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oof, so they didn't red flag him, and the system just completely failed.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:oof, so they didn't red flag him, and the system just completely failed. No, it was "working as intended" because federal law makes very clear that you can only prevent someone from possessing guns in extremely limited circumstances. He wasn't being involuntarily committed and deemed mentally defective by a judge. His family didn't want any law enforcement or mental health intervention either. Federal law only allows you to be denied a gun purchase for mental health reasons if you have been sentenced or committed involuntarily by a judge or you have been voluntarily in the last 6 months.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Federal law only allows you to be denied a gun purchase for mental health reasons if you have been sentenced or committed involuntarily by a judge or you have been voluntarily in the last 6 months. Will that change under the new law just passed?
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Jul 5, 2022 23:00
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Willa Rogers posted:Will that change under the new law just passed? Federally? No. It will put a 10-day waiting period on people 21 and under trying to buy guns that requires a review of federal and state mental health databases and juvenile records. That can be expanded to 20 days if they find something that is concerning or requires further investigation. It would be up to the state what to do if they have some sort of mental health/juvenile record that isn't felonious or rising to the level that it was adjudicated or involuntary. The bipartisan gun bill was mostly funding for mental health resources, funding for background checks, and funding for states to implement red flag laws. The only classes of people the bill cracked down on actually purchasing guns were straw buyers, people with domestic violence charges, and sellers who aren't federally licensed.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:17
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Mooseontheloose posted:Prepare for a round of watch out for quiet kids they are the real problem not the white nationalism rounds in the media. https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/illinois-shooting-july-fourth-parade-07-05-22/index.html Sometimes that poo poo is true, and sometimes that poo poo is bullshit from people who are not willing to say "Oh yeah I saw warning signs and did nothing" so, whatever. But yes it's also entirely possible he was quietly radicalized by social media algorithms.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:17
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The most recent batch of shooters have all had really terrible parents/family who aided and abetted them. "Bad parents" is a bit of a cliche and people are not destined to be shaped entirely by their parents, but when you have the Michigan school shooter's mom texting him about how to hide his guns at school and covering for him to the principal, the Illinois shooter's family refusing to get mental health treatment or get him flagged from buying guns, and multiple other shooters whose parents bought them their guns when they knew they had violence/extremist political/racist/mental health issues is baffling. If your kid talks about shooting up the school, you buy him a gun, and then he shoots up the school, I have no idea how you as a parent can go out and say "this came out of nowhere and there were no warnings."
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Jul 5, 2022 23:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, it was "working as intended" because federal law makes very clear that you can only prevent someone from possessing guns in extremely limited circumstances. He wasn't being involuntarily committed and deemed mentally defective by a judge. His family didn't want any law enforcement or mental health intervention either. They could have charged him criminally, which depending on how far the family covers for him can really be an uphill battle but at the rate things are going with mass shootings we may see more hail Mary’s trying to get convictions for this stuff. The challenge for the justice system is where x is the number of mass shooters the number of dudes making threats could be 100x or even 1000x
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Jul 5, 2022 23:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The most recent batch of shooters have all had really terrible parents/family who aided and abetted them. "Bad parents" is a bit of a cliche and people are not destined to be shaped entirely by their parents, but when you have the Michigan school shooter's mom texting him about how to hide his guns at school and covering for him to the principal, the Illinois shooter's family refusing to get mental health treatment or get him flagged from buying guns, and multiple other shooters whose parents bought them their guns when they knew they had violence/extremist political/racist/mental health issues is baffling.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The most recent batch of shooters have all had really terrible parents/family who aided and abetted them. "Bad parents" is a bit of a cliche and people are not destined to be shaped entirely by their parents, but when you have the Michigan school shooter's mom texting him about how to hide his guns at school and covering for him to the principal, the Illinois shooter's family refusing to get mental health treatment or get him flagged from buying guns, and multiple other shooters whose parents bought them their guns when they knew they had violence/extremist political/racist/mental health issues is baffling. Cognitive dissonance and/or lying in public to help the case. If your child is your precious angel who can do no wrong you won't see any of the problems. And that weird permissive but overbearing belief in specialness from one or both parents has hosed up a lot of people.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:56
