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Cease to Hope posted:generally they do not allow themselves to be annexed out of the game, and the rare occasions where it's been possible (like in EU4) it's been problematic! Doesn't the major unification system basically only apply to germany and italy? Both other vicky games let those nations just get annexed without a fight. I also can't think of any pds game without something similar aside from stellaris.
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Jul 1, 2022 04:44
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yeti friend posted:Doesn't the major unification system basically only apply to germany and italy? Both other vicky games let those nations just get annexed without a fight. I also can't think of any pds game without something similar aside from stellaris. I think if the purpose of this game is essentially alt history its silly to limit the unification thing to places where it actually happened
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Jul 1, 2022 05:03
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yeti friend posted:are you having them start as vassals in eu4 or what? being diplo annexed is not a common thing in pds games at all. it's only possible in like 2 of them anyway i think sometimes people just play the tag that controls wherever they currently live or somewhere important to them for their first game, or they just pick at random. sometimes that's a Bad Pick. there's also the issue of trying to transfer knowledge between games - someone with CK experience might go into EU4 thinking "ah, i know, i'll play on ireland, the tutorial island" and, well, 
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Jul 1, 2022 05:05
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VostokProgram posted:An HG Wells / Jules Verne mod would be cool. Just throw in every sci fi trope from that era The Clauswitz/Jomini decision from Vicky 2 but you choose between the mad science of Nikola Tesla or Thomas Edison and get different superweapons. You start out with basic stuff, like giant Tesla cannons or elephant killing oo-rays, and upgrade to Loveless-ian mechanical spiders and some sort of O.R.B. that no one knows quite what it does but is estimated to have enough killing power to cull an entire circus troupe of elephants every 3 seconds... forever.
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Jul 1, 2022 05:08
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AIs, in the video game, are not there to win. They're there to provide challenge and flavor to the actual human player/s. They will submit to diploannexation because that is designed to make the player feel good about successfully diplomancing, or to provide a bigger threat to the player, or to punish the player for not diplomancing well enough. Expecting to fight every single German minor isn't good gameplay, and for what? Because we want to make each AI 'player' want to 'win' a game with no actual wincon?
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Jul 1, 2022 05:09
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Hellioning posted:AIs, in the video game, are not there to win. They're there to provide challenge and flavor to the actual human player/s. They will submit to diploannexation because that is designed to make the player feel good about successfully diplomancing, or to provide a bigger threat to the player, or to punish the player for not diplomancing well enough. Expecting to fight every single German minor isn't good gameplay, and for what? Because we want to make each AI 'player' want to 'win' a game with no actual wincon? Yeah I want a simulation of the long 19th century, not a competitive gaming experience with min maxing ai
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Jul 1, 2022 05:13
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FishBulbia posted:I think if the purpose of this game is essentially alt history its silly to limit the unification thing to places where it actually happened
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Jul 1, 2022 05:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don’t recall, wasn’t it based on culture groups? Meaning it could come into play in other places, if the conditions were right. Germany and Italy just have the advantage of having little baby states. It was entirely based on scripted decisions, you could annex Texas and Hawaii as the US, but couldn't say, an independent Canada/Quebec/Cuba
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Jul 1, 2022 05:57
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FishBulbia posted:It was entirely based on scripted decisions, you could annex Texas and Hawaii as the US, but couldn't say, an independent Canada/Quebec/Cuba I think you’re talking about something different. A Buttery Pastry posted:I don’t recall, wasn’t it based on culture groups? Meaning it could come into play in other places, if the conditions were right. Germany and Italy just have the advantage of having little baby states. Yeah it’s not hard coded but there are only the two places setup for it at game start iirc.
