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CharlestonJew posted:You can basically become a ninja in this setting with enough training, but then I'd imagine that "ninja with a gun" would also be extremely effective, so the question of "why don't dudes just use guns" remains Because guns are for villains, the only hero who uses a gun explicitly is capable of "perfect" non-lethal shooting.
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Jul 6, 2022 14:21
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I mean, Lady Nagant proved that even current level Deku can have trouble against a single good sniper with a mobility tool/quirk.
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Jul 6, 2022 14:42
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I'm getting grognard-y "why do the heroes not simply shoot the villains with their bullets" vibes from this conversation. I know that's not all it is, but it's funny.
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Jul 6, 2022 14:56
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Scholtz posted:AfO is a interesting dilemma with regards to imprisonment. Yeah considering Endeavor and Hawks have been explicitly trying to kill him I don't think they intend to bring him back alive.
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Jul 6, 2022 16:39
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CharlestonJew posted:You can basically become a ninja in this setting with enough training, but then I'd imagine that "ninja with a gun" would also be extremely effective, so the question of "why don't dudes just use guns" remains Isn't there a hero whose quirk is "is a ninja"? give that guy a gun.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:08
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CharlestonJew posted:so the question of "why don't dudes just use guns" remains Because this is a Spider-Man story, not a Punisher story. Heroes just straight-up shooting to kill seems tonally off for this series. IMO, guns are also just less interesting than playing around with wacky superpowers. Lord_Magmar posted:Because guns are for villains, the only hero who uses a gun explicitly is capable of "perfect" non-lethal shooting. People already have issues with superheroes being ordered or forced into killing people (see the discussions on Hawks and Nagant), so I don't think adding explicitly lethal equipment would be received well in-thread or in-story. Given that heroes have already been compared to cops in this thread, I'm surprised to see people being gung-ho about arming them with firearms and outright turning everyone into government assassins.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:04
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GruntMountain posted:IMO, guns are also just less interesting than playing around with wacky superpowers. I agree in general but it's not like Horikoshi really does anything wacky with his superpowers. The AFO fight was Fast Punch, Sound Punch, Shadow Punch, Fire Punch x2. JoJo this ain't.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:11
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GruntMountain posted:Because this is a Spider-Man story, not a Punisher story. Heroes just straight-up shooting to kill seems tonally off for this series. IMO, guns are also just less interesting than playing around with wacky superpowers. They are explicitly trying to kill Shigaraki and AFO.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:14
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Kanos posted:They are explicitly trying to kill Shigaraki and AFO. They are now. I was under the impression that the thread was talking about using guns as a normal thing rather than a last resort.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:16
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Also, guns are loving boring, come on.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:17
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Why do the heroes simply not slice Shigaraki in two using a sword?
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Jul 6, 2022 19:28
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due to budget cuts, UA students cannot study the blade
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Jul 6, 2022 19:31
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Oxxidation posted:due to budget cuts, UA students cannot study the blade Now what is Eri supposed to do with her Christmas gift. 
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Jul 6, 2022 19:34
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SKULL.GIF posted:I agree in general but it's not like Horikoshi really does anything wacky with his superpowers. The AFO fight was Fast Punch, Sound Punch, Shadow Punch, Fire Punch x2. JoJo this ain't. Yeah, they show up in a panel or two. You've got manga kid forming a barricade that nobody in 1-A could destroy, Mirio, Suneater, the Villain Alliance developing the second tier of their powers. There's a few good nuggets here and there.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:39
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RatHat posted:Yeah considering Endeavor and Hawks have been explicitly trying to kill him I don't think they intend to bring him back alive. I'm more questioning why AfO was kept alive and imprisoned in the first place
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Jul 6, 2022 19:40
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Arist posted:Also, guns are loving boring, come on. Equilibrium was badass
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Jul 6, 2022 20:13
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GruntMountain posted:They are now. I was under the impression that the thread was talking about using guns as a normal thing rather than a last resort. The gun talk started with someone pointing out that if Bakugo's power was effective on Shigaraki, normal weapons logically would be too, which then led to me wondering that if that's the case why there hasn't been any kind of military response to the villains destroying Japan, which led to gun chat. It's specifically in reference to the current fight, where the heroes are 100% trying to kill the villains because the villains are going to literally destroy Japan if they aren't stopped. Arist posted:Also, guns are loving boring, come on. "Realistic" guns where someone gets shot by someone from out of nowhere and falls over and dies immediately are boring, but fictional gunfights can be extremely awesome.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:27
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My point is, even if Horikoshi is bad at writing compelling and dynamic superpowered fights, "everyone shoots the bad guy with guns" is a bad and boring direction to take the superhero manga.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:30
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I brought up JoJo earlier but honestly now that I think about it, I've enjoyed pretty much every gunfight in the JoJo series. Both the actual guns and the Stand guns.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:35
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But we could've been saved from so much of the manga if instead of All Might punching him, AFO just got blown up by a pair of fighter jets.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:36
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Arist posted:My point is, even if Horikoshi is bad at writing compelling and dynamic superpowered fights, "everyone shoots the bad guy with guns" is a bad and boring direction to take the superhero manga. We just had a big awesome splash panel where a hero pulls out a ton of guns and shoots the gently caress out of the villain with them. Them being loaded with bomb sweat instead of rockets doesn't make them not guns when the function and result is identical. RareAcumen posted:But we could've been saved from so much of the manga if instead of All Might punching him, AFO just got blown up by a pair of fighter jets. Ironically, the manga showed why this specific solution doesn't work!
