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Why are Parley and Eglamore, two etherically enhanced people, not at the meeting, Annie? The meeting that only non-etheric individuals were invited to? The meeting where it's implied the Court is laying out their plans to Just Go Away and leave the overtly etheric stuff behind? That meeting?
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Jul 1, 2022 09:09
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I mean it's pretty obvious why they aren't going and Annie is dumb for letting that one go over her head, but I think it is surprising that they haven't at least caught word of it since most everyone seems to know both people who are and aren't going and are speculating on what exactly it is all about.
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Jul 1, 2022 09:32
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Nothing matters things just happen
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Jul 1, 2022 10:08
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Captain Oblivious posted:Nothing matters things just happen
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Jul 1, 2022 10:11
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isasphere posted:I don't trust Tom's judgement anymore on many things, as an author, but I still see parts of the story I fell in love with in the first place, and they remain, at least from outward appearances, sincere attempts at telling a story for the sake of the story, not at playing weird gotcha games with the reader over and over. Yeah the thing that killed Homestuck was that Hussie really started to hate his readers. Tom didn't do that, but I do think he started taking their opinions into account when he hadn't done so before. Nobody should ever listen to fans, honestly. Make your weird messy thing with whatever bullshit is in your head and maybe you can turn a buck or make somebody feel something, but whatever you do, don't read the comments.
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Jul 1, 2022 10:53
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worm girl posted:Yeah the thing that killed Homestuck was that Hussie really started to hate his readers. Tom didn't do that, but I do think he started taking their opinions into account when he hadn't done so before. *this doesn't mean taking their stated complaints at face value, you have to try and track down what they're actually annoyed at because people are terrible at this So like we've complained about a lot of things in this thread but the running theme for Tony boils down to "he has not earned the forgiveness/acceptance/redemption the characters and readers seem to be supposed to be feeling for him". What the actual problem is is heavily dependent on where authorial intent is actually failing; are the readers not supposed to be forgiving Tony? Is Annie's acceptance supposed to be read as delusional and unhealthy and Kat's forgiveness as an immature betrayal? Are there redemptive actions that are not being portrayed clearly enough? Or are we reading the narrative correctly and there's a fundamental disconnect between the thread and Tom's opinions on parental fealty and individual culpability? Adding or altering scenes to better clarify these things based on reader feedback is not being a bad creative; it's one of the reasons editors exist. One of the biggest reasons I've thrown up my hands over the Tony arc is that Annie's camera monologue seems like that kind of reader feedback response, and it seems to be saying the last one. Which sucks for me in the same way as, say, Kat turning to the camera to explain why the court demonstrates how the legacy admission system is objectively superior to equal access government funded education. But it's not because Tom shouldn't have made that clear, it's because I now know that it's not a story I will ever be satisfied with. Not knowing this and tying myself in knots trying to square a circle would be worse though. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 11:52
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I might be holding onto a shred of hope on this, but I took Annie mentioning the meeting as a way to bring it to their attention that it was happening. Kind of like in the same way all the kids knew that the meeting was happening because they all talked to each other, maybe Annie assumed that Eglamore and Parley had friends in the know.
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Jul 1, 2022 12:03
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I like that they're literally fast travelling between plot beats because nothing is happening in a way that makes sense organically.
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Jul 1, 2022 13:31
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Tony should have been with the two Annie's in Zimmy's nightmare before they recombined. Could have forced a conversation about Surma, his weird favouritism between the two Annie's etc, just bypass his anxiety hang ups by warping reality.
