatures gain infect. This could be a good Planechase mode. Phyrexian encroachment
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Jun 29, 2022 16:21
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I'm dumb... what's the alternative mana argument? That a card like Unmake can't be a mono white card?
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Jun 29, 2022 16:41
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Yes. The idea is that Mark Rosewater designed Hybrid mana in Lorwyn to function as an “Either/Or” card. It’s white OR it’s black. But in Commander we have this thing called Color identity. It’s one of the fundamental, format defining pillars of our format, and has been for even longer than we had words for it! Color Identity wasn’t even on the rules page until like 2014-2015, I think, just a paragraph explaining how colors worked in EDH. So the argument is that Mark Rosewater’s stated intention for the design of hybrid mana should overrule or supersede the way the cards mechanically function in your hand, GY, library, battlefield, and on the stack, as cards of that color. In essence, Hybrid cards would actually work DIFFERENTLY in Commander than they would in 60 card constructed. You can probably see why I don’t have that much patience for this sort of argument lol
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Jun 29, 2022 16:45
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Bust Rodd posted:Yes. The idea is that Mark Rosewater designed Hybrid mana in Lorwyn to function as an “Either/Or” card. It’s white OR it’s black.  Yeah I understand colour identity in commander, just confused by what that person is arguing I guess. So they, like, the person responding to Sheldon, WANTS the card to be able to be in a mono-white commander deck? Sorry for always asking these basic rear end questions, I'm going to be playing catch-up for a looooong time.
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Jun 29, 2022 16:50
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What's supposed to be the logic behind people wanting to change that? I'm not seeing why you would want to change it at all. Edit: OH I see, like you have a card that gave creatures extort, can use white or black mana to activate, but you're only running mono white. It wouldn't fit. I had that same gripe on why I couldn't use Elbrus, the Binding Blade on my mono white/equipment deck helmed with Nahiri. I was....at the time pretty salty I couldn't use something like that even though the cost to cast the thing was colorless. Jiro fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 16:51
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Yes, people want to be able to run W/B cards in a mono-B deck, or whatever, and Sheldon has been telling them “No” for like 15 years and they persist, probably because they go back to Hybrid mana every 7 years or so.
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Jun 29, 2022 16:52
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Johnny Truant posted:
Yeah, you've got it. It's one of the longest running rules change requests, but I think it's always been a minority position
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Jun 29, 2022 16:53
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Bust Rodd posted:Yes, people want to be able to run W/B cards in a mono-B deck, or whatever, and Sheldon has been telling them “No” for like 15 years and they persist, probably because they go back to Hybrid mana every 7 years or so. Tarnop posted:Yeah, you've got it. It's one of the longest running rules change requests, but I think it's always been a minority position  Yeah I mean I feel like that argument falls apart instantly because when you write out the dual mana it is "A or B" and if B isn't in the colour identity...? 
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Jun 29, 2022 16:55
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You’d think that, but you maybe haven’t met a Magic the Gathering player who thinks they’re right about something stupid before, and you’ll be in line for the gates of hell after the Rapture wipes us all away in a cloud of ash and behind me you’ll hear “but MaRo distinctly said on BlogAtog…!”
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Jun 29, 2022 17:00
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Eh, I completely disagree, Bust. I get why the current rules work they way they work for hybrid mana, but it's very unintuitive for newer players that aren't focused on rules technicality. You go to a new player and say - here's Commander. You have a commander, and you can only have stuff in your deck of that commander's colors. They say, cool, I have a green commander because my commander costs only green mana to cast, I will only put stuff in the deck for green mana. Then they add a hybrid mana card, assuming they can pay for it only in green, and get in trouble because it has other text on there. That's frustrating and confusing to new folks. (And yes, I fully understand the technical rule. That color identity is actually about the mana symbols on the card, and that commanders have color identity that includes any "symbol" on their card, not just in their mana cost, and likewise cards have an "identity' that includes any "symbol" on the card, not just in their cost, and this works for everything except the except the exception of extort which even though you have the "symbol" on the card of the other color, it's different because it's a reminder text for reasons. Remember how this is unintuitive and confusing for new players?)
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Jun 29, 2022 17:04
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If I have a mono green commander and I'm looking at cards to put in the deck, it feels pretty intuitive that I can't include cards where half the frame is one of the other 4 colours e: I also taught half of the players in my group how to play Magic and they have never been confused about the hybrid rule being the way it is. The only thing related to hybrid mana that they ever needed explaining was Extort not counting for colour identity Tarnop fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 17:06
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lol thanks for explaining, and sorry for kicking this hornets nest  Uh to change the topic - I'm thinking about trying to organize a kind of Commander 'tournament' I guess I would call it, where we would just be able to proxy literally any card, as long as it's legal. Basically a "if you had absolutely no restraints on budget and wanted to make your most powerful deck" kind of tournament.  Is there somewhere that I could read up on how a Commander tournament framework works? Has anybody else tried this, or have any comments/warnings/ominous portents for me?