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Honest question: Have any of these mass shooters been anything other than a white male? I think maybe a few have been Hispanic but it seems like the vast, vast majority are white males.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:59
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Charliegrs posted:Honest question: Have any of these mass shooters been anything other than a white male? I think maybe a few have been Hispanic but it seems like the vast, vast majority are white males. Discussed here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/
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Jul 6, 2022 00:04
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Charliegrs posted:Honest question: Have any of these mass shooters been anything other than a white male? I think maybe a few have been Hispanic but it seems like the vast, vast majority are white males. There are examples of non white men committing mass shootings though they hold a majority for a few different reasons. The why depends on the type of mass shooting we're talking about which is a grim sentence. Shootings like Chicago definitely lean towards white men in the same way serial killers do. There are some new arguments that the profile of these shooters is that they're suicidal people who then turn their suicidal idiations into an outward hatred and commit murder suicide on a grand scale as a last act. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/27/stopping-mass-shooters-q-a-00035762 Honestly I don't think that profile leans white for any reason beyond demographics. And if there is anything to it I'll be honest I think it would just be a sign white supremacy is toxic to white people too.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:14
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yronic heroism posted:Discussed here: How does this define mass shootings? Those numbers don't seem to match the definition of 3 or more people being shot.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:16
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You have to register an account on the site to view their sources and it keeps trying to get you to pay money so who knows
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Jul 6, 2022 00:31
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yronic heroism posted:They could have charged him criminally, which depending on how far the family covers for him can really be an uphill battle but at the rate things are going with mass shootings we may see more hail Mary’s trying to get convictions for this stuff. The challenge for the justice system is where x is the number of mass shooters the number of dudes making threats could be 100x or even 1000x Not that you're really saying this, but I really don't think broadly stepping up criminal charges on juveniles is the appropriate method to prevent gun violence. If we have an insane country that makes it impossible to deal with guns intelligently then we can't just make independent issues way worse as a workaround.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:36
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Nazzadan posted:You have to register an account on the site to view their sources and it keeps trying to get you to pay money so who knows https://www.theviolenceproject.org/mass-shooter-database/ According to the violence project 52% of mass shooters are white when mass shooting is defined as 4 or more deaths.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:38
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Gumball Gumption posted:There are examples of non white men committing mass shootings though they hold a majority for a few different reasons. The why depends on the type of mass shooting we're talking about which is a grim sentence. Guns are expensive as well. It’s hard to get a bushmaster and a bunch of bullets on a whim. If your cards are maxed out, maybe sometimes the moment has passed and you’re just a regular suicide or mere family annihilator.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:41
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Gumball Gumption posted:How does this define mass shootings? Those numbers don't seem to match the definition of 3 or more people being shot. Unclear but if they are going by the Mother Jones definition of four or more fatally shot, they look somewhat close to the total number of incidents. The Mother Jones methodology is discussed here: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/how-many-mass-shootings-are-there-really.html
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Jul 6, 2022 00:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:If your kid talks about shooting up the school, you buy him a gun, and then he shoots up the school, I have no idea how you as a parent can go out and say "this came out of nowhere and there were no warnings." Maybe mine is too simplistic of a view. Being a parent under the best of conditions can be challenging. But it seems that American society makes it really easy to make it harder, especially by diverting a parents focus, to say nothing about all of the other great blind spots we as a collective nation enjoy and elevate, like believing mental disorders and behaviors to being moral failings for example.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:46
