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fnox posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020) It's all the CIA managed to pull off because the Venezuelan military, intelligence and people are firmly behind the government. You see the succesful results of hard work and can only imagine incompetence from the other side.
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Jun 25, 2022 14:41
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's all the CIA managed to pull off because the Venezuelan military, intelligence and people are firmly behind the government. You see the succesful results of hard work and can only imagine incompetence from the other side. Oh yes their incredible, state of the art CIA operation. 2 boats filled to the brim with a total contingent of less than 60 people, an operation so loving scuffed the person responsible tweeted about it before it happened. Don't choke on that boot just yet, after all 81% of Venezuelans disapprove of Maduro's administration, 88% of Guaido's. Venezuelan's want change and what is in the way of that change is a bunch of bolibourgeoisie, which you defend, and every scumfuck criminal in the FANB, which you too blindly defend. fnox fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Jun 25, 2022 |
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Jun 25, 2022 15:26
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fnox posted:Oh yes their incredible, state of the art CIA operation. 2 boats filled to the brim with a total contingent of less than 60 people, an operation so loving scuffed the person responsible tweeted about it before it happened. Don't choke on that boot just yet, after all 81% of Venezuelans disapprove of Maduro's administration, 88% of Guaido's. Venezuelan's want change and what is in the way of that change is a bunch of bolibourgeoisie, which you defend, and every scumfuck criminal in the FANB, which you too blindly defend. Yes, when in Latin American history has a boatload of less than 100 hundred guerillas ever achieved anything?
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Jun 26, 2022 05:01
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So what made abortion illegal in Mexico? Or has it always been pro-life post-independence? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 26, 2022 05:17
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Grouchio posted:So what made abortion illegal in Mexico? Strong influence of catholicism which encourages less separation between church and state. Latin American countries in general were later than the US and Canada in legalizing abortion. They were late in allowing women to vote too.
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Jun 26, 2022 05:55
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America Inc. posted:Strong influence of catholicism which encourages less separation between church and state. Latin American countries in general were later than the US and Canada in legalizing abortion. They were late in allowing women to vote too. Pakistan and Bangladesh are interesting, I wonder if that was one of the major points of conflict when they were a union
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Jun 26, 2022 07:21
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yes, when in Latin American history has a boatload of less than 100 hundred guerillas ever achieved anything? What is this idiotic implication? Venezuela has one of the largest militaries in South America. El Porteñazo, El Carupanazo, 4F, the 27 November coup attempt, they all involved thousands of soldiers, tanks, even planes. You seemingly don’t see it as obvious, but civilians don’t have those, so when the military takes over it’s very hard to dislodge them, since they’ve got a disproportionate ability to kill any opposition. Bay of Piglets had a 0% chance of succeeding, to treat it as a serious coup attempt is laughable. It was so idiotic there was an AP article about it happening 3 days before it happened. You have no way of addressing the blatant systematic crimes that the FANB have committed without looking like a hypocrite, do you?
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Jun 26, 2022 10:11
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yes, Burkina Faso under Sankara. Mozambique under Samora Machel. Egypt under Nasser. It does seem lost on you that you are suggesting these examples of enlightened despots are a role model for Latin America, particularly since it already has a history littered with military governments and puppet/narco states. You think it's totally fine to turn a blind eye to Castro and Chavez suppressing all civil society and ruling with an iron fist, but Pinochet is unacceptable when he does the same thing?
