|
Fellblade posted:I don’t think the problem is that it’s not historical, the argument is it’s contradictory to the ‘goal’ of the game. yeah, exactly. once you start requiring "players" to ignore the incentives of the game, things start getting weird. it's not ahistorical to have peaceful annexation or unification, but it fits awkwardly into a game where someone, player or AI, is going to be playing an easily-annexed minor
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 13:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 22:39 |
|
|
Even as a player, does it make sense for you to fight a war of independence you know you have no chance of winning? To send your armies and soldier pops off to be murdered by a superior enemy? To let the armies of an invader march across your homeland, spreading devastation everywhere they go and worsening your people's lives for years if not decades? Is that a fight worth fighting? Or should you acknowledge that you already lost when nobody came to your aid during the diplomatic phase?
Takanago fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jun 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 14:15
|
|
|
Fellblade posted:I don’t think the problem is that it’s not historical, the argument is it’s contradictory to the ‘goal’ of the game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 14:26
|
|
|
I want to know what this goal is and how it contradicts it
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 14:29
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I want to know what this goal is and how it contradicts it To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, to hear the lamentation of their women, and to build the longest railroad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 14:33
|
|
|
Isn't it to crash the economy by having too many clipper ship factories?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 14:34
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I want to know what this goal is and how it contradicts it every other goal you might have in the game is premised on the ability to continue playing it
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1542538954481745921
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:08
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:every other goal you might have in the game is premised on the ability to continue playing it you're not supposed to actually let them annex you lol
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:11
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1542538954481745921 I find it funny that they focused on Egalitarian goals for this Dev Diary, when most of Paradox's Reddit community is memeing about how racist/tyrannical/genocidal they all are. I can't wait for the scifi mods when this game comes out!
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:11
|
|
|
yeti friend posted:you're not supposed to actually let them annex you lol Yeah I'm not sure why this is an issue, you can just refuse. You might lose but nothing is going to force you to give up without a fight. If the AI gives up without a fight, that's also not a problem, because the AI is not supposed to be playing to "win". They're there as supporting cast.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
The worst part of Civilization for me was the way the AI civs were all playing to "win", rather than acting like actual countries. It's one of the biggest things that really drove me to Paradox grand strategy games.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:34
|
|
|
yeti friend posted:you're not supposed to actually let them annex you lol but they're making systems that really only make sense in that they convince AI players to let themselves be annexed
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:39
|
|
|
I really hope this is refined into a baseline offering for PDS games going forward. I often find myself really interested in learning the fiddly mechanics and systems but when it comes time to do anything interesting I am completely devoid of creativity, so I kind of just play and tinker around aimlessly. I’d love it if I could choose an objective at the start and be lightly guided that way as I play.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:41
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:but they're making systems that really only make sense in that they convince AI players to let themselves be annexed yes? is this supposed to be a problem? AIs will also annex other AIs so it's not like it's a player-only benefit. minors in every paradox game eventually get subsumed unless they have a mechanic protecting them from it or they are played by a player and quickly become not-a-minor
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:42
|
|
|
Maybe players could get the option of tag switching to their new overlord if they give in to annexation? It's not quite the same as the reality of subjugation, but this way instead of the decision being a no-brainer, you'd have to choose between resisting and maintaining your identity or becoming part of something bigger. Also, the journal and objectives systems together seem like a great substitute for focus trees in terms of storytelling potential.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 17:56
|
|
|
i will make a system of alliances so vast no one will be able to annex anyone 
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:00
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah I'm not sure why this is an issue, you can just refuse. You might lose but nothing is going to force you to give up without a fight. If the AI gives up without a fight, that's also not a problem, because the AI is not supposed to be playing to "win". They're there as supporting cast. i don't think that's necessarily a given in every case. but it seems to be what vicky 3 is angling for, which is fine if they call it out as such. but some folks like competing with AI vs. just playing in a sandbox e: that said i think caring about this is dumb lol
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:02
|
|
|
I mean I sincerely doubt a country that actually has a chance to resist you is going to let itself be annexed instead. Realistically the ones that will do that are ones that if you wanted you could force annex pretty easily
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:12
|
|
|
The 3 objectives also happen to focus on a different core aspect of gameplay so they can be viewed as extensions of the tutorial. Hegemony is all about foreign diplomacy and war, Economic dominance about making number go up, and egalitarian society about internal politics. If it works well it's pretty slick
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:17
|
|
|