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Jul 1, 2022 06:02
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yeti friend posted:Doesn't the major unification system basically only apply to germany and italy? Both other vicky games let those nations just get annexed without a fight. I also can't think of any pds game without something similar aside from stellaris. it was working on scandinavia in the sweden aar
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Jul 1, 2022 08:09
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yeti friend posted:are you having them start as vassals in eu4 or what? being diplo annexed is not a common thing in pds games at all. it's only possible in like 2 of them anyway I've only played CK2/3, Stellaris and EUIV, but you can diplo annex in all three games. It is easiest in Crusader Kings, but that of course makes perfect sense. Swearing fealty to a nearby, powerful ruler isn't a game over, and can in fact seriously strengthen a player's position in the long run. It's also quite easy right now in Stellaris, probably too easy. And it involves jumping through a few hoops, and takes quite some time. EUIV's system is the most restrictive.
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Jul 1, 2022 08:54
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Cease to Hope posted:generally they do not allow themselves to be annexed out of the game, and the rare occasions where it's been possible (like in EU4) it's been problematic! Could you expand on what you mean when you say diplo-annexation in EU4 has been problematic? Becauase I and presumably a lot of the other posters here still don't have a clear idea of what your objection to the system is. If the issue is that new players can get caught out by the system and face unceremonious game overs, I'd call that more of a problem of tutorialisation than an underlying problem with the system itself. EU4 has a ton of poorly explained mechanics that can catch players out, but I wouldn't call that grounds for removing the systems themselves. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 09:38
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If the game comes at you with a pop-up saying "surrender your sovereignty to Spain? y/n" and you accidentally click yes and get a game over, that's more of a funny story to tell your buddies than a design flaw, imo. At worst you just reload the auto-save?
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Jul 1, 2022 10:32
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I like objectives. Always wanted PDX games to have something like that. I enjoyed CK2 challenges because in a game like CK2 it's hard for me to think of a good goal apart from becoming an emperor of wherever I start and just surviving. Empire-building games don't need it as much. In EU4 you are busy with surviving, then you secure your place in the world, then you optimize your empire which often means conquering specific places for the benefit of trade. And then you have missions and Estate requests and grand decisions. But even from a narrative POV you have an idea of real history and this naturally provides goals for you, unlike playing as tribal chief of Kazan in CK2/3. So it's weird for me that this system starts in Victoria 3 specifically, cause it seems to be full of systems that ask you to do stuff. So it's weird to me that playtesters feel like they have no goals, weren't we told that parties and movements push the player, not to mention economic problems and diplomacy?..
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Jul 1, 2022 10:36
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i don't need an objective beyond becoming the world's foremost manufacturer of fine furniture
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Jul 1, 2022 11:51
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"Prussia is not a country with a furniture factory, but a furniture factory with a country"
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Jul 1, 2022 12:19
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ilitarist posted:So it's weird for me that this system starts in Victoria 3 specifically, cause it seems to be full of systems that ask you to do stuff. So it's weird to me that playtesters feel like they have no goals, weren't we told that parties and movements push the player, not to mention economic problems and diplomacy?.. I think it's more like, everyone knows that they want to make a bigger economy or stronger army or become more diplomatically influential, but there's so many moving parts involved that it might be hard to decide where to start achieving that. Having an objective say something like "you seem to be lacking in <resource>, do something to get more" seems like a useful thing.
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Jul 1, 2022 13:28
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Clarste posted:If the game comes at you with a pop-up saying "surrender your sovereignty to Spain? y/n" and you accidentally click yes and get a game over, that's more of a funny story to tell your buddies than a design flaw, imo. At worst you just reload the auto-save? This pop up is generally a non-choice, it’s game over either way.
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Jul 1, 2022 13:33
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From what I saw in the leak you get an option to switch countries if you do get a game over anyway so you can always just keep on Like I dunno yeah sometimes you lose in videogames, whatever?