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Jun 26, 2022 11:31
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fnox posted:Educate yourself. beyond parody (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 26, 2022 11:34
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's all the CIA managed to pull off because the Venezuelan military, intelligence and people are firmly behind the government. You see the succesful results of hard work and can only imagine incompetence from the other side. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Our 'fists' should form the very basis for the revolutionary armies and security forces we need to protect ourselves. Do you think you can loving stop an invasion, coup or colour revolution with witty placards? You're accusing the west/CIA of fomenting a color revolution when these dictatorships hold sham elections and send the police to crush any dissent like this guy; what do you think happened in Belarus, in Kazakhstan, and in Myanmar? Or all the way to Tiananmen Square? What makes you think Venezuela is any different? EDIT: Let me be more explicit: in Belarus, the Russian military stepped in to suppress widespread dissent in "Europe's last dictatorship": https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/04/belarus-lukashenko-protests-election-russia-putin-brutal-crackdown-weapons-ammunition-bypol/ They did the same in Kazakhstan: https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-59894266 Guess who supported the military junta's coup in Myanmar after fair legitimate elections were held on their transition to democracy: https://www.cfr.org/blog/chinas-support-myanmar-further-shows-world-dividing-autocracy-versus-democracy Yet here in Venezuela, you're seeing a victory of the "people" over Great Satan. I would suggest you talk to some real life Venezuelans refugees that are all across South America. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 11:38
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Cup Runneth Over posted:beyond parody Name a single other politician from Venezuela.
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Jun 26, 2022 11:48
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This is what upsets me about this thread, there’s never any sort of way to advance debate because it’s all stuck relitigating the loving Bay of Pigs. Developments from 2020 onwards like Maduro privatizing companies doesn’t matter because the aforementioned propaganda sources don’t talk about it. We have the same crowd regurgitating the same things into each other’s mouths, refusing to address anything and recurring to lovely snipes when confronted. The guy who posted about the riots in Ecuador went completely unnoticed, for example. The obnoxious Marxist Leninist larping by people who are stuck in the past has made this thread suck and it’s never been addressed.
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Jun 26, 2022 12:16
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fnox posted:This is what upsets me about this thread, there’s never any sort of way to advance debate because it’s all stuck relitigating the loving Bay of Pigs. Developments from 2020 onwards like Maduro privatizing companies doesn’t matter because the aforementioned propaganda sources don’t talk about it. We have the same crowd regurgitating the same things into each other’s mouths, refusing to address anything and recurring to lovely snipes when confronted. The guy who posted about the riots in Ecuador went completely unnoticed, for example. This is an forum-wide problem, because of a subforum that shall not be named has spill-over from their posters. The nihilism and historical materialism has been blatant with the growth of certain podcasts; activism is much easier when it's from the comforts of a Williamsburg apartment. Also posting is praxis. I was in El Salvador earlier this year during Bitcoin Week and boy was that some entertainment. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jun 26, 2022 |
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Jun 26, 2022 12:25
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fnox posted:Name a single other politician from Venezuela. other than who??? maduro or guaido? it's not even a complete thought
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Jun 26, 2022 12:40
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Cup Runneth Over posted:other than who??? maduro or guaido? it's not even a complete thought Do you have anything to add to the conversation?
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Jun 26, 2022 12:57
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Forgive me it's been a while since the bay of piglets, but wasn't it meant to be a bigger op that fell through. I'm sure I read the mercenaries were meant to be backed up by soldiers as they had conspired with members of the military to betray Maduro. Because it was a failure doesnt mean Venezuela shouldn't take precautions to defend themselves against coups. in fact there's probably an argument to be made that its failure is proof the security apparatus was needed. Hypothetical had Allende strengthened the military as a defender of socialism and the coup there had failed, I think we would have the same people arguing it as proof Allende didn't have to strengthen the security apparatus.
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Jun 26, 2022 14:16
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No it was always a fantasy concocted by Cliver Alcalá, former general in the army under Chavez. He got arrested by the loving DEA btw, I guess its not even worth mentioning how the heaviest blow to this whole operation was done by the US. In any case, the reason why this idea that the military in Venezuela is necessary to defend socialism falls apart in two counts. The first being, that the military is responsible for a lot, a LOT of crimes against the population that have gone largely unprosecuted by the Maduro government, and secondly, that the largest blow to socialism in Venezuela in the last years have been done by Maduro. Seriously can at least one of you look up why the Venezuelan economy “recovered”? You’re not even remotely going to question if there even is a socialist state if Maduro is pursuing neoliberal policies, such as dolarization and privatization to remain in power?
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Jun 26, 2022 15:36
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i fly airplanes posted:
 This I want details about.