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Jun 29, 2022 17:08
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  I’m sorry but if you look at these and don’t immediately understand them to be two color cards then I’m not sure how you really have what it takes to play Magic in the first place. The game gets much, much more complicated than this, IMO. I am actually comfortable sacrificing the new player onboarding experience in the margins for the overall health of the game and it’s existing playerbase. Being new at things means not understanding everything, and sometimes it means being wrong. That’s ok!
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Jun 29, 2022 17:11
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Don't hesitate to bring up whatever you'd like, as long as it's not 3 cmc mana rocks, 4 cmc ramp sorceries, and 6+ mana spells that don't immediately set you up for winning the game.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:11
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I put a craw wurm in every one of my mono-B decks.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:16
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Jiro posted:What's supposed to be the logic behind people wanting to change that? I'm not seeing why you would want to change it at all. You actually can run Extort in mono white because the Mana symbol is in the reminder text. Reminder text is not part of the color identity of the card. Edit: rules posted:903.4c Reminder text is ignored when determining a card’s color identity. See rule 207.2. Heath fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jun 29, 2022 |
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Jun 29, 2022 17:17
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Extort is the ultra outlier because it’s never been printed without reminder text but it’s also the only game rule that crosses this particular line, and there’s only like 5-6 playable extort cards so you don’t see it that often.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:19
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Heath posted:You actually can run Extort in mono white because the Mana symbol is in the reminder text. Reminder text is not part of the color identity of the card. Oh for fucks sake.............. I'm still pouty about not being able to sneak in a 13/13 demon in my white artifact deck since it's main form is a colorless equipment......... 
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Jun 29, 2022 17:27
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Johnny Truant posted:lol thanks for explaining, and sorry for kicking this hornets nest Yeah commander tournaments fire online and in person all the time. If you go on social media Monarch Media is a big US Commander tourney org and in Europe Tier 1 Con is the big commander event they ran last year and will do again next year. In general, 75 minute rounds are too short, 90 is the way to go, IMO, and make sure that there are clear expectations regarding prize pools and prize structures, and I would personally institute a “no whining about the banlist/proxies or your instantly disqualified” policy to be safe, lol.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:31
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah commander tournaments fire online and in person all the time. If you go on social media Monarch Media is a big US Commander tourney org and in Europe Tier 1 Con is the big commander event they ran last year and will do again next year. Tight! I think I should've specified a bit more, this won't be like a big tournament, it'll probably be like... 8 people lol. I should've put tournament in quotes. At most we'd have 12 people and that would be.. impressive, for the turnout I had for my New Capparty
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Jun 29, 2022 17:37
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Oh, uh, well if it’s only 8-12 people then you should just assign points based on players KO’d or something, because you won’t have enough participation for a finals pod otherwise. Send everyone in, have them accrue points based on a knockouts, top 4 scores in finals pod.
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Jun 29, 2022 17:39
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Bust Rodd posted:I am actually comfortable sacrificing the new player onboarding experience in the margins for the overall health of the game and it’s existing playerbase. Being new at things means not understanding everything, and sometimes it means being wrong. That’s ok! This is why combat damage should go on the stack
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Jun 29, 2022 17:40
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Bust Rodd posted:Extort is the ultra outlier because it’s never been printed without reminder text 
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Jun 29, 2022 17:42
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Bust Rodd posted:Oh, uh, well if it’s only 8-12 people then you should just assign points based on players KO’d or something, because you won’t have enough participation for a finals pod otherwise. Send everyone in, have them accrue points based on a knockouts, top 4 scores in finals pod. Excellent! Is there like, a standard point per KO kind of reference somewhere out there? And like, something that would help randomize the tables and matchups?
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Jun 29, 2022 17:45
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Bust Rodd posted:
Historically these are true, but now black can just exile creatures, and gain life has been in both white and green. Persist has been in both colors also. Modern design has blurred color boundaries a lot.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:32
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Johnny Truant posted:Excellent! Is there like, a standard point per KO kind of reference somewhere out there? And like, something that would help randomize the tables and matchups? I would recommend 1 point for Victory + 1 Point for each player killed. So combo-killing a table of 3 other players would net you 4 points. At the end of the pods you just calculate point totals. It’s imperfect and will lead to some wonky decisions but that is an inescapable aspect of tournament magic.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:42
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checkplease posted:Historically these are true, but now black can just exile creatures, and gain life has been in both white and green. Persist has been in both colors also. Modern design has blurred color boundaries a lot. I think they mean by the physical colors on the card, not what the effects are.