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Jul 1, 2022 14:50
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DrSnakeLaser posted:Tony should have been with the two Annie's in Zimmy's nightmare before they recombined. Could have forced a conversation about Surma, his weird favouritism between the two Annie's etc, just bypass his anxiety hang ups by warping reality. Y'know, using Zimmy's mindfuck powers to "trick" Tony into talking to Annie seems like such an obvious solution that I'm surprised it wasn't the solution. Have him see her as Surma or something and have him start talking, Annie doesn't look the gift horse in the mouth and engages in the conversation, he admits how remorseful he feels about Annie, then the illusion fades and he realizes it's been Annie this whole time. It wouldn't immediately solve his problems talking to her, but could put a crucial first crack in the wall.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:21
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honestly it's kind of funny that the court intends to just leave the entire lineage of people who have the best skills and training to protect them behind. like regardless of what they have planned it's amazing they don't think that will bite them in the rear end later.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:29
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CYBEReris posted:honestly it's kind of funny that the court intends to just leave the entire lineage of people who have the best skills and training to protect them behind. like regardless of what they have planned it's amazing they don't think that will bite them in the rear end later. I totally agree but I am assuming their reasoning is "if we leave all the magic stuff and magic people behind and run away, there won't be any magic stuff to threaten us anymore so we can just do whatever in peace." I'm not saying it isn't stupid. There Bias Two posted:I like that they're literally fast travelling between plot beats because nothing is happening in a way that makes sense organically. This reminded me of "why didn't all this just happen immediately after the kids made a half assed attempt to catch Loup". Destroying Reynard's never used old body would have even seemed like more of a direct immediate retaliation, and it would have made a little more sense as a knee jerk "you tried to screw me? oh yeah, well, screw you then!" first thing he thought of. The meeting invite could have come before, or after, or whatever, instead of going back to learn about that just to teleport right back to where they previously were dealing with the same stuff. If Parley and Eglamore weren't supposed to be in on the rogue Annie, Kat, and friends plan to capture Loup but still are somehow relevant to witnessing the seemingly pointless body destruction, then moving on to finding out about the half secret meeting, they could have always noticed some commotion in the distance while on patrol or whatever and did the teleport thing to show up half way through, basically at exactly the time they showed up anyways, then continuing on much more organically.
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Jul 1, 2022 18:15
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Twenty Four posted:I totally agree but I am assuming their reasoning is "if we leave all the magic stuff and magic people behind and run away, there won't be any magic stuff to threaten us anymore so we can just do whatever in peace." Which would be a pretty solid foil if he'd been that from the beginning but it doesn't mesh with everything else.
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Jul 1, 2022 18:43
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I mean sure and he could also just say that in the same continuous scene, and it would still flow better. I feel like Loup already had his mind made up about his feelings about Reynard that you mentioned above, and it was well enough established, without him needing a time out alone offscreen to stew about them.
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Jul 1, 2022 18:55
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Cavatica posted:I might be holding onto a shred of hope on this, but I took Annie mentioning the meeting as a way to bring it to their attention that it was happening. Kind of like in the same way all the kids knew that the meeting was happening because they all talked to each other, maybe Annie assumed that Eglamore and Parley had friends in the know. Parley's mis-jumped before when distracted as it was happening, right?
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Jul 1, 2022 23:07
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Man, I just caught up on the past month or so of comics, and this series has really fallen apart, huh? The weird, bland exposition about simple concepts, the way no event leads naturally into another, the bizarre thing about Rey losing his body? I totally believe the theory that Tom just ran out of planned story arcs and is writing this whole thing page by page now. It feels like this chapter could have ended like three times already, but it's inexplicably still going. Ever since the big confrontation with Loup, it really doesn't seem like Annie and Kat are the protagonists anymore. We're always seeing things through other characters, and when we finally got back to them in these recent pages... they're like completely different people. It's totally bizarre. Also, it's very funny that the last retrospective Tom did, like six months ago, was the chapter right before The Mind Cage.
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Jul 3, 2022 22:51
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no listen you just have to not read the comic for even longer and then it'll all make sense in an even bigger chunk. you gotta believe me
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Jul 3, 2022 23:10
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Some of the strips I had trouble with on first pass were definitely more palatable on reread, but most of them have just been... bad, especially lately. You know, maybe Tom got tired of getting yelled at for Tony and said "you guys think you're so good at writing, do it yourself" and has been basing the writing entirely off random comments/forumposts/fanfiction. Once he reveals this fact, it'll be a powerful statement on how you should trust a creator to know what they're doing with their material.
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Jul 4, 2022 00:48
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Tiny Myers posted:Some of the strips I had trouble with on first pass were definitely more palatable on reread, but most of them have just been... bad, especially lately. It's very hard to guess what an author is thinking but I think you're right that it does seem like he is frustrated over the response to Tony. That chapter with Annie speaking directly into the camera felt like he was throwing up his hands and saying, hey guys this is what you were meant to take away from all this, okay? Then he just dropped that whole plot as if it was settled and moved on. I get that Tony/Annie's relationship was based partially on Tom's experiences with his dad (from what Tom has said) and so it's probably not a good feeling to have people react negatively to something so personal to him. But you can't control how people react to your stuff and I don't think it's made his comic better for Tom to try to do so.