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Jun 27, 2022 07:54
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fnox posted:Seriously can at least one of you look up why the Venezuelan economy “recovered”? You’re not even remotely going to question if there even is a socialist state if Maduro is pursuing neoliberal policies, such as dolarization and privatization to remain in power? GoutPatrol posted:
There were also offsite events at "Bitcoin Beach" (Playa El Zonte). The moment you land at the airport there were a lot of ads and messaging relating to BTC so it's a government directive state-wide. The problem is it became exceedingly obvious in El Salvador that even simple payments for things like coffee, food, etc. where just not very practical using BTC/blockchain or its finance derivatives. Much of El Salvador relies on cash, and for electronic payments, it would be credit card. So they had to find and convince skeptical merchants to onboard onto a BTC platform to sell things so the event could publish lists of BTC-friendly vendors. It was clear that it was more hassle than worth it for simple transactions. In any case, those are innocent times because Bukele has lost millions in public treasury money with this stupid gimmick.
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Jun 30, 2022 14:12
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Not to derail into BTC but how did anyone think using it to buy in physical shops is in any way feasible. It takes 5-15 minutes to confirm a BTC transfer, no shop could handle payments that take that long to complete.
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Jun 30, 2022 15:16
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Marenghi posted:Not to derail into BTC but how did anyone think using it to buy in physical shops is in any way feasible. Yes, it was never intended to be used for that, it was a proof of concept that was known by its creator to be completely unfeasible as an actual currency The real cryptocurrencies were supposed to build on that work and solve the problems with it. Turns out the problems are inherent.
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Jun 30, 2022 15:59
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Marenghi posted:Not to derail into BTC but how did anyone think using it to buy in physical shops is in any way feasible. It never was viable, the whole technology isn't viable. The people pushing it were just desperately trying to find problems for a solution, and Bitcoin being as abysmally slow as it is means that it has clear incentives for hoarding. How much money has El Salvador lost on their Bitcoin holdings already? Isn't it like 50 million dollars? Like this whole business with Nayib Bukele still pushing for crypto is just so loving wacky that it's hard to even wrap your head around it.
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Jun 30, 2022 16:01
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Marenghi posted:Not to derail into BTC but how did anyone think using it to buy in physical shops is in any way feasible. If they believe what they're saying they should be pawning their soon-to-be-worthless paper money off on the coffee merchants instead of buying coffee for a million dollars a cup or whatever they think that amount of bitcoin will be worth in the future
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Jun 30, 2022 18:07
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fnox posted:How much money has El Salvador lost on their Bitcoin holdings already? Isn't it like 50 million dollars? Like this whole business with Nayib Bukele still pushing for crypto is just so loving wacky that it's hard to even wrap your head around it. Bukele needs some way to launder his drug money
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Jun 30, 2022 21:42
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America Inc. posted:Bukele needs some way to launder his drug money There are far better ways than to literally just lose the drug money. Just copy the tried and tested Venezuelan way of starting infrastructure projects and just never finishing them because you’ve cashed all the money after the project has faded from the public’s consciousness. Do it enough times and no one is going to even bother following up. Like regardless of the shitshow of Lava Jato, the Odebrecht scandal is just very rarely talked about despite it being the largest money laundering scheme in the region’s history, all of it masked as infrastructure projects. I don’t think they finished a single one of them, at least not in Venezuela, you can still see the giant pilons of the unfinished Guarenas metro along the highway.
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Jun 30, 2022 22:18
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https://twitter.com/sosorinoco/status/1542914330064191489?s=21&t=v75dQvAi_Ep6z_bdqaGSKw Have you guys seen like a single news outlet talking about the Arco Minero? I’ve tried to follow these stories but there really isn’t a lot of coverage other than from NGOs. Half a million hectares of forest have been lost to gold mining projects around the Orinoco. It’s lead to mass murder and migrations of the native Yanomami.
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Jul 2, 2022 10:49
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America Inc. posted:Bukele needs some way to launder his drug money More likely ms13 needed a way to spend their laundered money.