I don't think it's really an issue for the majority of players, especially not nerds who play enough to post in here, it's a 'problem' for designers. Anecdotally from a few people I've introduced to various PDX titles, being a new player and getting in to a situation where you can be diplo-annexed often comes along as either a big surprise game over or by the time you get notified it's going to happen it's far too late, game over. A large part of that is because the design previously seems to have been done assuming the player is the one doing the annexing, so it doesn't matter, but from the perspective of the player being annexed it is a bad gameplay experience because you can't do poo poo about it most of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:36
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:i don't think that's necessarily a given in every case. but it seems to be what vicky 3 is angling for, which is fine if they call it out as such. but some folks like competing with AI vs. just playing in a sandbox You're supposed to be competing with AI peers, not some random minor who can't resist you anyway. That's kind of the geopolitical theme of the period, that you can do whatever you want within your backyard unless someone as powerful as you decides to interfere. I could see the issue if France lets Germany diplo-annex them for no reason. I'm not really calling you out, just stating that having weak AI nations submit to stronger neighbors isn't contradictory to a competitive setting/game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 18:55
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:but they're making systems that really only make sense in that they convince AI players to let themselves be annexed
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:25
|
|
|
Though if you go into the game expecting to get rolled by some German minor state….yeah you probably aren’t going to get that
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:26
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Have you played a paradox game before? I'm not trying to be inflammatory but like... thats the point of the AI. generally they do not allow themselves to be annexed out of the game, and the rare occasions where it's been possible (like in EU4) it's been problematic! CharlestheHammer posted:Though if you go into the game expecting to get rolled by some German minor state….yeah you probably aren’t going to get that good thing nobody's talking about that
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:38
|
|
|
Yes they are. There is literally nothing else it could be. Do you think a medium or large state will be annexed diplomatically with no fight beforehand?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:39
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:generally they do not allow themselves to be annexed out of the game, and the rare occasions where it's been possible (like in EU4) it's been problematic!
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:43
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:generally they do not allow themselves to be annexed out of the game, and the rare occasions where it's been possible (like in EU4) it's been problematic! have you ever played victoria 2
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:52
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:have you ever played victoria 2 Or EUIV, or HOI4, or Imperator...
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Yes they do, its not rare at all, and how is it "problematic"? They are games modeled on real situations that PDX codes into the games because there is historical precedent. eu4's PUs are admittedly too general of a system that causes some deeply ahistorical nonsense like inheriting the entirety of france and nobody giving a poo poo. yeah, yeah, hapsburgs and spain - that was effectively a PU that wasn't integrated and was deliberately dissolved because it was impossible to manage without a highly competent monarch but that's really the only situation in any paradox game i can think of where you can peacefully annex tags that really shouldn't submit to peaceful annexation
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:have you ever played victoria 2 victoria 2 is famously a pretty jank game eu4's PUs are a good point of comparison for a more recent game
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 23:51
|
|
|
You have to put so much work and a crazy amount of luck for a PU to really do anything saying they matter as a negative is insane
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 23:52
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:You have to put so much work and a crazy amount of luck for a PU to really do anything saying they matter as a negative is insane yeah leaving something like that up to a bunch of rng and poorly-shown systems is insane. thank you for backing me up, worse CTH
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2022 23:54
|
|
|
two of the worst posters you know going at it? victoria 3 is already delivering the goods
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 00:50
|
|
|
One thing I’ve learned reading paradox threads is never ever listen to player suggestions. They are universally terrible and have no interest in actually making a game anyone would want to play
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 01:16
|
|
|
There should be a Sunset Invasion-style DLC featuring 19th century Martians.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:yeah, exactly. once you start requiring "players" to ignore the incentives of the game, things start getting weird. it's not ahistorical to have peaceful annexation or unification, but it fits awkwardly into a game where someone, player or AI, is going to be playing an easily-annexed minor You are a gigantic loving moron, you are describing something that isn't a problem.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 02:24
|
|
|
Randallteal posted:There should be a Sunset Invasion-style DLC featuring 19th century Martians. An HG Wells / Jules Verne mod would be cool. Just throw in every sci fi trope from that era
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 02:28
|
|
|
Randallteal posted:There should be a Sunset Invasion-style DLC featuring 19th century Martians. Finally, I can do a megacampaign without touching HoI4
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 22:39 |
|
|
Fellblade posted:I don't think it's really an issue for the majority of players, especially not nerds who play enough to post in here, it's a 'problem' for designers. are you having them start as vassals in eu4 or what? being diplo annexed is not a common thing in pds games at all. it's only possible in like 2 of them anyway
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2022 04:38
|
|