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Jul 4, 2022 02:55
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This has not been good to read. The art choices have even been questionable at best. Currently waiting for Gunnerkrigg to pick itself back up when Tom is able to do so.
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Jul 4, 2022 05:23
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It sucks thinking about how if it turns out to be something like "he's tired of making this comic" or "he could use a break to recuperate/plan further ahead/write more script" then he still can't really stop. It's just not feasible in today's conditions if you have art, especially a single comic, as a fulltime job. Like what are you gonna do if you're surviving off your Patreon for your webcomic, especially when Google AdSense hosed him over? You can't just stop doing the thing, or people unsubscribe. Just look at Twitch streamers talking about how a few days off makes their revenue take a massive hit. I'm pretty sure he recently had (is going to have?) a kid or something too. I dunno. I'm obviously making a lot of assumptions, but as a lifelong artist myself who hopes to make a career out of it, it's just kind of staggering to think about drawing the same exact thing for nearly twenty years, and all the pitfalls of that, and how it becomes your "thing" and if you diverge from it you risk losing your livelihood. Three times a week, every single week, for years and years and years, in front of readers who expect some degree of consistency in both how the story is told and how the comic is drawn, and have come to expect it on a perfectly timed schedule. Clean lineart, fully colored, partially shaded, with backgrounds and dynamic poses and angles. Pages and pages, each one a series of drawings of the same quality, carefully laid out to tell an ongoing story without distracting the reader with mistakes. I've drawn comics in the past - a few pages each, with much less expectation of quality. And you know what? I think I'd lose my loving mind. I have a lot of respect for him when I think of it in those terms, even if the comic's overall quality has decreased. It's a wonder it was as good as it was for so long. Most webcomics start spinning their wheels far sooner. I wish we had UBI so artists could do whatever they want without pressure. It's easy to say "maybe he should take a break" when you're not in that position.
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Jul 4, 2022 06:01
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You make some really good points here. It sounds like utter torture to have your livelihood tied to a single piece of art for decades. Especially one that is, in some ways, static. It can evolve with the author to some degree, but you're still restricted to the story you started out telling. If you change as a person or have new ideas, you can't really put those to paper without destroying the thing you've already started.
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Jul 4, 2022 12:48
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so there was another loving timeskip between these two bips where they apparently explained everything about this meeting, OR they forgot instantly. i think i'm at the point of unfollowing this thread even, i just... it hurts my heart. tom, what the gently caress happened?
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Jul 4, 2022 17:04
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Niavmai posted:so there was another loving timeskip between these two bips where they apparently explained everything about this meeting, OR they forgot instantly. Yeah I guess Annie just didn't explain, and Parley didn't pry. Because Annie is so upset over Rey's body, I guess? I really have no idea what's supposed to be happening at this point. Early in this chapter I thought everyone was onto Loup pretending to be Jerrek because of how stilted and weird their dialogue was, like they were acting badly, but it turns out that's just how they talk now.
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Jul 4, 2022 17:35
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There Bias Two posted:You make some really good points here. It sounds like utter torture to have your livelihood tied to a single piece of art for decades. Especially one that is, in some ways, static. It can evolve with the author to some degree, but you're still restricted to the story you started out telling. it's more complicated though because it's the bugs bunny problem - GC underwent radical style and narrative structure changes in the first few chapters (remember when it was all annie telling a story?) and then gradually built up a model that got successful. it was a highly dynamic, changing property but success curtails that - people don't really want much experimental artistry, they want slightly more of the slightly same. so that artistic growth and development becomes a little restricted, and that creative impulse can grow a little stunted. you can somewhat manage this with side content and the occasional flourish but the main property can really be that adaptive or experimental anymore. this tends to have be a long term consequences for serialized media that literally universally leads to what you're seeing here - when it enters the "final phase" whatever that looks like the process of tying up all the loose ends, particularly ones of long-running plot points and promises which the audience has had lots of time to dream about is horrendously unsatisfying. because of course it is, mysteries are easy solutions are hard, tying up x years of mystery in a short period means the majority of them can't possibly be important or resolved in a narratively consequential manner. annie's relationship with her father needed resolution, one could argue that could have been the central conflict/tension of the series at points at least from an emotional perspective, but ultimately all that poo poo would get in the way so we get a quick chapter no one likes that resolves the issue so we can get back to i don't remember, omega or gamma or something. but it's resolved and we're moving on. this is (imo) why people start getting so frustrated with characters and plot points introduced really late, because it feels like we have to rush past the interesting stuff to get to the adventures of girl robot and her crushes. if the girl robot crush arc was somewhere else, people probably wouldn't have reacted as negatively imo.