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Jul 2, 2022 11:06
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fnox posted:https://twitter.com/sosorinoco/status/1542914330064191489?s=21&t=v75dQvAi_Ep6z_bdqaGSKw Who are SOSOrinoco? The few people whose names are associated with it publically on their social media are right wing activists from the US and Oslo (lol) whose other entries on their CV are things like Alliance for the family who proudly present their letters of marque from USAID and were working to promote traditional family values of a man and a woman as god intended. The last time a big "SOS environmental campaign" of south american expats in the US and Norway got traction, it was the coup mongers in Bolivia who used video of fascists rallies without the audio of the fascist speeches to claim to be big environmental protests.
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Jul 2, 2022 20:10
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Spice World War II posted:Who are SOSOrinoco? The few people whose names are associated with it publically on their social media are right wing activists from the US and Oslo (lol) whose other entries on their CV are things like Alliance for the family who proudly present their letters of marque from USAID and were working to promote traditional family values of a man and a woman as god intended. The last time a big "SOS environmental campaign" of south american expats in the US and Norway got traction, it was the coup mongers in Bolivia who used video of fascists rallies without the audio of the fascist speeches to claim to be big environmental protests. Oh Jesus loving Christ. Find a fact checker I’m not even gonna bother with this. You can find actual Yanomami activists on Twitter, I just picked one account on the feed. You can find corroborating info, you can find a whole host of other agencies and NGOs covering the same poo poo, you’re choosing ignorance because the truth is inconvenient. This insistence to write off every crime the Venezuelan government has committed as US propaganda is disgusting apologism.
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Jul 2, 2022 21:06
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fnox posted:Oh Jesus loving Christ. Yeah well I fact checked their organisation, they claim they have to work undercover, but they are soliciting donations in the US, which go to "V5Initiative", which you can google. Their board of directors is led by the daughter of the dude who fled Venezuela after being recorded on tape trying to organise a military coup in 2014. The contributors on their social media include people whose relatives were involved in the 2002! coup attempt against Chavez. All of this is just one google away. Wasn't it you who was melting down when someone posted a mintnews tweet which consisted of nothing but actual untouched US media covers? Maybe next time just post some of those actual Yanomami activists instead of these assholes who are trying to use an issue that is so close to your heart as a cover for their own bullshit agenda?
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Jul 2, 2022 21:52
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Spice World War II posted:Yeah well I fact checked their organisation, they claim they have to work undercover, but they are soliciting donations in the US, which go to "V5Initiative", which you can google. Their board of directors is led by the daughter of the dude who fled Venezuela after being recorded on tape trying to organise a military coup in 2014. The contributors on their social media include people whose relatives were involved in the 2002! coup attempt against Chavez. All of this is just one google away. Wasn't it you who was melting down when someone posted a mintnews tweet which consisted of nothing but actual untouched US media covers? So you didn’t bother to check whether the actual info is false? You just went and did a bunch of unsourced associations and assumed that nothing is happening in the Orinoco? The issue with bringing up specific Yanomami activists is, if you loving bothered to look up anything about the person I just posted, they keep getting killed, or otherwise threatened by the government. But hey, here’s Wataniba reporting the exact same thing. https://twitter.com/wataniba_ve/status/1542951219634704384?s=21&t=IvAFxVeFvekixYHsaPSIfA Who’s the source of that? OIPUS, Organización Indígena Uwottüja del Sipapo. Not their first activist to be killed even. Don’t like Wataniba? Here’s COICA, reporting the exact same thing. They’re a coordinator for multiple Amazon indigineous peoples organizations. https://twitter.com/coicaorg/status/1542899163159056384?s=21&t=IlgiWT6ydI9iv2744sCnYA So which organization represents Venezuelan tribes in the Amazon? ORPIA, which in turn contains OIPUS, but it’s a larger indigenous organization having representation from 20 other tribes. Here they are, saying the exact same thing. https://twitter.com/orpiaamazonasve/status/1543074881981632513?s=21&t=IlgiWT6ydI9iv2744sCnYA Can we move on? You can see evidence of deforestation from loving space. It’s imbecilic to deny it.