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I AM GRANDO posted:Guns are expensive as well. It’s hard to get a bushmaster and a bunch of bullets on a whim. If your cards are maxed out, maybe sometimes the moment has passed and you’re just a regular suicide or mere family annihilator. Eh yes and no, check out the link above. Almost half of these shooters are in crisis for years and plan this out over long periods of time. That sort of planning excludes the moment passing though they do try to seek out help in that suicidal way before taking action. Christ, one of the big problems here is that we need to keep going back to "what kind of mass shooting?". While they have similarities it's also just a singularity of every brain worm that makes you kill. Political? Suicidal? Severe dangerous mental break? They can all get a gun into their hands easily enough and since the human brain is grossly addicted to faster and more efficient lmao lol here we are.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:46
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Not that you're really saying this, but I really don't think broadly stepping up criminal charges on juveniles is the appropriate method to prevent gun violence. If we have an insane country that makes it impossible to deal with guns intelligently then we can't just make independent issues way worse as a workaround. At least in this particular instance I think the guy would have been an adult in 2019.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:50
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Nessus posted:I assume the parents are basically on board with the plan. That or they feel the overwhelming, burning, urgent need to own at least one AR-15 is so great, so profound, and so fundamental that it overwhelms little Skylter posting "I profoundly want to shoot up a school." Pretty much, yeah https://mobile.twitter.com/BenBradleyTV/status/1544456036014252038
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Jul 6, 2022 00:53
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As of this past Friday, the executive action that Trump signed kicked in requiring all insurers & self-insured employers to publicly post their negotiated prices with medical providers. A KHN/BenefitsPro explainer: quote:Will new health insurer transparency rules spark a health care revolution? *I doubt that it's private insurers "being bad at negotiating" as much as it's insurers hewing to the ACA's "limits" on percentage of profits that private insurers are allowed to keep under the law, which clearly incentivizes price collusion between private insurers and providers. This, and Trump's signing into law the No Surprises Act, which outlawed charging out-of-network costs within in-network hospitals, are clearly the two best legacies of his presidency, imo. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 01:51
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Zombie Lemur posted:Pretty much, yeah Advocating violence: you lose your SA account, but you can still buy a gun in Illinois. Top tier law. People say the mods are bad at making rules but *gestures to USA*
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Jul 6, 2022 01:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Advocating violence: you lose your SA account, but you can still buy a gun in Illinois. Top tier law. People say the mods are bad at making rules but *gestures to USA* For a moment I interpreted this post as saying the shooter was a banned SA forums user.
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Jul 6, 2022 01:57
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Advocating violence: you lose your SA account, but you can still buy a gun in Illinois. Top tier law. People say the mods are bad at making rules but *gestures to
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Jul 6, 2022 02:05
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Fritz the Horse posted:For a moment I interpreted this post as saying the shooter was a banned SA forums user. We probably shouldn't forums search his various usernames
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Jul 6, 2022 02:28
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I doubt any 21 year old has ever even heard of SA
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Jul 6, 2022 02:34
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Zombie Lemur posted:Pretty much, yeah Like maybe suing gun owners until they are bankrupt will cause some people to rethink their relationship with guns?
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Jul 6, 2022 02:41
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Hoping not to invoke "pro-gun leftist" stigma, but aren't we at unironically at "nothing can done" legislatively? Even "working with what we have", any meaningful gun legislation with any significant effect is likely impossible, and seemingly still wouldn't be enough to address both our amount of gun deaths or our mass shootings. And what we're all worried about, this thread and (some of) the USA that is, isn't just some data points on gun statitistics, it's more than that. It's our culture. Even if we somehow banned guns in some real way, wouldn't it just lead to largely right wing upheaval and terrorism? We've been sowing this crop for a long time. Just to be clear I'm not anti gun control or even close to pro gun, but it just bugs the hell out of me that this is going to keep happening and be followed by days of political coverage on middling half measures that won't exist or matter by the time they have any impact at all, while we ignore the issues that erase a chance of a future. Guess I'm saying I'm done pretending our leaders system or culture can address this (or much of anything), the political circus makes the constant deaths somehow worse, and I hope people stop equating folks scoffing at gun control coverage with ignoring statistics or worshipping the gun.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:42
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Mooseontheloose posted:Like maybe suing gun owners until they are bankrupt will cause some people to rethink their relationship with guns? Yeah, and I bet our draconian seizure laws will put a real dent in people dealing or using drugs too!