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Jul 1, 2022 13:59
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i alt+f4 the moment my economy goes down 1%
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Jul 1, 2022 14:38
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DaysBefore posted:From what I saw in the leak you get an option to switch countries if you do get a game over anyway so you can always just keep on
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Jul 1, 2022 14:45
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Fellblade posted:This pop up is generally a non-choice, it’s game over either way. Sometimes you might lose a video game when you're a lvl 2 scrub all alone in the woods and some lvl 100 guy decides to gently caress you up, that's not a design flaw that's WAI? If you want to avoid that as a minor, get some powerful friends of your own.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:18
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Cease to Hope posted:it was working on scandinavia in the sweden aar I would imagine if you get the ball rolling enough as Gran Columbia it'd probably apply to some of the south American states too.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:22
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It’s honestly extremely hard to lose in a paradox game unless you are just over aggressive or like in crusader kings you get weird luck with kids
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Jul 1, 2022 15:25
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Some real dumb hot takes like I am saying losing is bad and shouldn’t be in games. The game presents you with a choice, you pick an option and lose the game. That tells the user they made the wrong choice. So you play again and maybe get into the same spot, you pick the other option this time and lose the game. What the gently caress? This is confusing for users without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the game to know that the events hours in the past probably led to this, is that so confusing? I am not saying remove it from the game, I am just stating that is a situation you should try to anticipate and avoid when designing game mechanics.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:28
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s honestly extremely hard to lose in a paradox game unless you are just over aggressive or like in crusader kings you get weird luck with kids Or (in CK2) have the Black Death wipe out your whole dynasty.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:29
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Fellblade posted:Some real dumb hot takes like I am saying losing is bad and shouldn’t be in games. I dont even know what your describing are we still talking about diplo annexing or have we veered to something else because what your describing doesn’t happen in diplo annexing
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Jul 1, 2022 15:33
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As far as annexation, Vic2 has two mechanism: one is a generic set of events for when a culture of culture group has a cultural union tag, but requires tags be pre-set for the union. This applies to lots of nations: Romania, Poland, Arabia, etc. Then there's a few cases where custom decisions override the general ones, such as Germany and Italy. There was a time I was trying to document this on the wiki but I got in an edit war with someone who disagreed about how it worked on order expansions and didn't have a copy of vanilla Vic2 saved and it wasn't worth the effort to keep trying.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:41
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Torrannor posted:I've only played CK2/3, Stellaris and EUIV, but you can diplo annex in all three games. It is easiest in Crusader Kings, but that of course makes perfect sense. Swearing fealty to a nearby, powerful ruler isn't a game over, and can in fact seriously strengthen a player's position in the long run. It's also quite easy right now in Stellaris, probably too easy. And it involves jumping through a few hoops, and takes quite some time. EUIV's system is the most restrictive. The conversation was about game over from diplo annexing. That doesn’t happen in ck2 because it does not have diplo annexing. Diplo vassalizarion is not the same thing. Europa and stellaris were indeed the two series I was thinking of.
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Jul 1, 2022 15:51
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Though I’m EU I can’t think of a scenario we’re it could happen to the player at least with the player having no say
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Jul 1, 2022 15:53
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It seems like if you're playing the game to win and are playing well enough, it's not a situation you should ever find yourself in. And if you're playing as the Duchy of Baden in 1835, then with foreknowledge (or even the ability to read the newspaper as a contemporary) that Prussia is gunning for hegemony over the greater portion of the Germanic peoples you should already be aware that you're the power pellet to the Prussian Pacman and are on a deadline to avoid that fate or be ready to accept that your game ends early. No one's going to be chugging along as a greater power and get a "oops you lost" popup out of the blue, the mechanic as I understand it seems to be the culmination of large political-social forces you failed to navigate past and that's, you know, history.