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Jul 2, 2022 22:43
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fnox posted:So you didn’t bother to check whether the actual info is false? You just went and did a bunch of unsourced associations and assumed that nothing is happening in the Orinoco? Hello I'm a leftist, committed to decolonization, and I'd just like to make the point that clearly the path to decolonization in the Latin American context involves *checks notes* killing Indigenous people and destroying the environment, but it's cool and good because at least the forces doing that are strictly committed to opposing the US in mainly a petulant, rather than substantive, sense. Now that I've introduced myself, may I condescend to you about the state of the country you were born in? Just kidding, I'm going to do it whether you like it or not! Sarcasm aside: I don't actually have much of a dog in this fight. But I can say this to those who claim to support the left: I've met a lot of Cubans who are strictly anti-Communist, but I've met a lot more, in Cuba, in Canada, in Spain, and in the US, who view the current situation in Cuba as a mixture of governmental corruption and US imperialism while still holding with the ideals of the Revolution. By contrast, I've never met a single Venezuelan who wishes anything more for Maduro than a short drop and a sudden stop, and even the Cuban communist true believers I've talked to came back more than slightly disillusioned by the state of Venezuela. There are worthy concerns about the involvement of the USA in who might be positioned to replace Maduro, of course, but it does not serve the leftist movement in Latin America or anywhere else to pretend that Maduro is some wonderful, beautiful freedom fighter, because he isn't.
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Jul 2, 2022 23:03
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That SOSOrinoco is so nakedly an American op. The website itself is fairly bare and lacks any names due to its anonymous nature, but the donate link leads to V5initative which the blind could see their purpose. Their philosophy is defending traditional family values, democracy, freedom and entrepreneurship. They've produced teaching materials for children in Cuba and Africa, and focused mostly on Cuba since the 90s until 2017 when they changed focus to Venuezula. Can't vouch for the info they are presenting, but my gut reaction is to critical examine claims pushed by the CIA
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Jul 2, 2022 23:39
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You can’t vouch for the info being presented, because I just showed it is legit from 3 more sources, and it would imply you saying something bad about Venezuela. Aquí no se habla mal de Maduro.
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Jul 2, 2022 23:45
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Indeed you should critically examine the information anyone is pushing, because everyone has an agenda. This does not imply that you should reject their reports out of hand. Now, I think if you really want to bring it to the neoliberal world order, you could point out that they, as well, and to an equal or greater degree, also have Indigenous leaders killed when they oppose things they want. God knows Latin America is full of that poo poo and we can't ignore it! But I can say that Maduro is no great hero, he's simply followed the path of most governments strongly opposed to the US and that path is to commit the same offenses but for their own benefit, plus a soupcon of repression because otherwise the CIA will coup you. Castro, though he did some bad poo poo, was better; even Chavez was better. Morales is better. AMLO, frankly, has not sufficiently addressed domestic concerns, so I'm hard pressed to say he's doing an acceptable job, but he's not the worst. There is a path between being a US stooge and being a repressive, murderous fuckup.
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Jul 2, 2022 23:52
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I can't vouch for it cause this is the first I heard about it, but I will read those other sources seriously and with an open mind. I just found it bit obvious there was something off about SOSOrinco, their about page is name dropping FARC and China as bad actors in the mining operation which give off a red scare vibe.