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Jul 4, 2022 19:22
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Niavmai posted:so there was another loving timeskip between these two bips where they apparently explained everything about this meeting, OR they forgot instantly. 
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Jul 4, 2022 19:25
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Begemot posted:Yeah I guess Annie just didn't explain, and Parley didn't pry. Because Annie is so upset over Rey's body, I guess? I really have no idea what's supposed to be happening at this point. Early in this chapter I thought everyone was onto Loup pretending to be Jerrek because of how stilted and weird their dialogue was, like they were acting badly, but it turns out that's just how they talk now. Yeah there's like.... zero emotional stakes to make any of this have gravitas. There's no buildup for why we should give a poo poo about Rey's body, no indication that Rey cared that much aside from common sense. Which, I'm getting really tired of saying "no indication aside from common sense". It just feels like "okay now Loup destroys rey's body and everyone is really sad" is written as happening at this part in the script but the writer forgot to add in the part where Rey literally ever voices a desire for or attachment to his body. There's so much that is just missing. I got pretty excited with the last page because I thought Parley was going to accidentally freudian blip them into the meeting, which would've been a great way to insert the viewer *and* the characters into the meeting and get some juicy exposition and shake things up. But then... nothing. It just feels like nothing happens. Or, more accurately, something happens that doesn't make a lot of sense, immediately stops, characters react to it in an unrealistic way, they spend 5 pages talking about it, exit stage left, something happens that doesn't make a lot of sense...
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Jul 4, 2022 20:46
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I am not impressed with these latest chapters. I'd prefer we get back to robot cult insurrection.
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Jul 5, 2022 02:03
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I'm still worried about what is up with Zimmy.
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Jul 5, 2022 17:21
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the same thing that's always up with zimmy, contorted screaming and pain until her possibly imaginary girlfriend shows up and then it's resolved while a big blinking cutout where jack used to be flashes in the corner
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Jul 5, 2022 20:35
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Quick zimmy rewrite the plot like you do Zimmy Ex Machina.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:19
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I would love to see more Zimmy, tbh. One of the most fascinating parts of the comic. Would love to know whatever this page is alluding to. What could someone as young as Zimmy have possibly done and how would it have made her this way?
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Jul 6, 2022 01:59
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CoolCab posted:it's more complicated though because it's the bugs bunny problem what I'm getting from this Tom needs to reintroduce Big Chungus.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:09
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Tiny Myers posted:I think Gunnerkrigg Court is an allegory for the American political system. I take more glee and lmao's than literally anyone about the decline of GKC and this is still distressing to read.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:13
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Tiny Myers posted:I would love to see more Zimmy, tbh. One of the most fascinating parts of the comic. Would love to know whatever this page is alluding to. What could someone as young as Zimmy have possibly done and how would it have made her this way? I had forgotten entirely about that conversation, the next chapter being the Mind Cage just completely erased it away from my mind. It also feels like the last Gunnerkrigg-flavored scene, if that makes sense.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:30
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Prediction: We're about to see Kat somber and uninformative about what went on at the meeting.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:20
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Kat caused a religious war.
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Jul 6, 2022 05:30
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Rand Brittain posted:Prediction: We're about to see Kat somber and uninformative about what went on at the meeting. My guess is Kat and co are leaving for the new court tonight. I think she'll at least say goodbye, but at this rate i wouldn't be surprised if she just vanishes tonight without saying anything to Annie.
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Jul 6, 2022 06:34
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oh god we're doing the "author has characters loudly announce their feelings to cover for poor storytelling" now
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Jul 6, 2022 08:07
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Now?
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