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Jul 1, 2022 16:04
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That also seems to be the game, you know the whole point of playing. Like this is a political simulator. You don’t need a in depth knowledge of the game but if you have no understanding nor any interesting in learning why are you even playing Vicky
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Jul 1, 2022 16:08
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though I’m EU I can’t think of a scenario we’re it could happen to the player at least with the player having no say I haven't been in this situation in an EU game for a very long time but you did used to literally get a pop up saying "country wants to annex you diplomatically, do you accept (you will lose the game)" which was both amusing and kind of stupid, but I don't remember if that was even in EU4
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Jul 1, 2022 16:17
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CharlestheHammer posted:I dont even know what your describing are we still talking about diplo annexing or have we veered to something else because what your describing doesn’t happen in diplo annexing I guess we disagree on that then! In my opinion, if you get to the point where you are warned they are diplo-annexing you it’s too late to stop it. Sure you can technically declare war to break free but they will crush you or you wouldn’t be in the situation (a vassal or whatever) in the first place. Even if it doesn’t happen, if it feels like that it does, which anecdotally it does, then it is a flaw in communicating.
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Jul 1, 2022 16:24
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ilitarist posted:I like objectives. Always wanted PDX games to have something like that. I enjoyed CK2 challenges because in a game like CK2 it's hard for me to think of a good goal apart from becoming an emperor of wherever I start and just surviving. Empire-building games don't need it as much. In EU4 you are busy with surviving, then you secure your place in the world, then you optimize your empire which often means conquering specific places for the benefit of trade. And then you have missions and Estate requests and grand decisions. But even from a narrative POV you have an idea of real history and this naturally provides goals for you, unlike playing as tribal chief of Kazan in CK2/3. It starts in this game because we made a design and put time into it for this game, not because it wouldn't fit the other PDS games.
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Jul 1, 2022 16:46
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ilitarist posted:I like objectives. Always wanted PDX games to have something like that. I enjoyed CK2 challenges because in a game like CK2 it's hard for me to think of a good goal apart from becoming an emperor of wherever I start and just surviving. Empire-building games don't need it as much. In EU4 you are busy with surviving, then you secure your place in the world, then you optimize your empire which often means conquering specific places for the benefit of trade. And then you have missions and Estate requests and grand decisions. But even from a narrative POV you have an idea of real history and this naturally provides goals for you, unlike playing as tribal chief of Kazan in CK2/3. Perhaps, but those can still be ambiguous levers and methods, until a goal with a few breadcrumbs is put in front of the player: then they come to grasp how to pull those levers, tweak outputs and demographics, and reach those goals.
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Jul 1, 2022 16:50
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Fellblade posted:Some real dumb hot takes like I am saying losing is bad and shouldn’t be in games. If you're Aragon and you're such a weak state that by refusing the unification with Castille, you're entering a losing war, that's not a problem with the feature, it's a problem that you're too weak to survive a war against a stronger neighbor. If you're playing as the Livonian Order and Poland attacks you and makes you lose the game, that's not a design issue. It's a fact of playing minor nations being harder than stronger ones, which is why no one recommends Czechoslovakia or Manchuria as your first starting nation when you buy HoI4 or Bizantium and Navarra when you start off EU4. Fellblade posted:I guess we disagree on that then! But by the point where you get the "do you want to be annexed" message, you've spent probably years as a small and weak vassal compared to your master? That entire time is the game telling you that you're in trouble. New and inexperienced players shouldn't start a Vicky 3 game as Baden because not only will it not be a recommended country, but also visually obvious by looking at your gigantic neighbours that you're not in for a good time unless you know what you're doing.
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Jul 1, 2022 17:12
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Wiz posted:It starts in this game because we made a design and put time into it for this game, not because it wouldn't fit the other PDS games. Wonder if it might find its way back into CK3 like CK3 nested tooltips came to Imperator Rome.
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Jul 1, 2022 17:21
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Didn't this discussion start with "countries supporting their own annexation"? That's an AI behavior, it's got nothing to do with new players having difficulty with the game
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Jul 1, 2022 17:25
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Fellblade posted:Some real dumb hot takes like I am saying losing is bad and shouldn’t be in games. I don't think that will be confusing for anyone.
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Jul 1, 2022 17:37
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