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Jul 6, 2022 02:46
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BRJurgis posted:Hoping not to invoke "pro-gun leftist" stigma, but aren't we at unironically at "nothing can done" legislatively? Even "working with what we have", any meaningful gun legislation with any significant effect is likely impossible, and seemingly still wouldn't be enough to address both our amount of gun deaths or our mass shootings. You are stating the arguments employed by the gun lobby: that there is a cultural issue innate to America that makes gun control futile, that any gun control measure that passes will have perverse political outcomes and will also, simultaneously, not be "meaningful" or "real", and that gun control would create an existential upheaval. This is the reactionary playbook to shut down discussion of the specifics of any policy measure.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:48
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Discendo Vox posted:You are stating the arguments employed by the gun lobby: that there is a cultural issue innate to America that makes gun control futile, that any gun control measure that passes will have perverse political outcomes and will also, simultaneously, not be "meaningful" or "real", and that gun control would create an existential upheaval. This is the reactionary playbook to shut down discussion of the specifics of any policy measure. your distaste with the tone taken is noted. is he wrong, though? you've seen the degree of gun control a democratic trifecta is willing to sign off on, and we can agree that it is 1. more than anyone had expected the democrats to produce 2. hopelessly inadequate to even begin to address the depth and breadth of the problem that is american gun violence 3. we will not see even that pale pretense of doing something about the problem without democratic control of House, Senate, and White House. if in a once-a-decade environment where Democrats are (hypothetically) not answerable to anyone other than themselves, the best we can expect is this weak-rear end poo poo, asking someone to trust our leaders, system, and/or culture can address this is a -very- difficult ask.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:10
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How did smoking get forced to the fringes of society? In some ways it was a similar dynamic, in that a powerful lobby prevented laws outlawing smoking in restaurants or concert venues and kept making GBS threads up public discourse about how dangerous and bad cigarettes are. I guess a big difference is that cigarettes kill smokers and even very dumb people want to live.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:19
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Discendo Vox posted:You are stating the arguments employed by the gun lobby: that there is a cultural issue innate to America that makes gun control futile, that any gun control measure that passes will have perverse political outcomes and will also, simultaneously, not be "meaningful" or "real", and that gun control would create an existential upheaval. This is the reactionary playbook to shut down discussion of the specifics of any policy measure. People don't like it when the government takes their rights away any more than they like it when the government confiscates their property. There are about 80 million gun owners in America who have broken no laws. They followed the rules and now you think there will be no blowback if you confiscate their property? The political outcomes are real.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:21
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If we change the laws so taking them is legal, what’s the problem? Or do gun owners only “abide” the laws they like and not the others?
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Jul 6, 2022 03:29
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Bishyaler posted:People don't like it when the government takes their rights away any more than they like it when the government confiscates their property. There are about 80 million gun owners in America who have broken no laws. They followed the rules and now you think there will be no blowback if you confiscate their property? The political outcomes are real. Got any sources for this claim? And to clarify, I'm asking about broken no [gun related] laws, regardless if they are charged or not. Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 03:40
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Discendo Vox posted:You are stating the arguments employed by the gun lobby: that there is a cultural issue innate to America that makes gun control futile, that any gun control measure that passes will have perverse political outcomes and will also, simultaneously, not be "meaningful" or "real", and that gun control would create an existential upheaval. This is the reactionary playbook to shut down discussion of the specifics of any policy measure. The gun lobby won, we love the gun and we're saturated in it. A long fought victory over that issue is less and less possible, and would only serve as another massive wedge in the meantime while all of the other significant causes of our violence/decline go unaddressed. If mass approval/votes/action is what we need to achieve anything, I don't see how this cycle is any step forward at all given the state of things. If you want to call me biased because of I place the importance of climate change over other issues that's fine, but you must realize it doesn't matter that my argument somewhat aligns with the gun lobby when that was the thrust and tragedy of my post. The onion article is realized. It's forest for the trees lifeboats on the titanic level.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:48
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Kalit posted:Got any sources for this claim? And to clarify, I'm asking about broken no [gun related] laws, regardless if they are charged or not. So you're asking me if I have more information than law enforcement? No. I don't have clairvoyance into the lives of gun owners. All I can tell you is that they are still gun owners by virtue of not having broken any laws that would result in having them confiscated and banned from future legal ownership.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:52
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Bishyaler posted:So you're asking me if I have more information than law enforcement? No. I don't have clairvoyance into the lives of gun owners. All I can tell you is that they are still gun owners by virtue of not having broken any laws that would result in having them confiscated and banned from future legal ownership. You made a claim, I simply asked you to back up the claim. Maybe you shouldn't make a claim that you don't know to be a fact? Unless you have full faith in the government to determine who has/has not broken a law, in which case I would seriously doubt your judgement...
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Jul 6, 2022 03:56
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