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Jun 29, 2022 20:45
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Oh that’s fair. Yeah colors are definitely mixed. But unmake was special for a while as just exile without any bad effects.
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Jun 29, 2022 21:05
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Bust Rodd posted:I would recommend 1 point for Victory + 1 Point for each player killed. Make it five player and that you have to attack the player to your left. Five player 
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Jun 29, 2022 21:31
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One thing my play group talked about at one point was having victory points, sort of Jyhad style, like 1 for eliminating a player, 1 for being the last player alive at the end, and 1 for "winning" the game. So if you Pact/thoracle you only get 1 victory point. Another idea is you get 1 VP when the player to your left is eliminated, which is very Jyhad, it does penalize certain kinds of kill decks, like if you're somehow earthquaking for 40. This doesn't really solve the combo issue though it just means you want to play a damage based combo where you can just kill players off 1 at a time to get the most vp, but at least those combos tend to be a bit more board intensive. If you build some goblin bombardment infinite combo then you net the most VPs.
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Jun 29, 2022 21:36
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Of course it’s this one, where it doesn’t matter because the drat card is already B/W. I am also one of the edge-case Extort players because I run Crypt Ghast in my mono-B reanimator.
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Jun 29, 2022 23:46
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Magnetic North posted:Make it five player and that you have to attack the player to your left. Five player Yesssssss
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Jun 30, 2022 00:30
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pseudanonymous posted:One thing my play group talked about at one point was having victory points, sort of Jyhad style, like 1 for eliminating a player, 1 for being the last player alive at the end, and 1 for "winning" the game. So if you Pact/thoracle you only get 1 victory point. Who wins the VP if my Kros deck goads an opponent into dealing lethal damage to another opponent?
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Jun 30, 2022 00:48
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Azza Bamboo posted:Who wins the VP if my Kros deck goads an opponent into dealing lethal damage to another opponent? We were basically talking about using Jyhad/V:tES rules so if your prey is eliminated you get the victory point no matter who does it.
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Jun 30, 2022 00:50
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I play Commander as Commander, it's a very fun format that I really enjoy. I also play Draft which is very fun too as the format it is. I also think people should make up more fun and dumb formats. My group has been entertaining a bunch of stupid ideas I've had. They aren't intended to be actually good, long lasting formats, but just fun. Here's two. Blind Commander So you know how Commander Legends let's you draft a Commander deck, but it's not quite a Commander deck as we know it? This is the dumbest solution. Basically I wanted an excuse to explore old sets I haven't played (I got into Magic recently) and came up with this as a fun way to open packs. Basically I am getting two (2!) Set Boxes. Each one a different set. I've done the maths and the idea is if players draft from Set Boosters from two sets (I'm going with Strixhaven and Kamgiawa because they seem to be mechanically nice together) you can definitely build a roughly 60 card Commander legal deck. Commander, singleton, etc. By using two sets and more boosters (I did the numbers and 5-6 boosters per player basically guarantees a legal deck if not good lol) you can build a full deck. The catch is you don't know what Commander you're using. Hence the extra boosters, because you'll probably pivot hard when a good Commander pops up. Now, is this efficient or smart? No. Was I gonna buy the cards anyway for fun? Yeah, so might as well make a one off game of it. The second format is: Hero Commander It's Commander. But instead of just a Commander you have a Commander, Background (in Commander colours unless Choose a Background), Class and either an Equipment or Instant/Sorcery (finessing this) with Equipment and Instant/Sorcery being C/UC and non-legendary. Basically a fun gimmick of building a D&D Hero in the Command Zone. Each element gets Commander tax if removed. That's about it. It's a fun and dumb gimmick but we can build it from cards we have, or proxy some up if needed. Play Commander as Commander, make up a new format for dumb stuff, just don't expect people to think it is good.
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Jun 30, 2022 06:25
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pseudanonymous posted:One thing my play group talked about at one point was having victory points, sort of Jyhad style, like 1 for eliminating a player, 1 for being the last player alive at the end, and 1 for "winning" the game. So if you Pact/thoracle you only get 1 victory point. If you get points for eliminating players, you end up with kill stealers sniping a point with a Lightning Bolt. If you give points for damage dealt, you end up with people giving out extra life to take away and farm points. The meanest decks wouldn't just get the maximum amount of points for winning, they would also deny their opponents the maximum amount of points in the process, to make sure it's 5-0-0-0 instead of 5-3-2-0.
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Jun 30, 2022 18:11
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