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Jul 3, 2022 00:00
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fnox posted:You can’t vouch for the info being presented, because I just showed it is legit from 3 more sources, and it would imply you saying something bad about Venezuela. Aquí no se habla mal de Maduro. You know the difference between SOSOrinoco and your other sources? SOSOrinoco outright claims that the problem with the "extractivist" policies are uniquely a thing of the "Chavez and Maduro narcostate". The other sources not only do not claim that, but are actually talking about indigenous activism across all the countries around the amazon, regardless of the political leanings of their governments. Is what happened unequivocally bad? Yes. There, I said Maduro bad. On the other hand, if you literally don't see a problem posting just "the first source you find" which only has comically bad breitbart style articles on their whole page and is staffed by several generations of Sabine Mengele-Eichmann's who have been trying to coup the Venezuelan government since loving 2002, you're either not very good in your advocacy or one might come to think you might not be posting from a position of good faith
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Jul 3, 2022 00:31
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Spice World War II posted:if you literally don't see a problem posting just "the first source you find" which only has comically bad breitbart style articles on their whole page and is staffed by several generations of Sabine Mengele-Eichmann's who have been trying to coup the Venezuelan government since loving 2002, you're either not very good in your advocacy or one might come to think you might not be posting from a position of good faith The extent of which you engaged with the topic was this Spice World War II posted:Is what happened unequivocally bad? Yes. There, I said Maduro bad. On the other hand, But I'm posting in bad faith? You're intentionally stifling debate over a source even when you agree with the findings. Here's the issue, I couldn't pick a more mainstream media source because they're not covering this, and I normally prefer to post the English speaking ones in this thread as opposed to the Spanish language sources I read once I find something because that gives even more of an excuse for people to not engage with it. I did actually go through Twitter to validate that the info they were putting out was in fact true, I do that every time. The info was provably legit, so I posted it. Marenghi posted:their about page is name dropping FARC and China as bad actors in the mining operation which give off a red scare vibe. Spice World War II posted:You know the difference between SOSOrinoco and your other sources? SOSOrinoco outright claims that the problem with the "extractivist" policies are uniquely a thing of the "Chavez and Maduro narcostate". The second problem however, is this. You guys respond much better to keywords and phrases. The nuance of any situation can be very easily discarded if you can find your Sabine Mengele-Eichmann to then portray it as a CIA op. It gives you a free pass to ignore it, despite how "extractivist" is exactly how you would describe the economy of Venezuela for the last 80 years or so and exactly how you would describe the private concessions granted in the Arco Minero (comprising 12% of Venezuelan territory, most of it in the Venezuelan Amazon), how Chavez indeed signed a deal with the Chinese government to run the Las Cristinas gold mine after originally nationalizing it, how there's plenty of evidence of the ELN and FARC dissidents operating illegal mines in the region, how Yankuang Group, a state owned enterprise of China got some of the first concessions for the Arco Minero, how the ELN has been blamed for at least one of the many massacres that occurred in Tumeremo, and so on. You're trying to portray this as something the right wing in America is doing to deny the progress of socialism in Latin America, when any leftist with eyes stands against the Arco Minero, and has since its inception. It's only a couple idiots in this forum who seem to insistently jump on the defence of Maduro even as he literally this week declared the area surrounding the Orinoco a Special Economic Zone with relaxed customs regulations and tax breaks to attract foreign investors. This is already noticeably different from the model which exists in China, as unlike those in China, the areas marked to be Special Economic Zones contain primarily resources to extract, such as oil. It's perhaps no wonder that Maduro is facing opposition from the Communist Party of Venezuela. As for evidence of Maduro running a narco state, just look up Cliver Alcalá. To keep it relevant to the topic, look up what the Pemon tribe thought of him when he was chief of the Strategic Defense Region that includes the states of Amazonas and Bolivar. Then you can connect the dots with what happened later on in 2018. fnox fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 11:28
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PT6A posted:Castro, though he did some bad poo poo, was better; even Chavez was better. Morales is better. AMLO, frankly, has not sufficiently addressed domestic concerns, so I'm hard pressed to say he's doing an acceptable job, but he's not the worst. There is a path between being a US stooge and being a repressive, murderous fuckup. That's the thing with populists: you get either enlightened despots or megalomaniacs. And if they manage to stick around long enough, they get to whitewash their record. Chavez, Morales, all had issues with just wanting to stay in power and entrench their rule and change state institutions meant to act as a balance and counteract that. Castro, having taken Cuba via revolution, did not need to. But Cuban history is filled with examples of offenses like their atrocious gay rights record, only to have it be pinkwashed in recent history with Mariela Castro, becoming a wedge issue to confuse the left. EDIT: Let's not forget AMLO here: cancelling CDMX's new airport half way through construction, to build his own airport on the outskirts of town that not a single commercial airline seriously uses.
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Jul 6, 2022 01:02
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Spice World War II posted:or one might come to think you might not be posting from a position of good faith Considering he has actually lived in Venezuela, compared to most posters in this chat, and has been more than transparent about his politics, I'd be less concerned about readers with his "position of good faith" than many of the drive-by posters that this thread attracts who simply mouth off about anti-imperialism and quote Grayzone News.
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Jul 6, 2022 01:09
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