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Jul 6, 2022 20:37
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Kanos posted:We just had a big awesome splash panel where a hero pulls out a ton of guns and shoots the gently caress out of the villain with them. Them being loaded with bomb sweat instead of rockets doesn't make them not guns when the function and result is identical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OPW-RdzStA&t=325s
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Jul 6, 2022 20:44
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Kanos posted:We just had a big awesome splash panel where a hero pulls out a ton of guns and shoots the gently caress out of the villain with them. Them being loaded with bomb sweat instead of rockets doesn't make them not guns when the function and result is identical. No, it honestly really does change things, because it's an application of superpowers in a superhero manga. You're missing the point to an absurd degree here.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:59
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If Hatsume Mei came out in a War Machine suit and started blasting, you'd all lose your poo poo.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:07
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It's so boring when Knuckleduster punches because he doesn't actually have super strength.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:08
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They should have built AfO's prison inside a volcano or something. If the lava can't kill him maybe after long enough he'll die from hunger or w/e
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Jul 6, 2022 22:08
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Scholtz posted:I'm more questioning why AfO was kept alive and imprisoned in the first place It's been forever but I think they claim they aren't even sure what can kill him? But uh, he's hooked up to life support if I'm not mistaken. Just unhook it and wait.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:23
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SKULL.GIF posted:I brought up JoJo earlier but honestly now that I think about it, I've enjoyed pretty much every gunfight in the JoJo series. Both the actual guns and the Stand guns. Well in Jojo, you're just as likely to end up shooting yourself as you are the guy you're fighting.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:37
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oh jay posted:It's so boring when Knuckleduster punches because he doesn't actually have super strength. He's punching basic dudes 'roiding out at street level, compared to the upper elites of MHA slugging it out in the sky with glorified god powers, so it works narratively
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Jul 6, 2022 22:59
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Arist posted:No, it honestly really does change things, because it's an application of superpowers in a superhero manga. You're missing the point to an absurd degree here. There's tons of superheroes who use guns and stuff extremely like them and they're still doing superhero things in traditional superhero comics without being gritty Punisher knockoffs. Iron Man's entire powerset is guns and beams and missiles, and Star Lord and Rocket Raccoon are basically just gunmen. Hell, the one cool thing Stars and Stripes did was to use her power to gently caress with how the laser guns being fired by her allies worked to try to kill Shigaraki.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:59
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"Instead of using their fun superpowers, everyone should have a gun" is like something an alien would write, I feel like I'm losing my mind even having to argue this. e: what do you think the appeal of this setting and characters are supposed to be? It's not "shoot the bad guy." Also, this is Japan, there aren't a lot of guns to go around, generally.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:01
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People bringing up Mustard being very dangerous with just a gun are forgetting that he also had the ability to perfectly pinpoint where anyone in his smoke is at any time and the moment Kendo blew the gas away, Tetsutetsu smashed his face in.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:10
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Superpowers are fun because the type and application of them can speak to the core character behind them. Even characters without superpowers who use armaments, like Iron Man, have those armaments reflect some aspect of their character. Iron Man built those weapons, so it's cool to see him use them as they're a reflection of his intellect, and even characters that don't build their own arsenal have other tricks like cunning or unusual skills. What you're proposing is that everyone should just load up with standard-issue firearms and start shooting the villain. I'm having trouble thinking of anything potentially more boring to watch. It's bullshit tactical realism. Again, grognard poo poo.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:11
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Arist posted:"Instead of using their fun superpowers, everyone should have a gun" is like something an alien would write, I feel like I'm losing my mind even having to argue this. Christ, I never said "everyone should just use guns and shoot the villains to death and that's the end". The whole discussion came from someone saying "if Bakugo's explosions work on Shigaraki, normal weapons should too" and then I mused about where the hell the JSDF were because this is a setting that has established that guns do work and are a threat to many people with superpowers unless you have a superpower that specifically counters them. It's idle speculation about an inconsistency in the setting and world building, not a demand that Horikoshi have a SWAT team roll in and shoot Toga to death or something. Lots of superhero and shonen settings make it clear that guns do nothing so they're a non-factor. Nobody asks why nobody shoots Superman's villains to death with rifles because it's established fact that he's operating on a different level. Goku doesn't care about guns because Toriyama literally opened the series with Bulma shooting him and he got vaguely annoyed. Other superhero and shonen settings make guns a threat. One Piece has major characters die from getting shot. Spiderman is extremely vulnerable to bullets if he's put in a position where he can't avoid them. Vigilantes, in *this universe that My Hero Academia is taking place in*, has the main villain be seriously disrupted by a rifle shot. It's simply a discussion about "Huh, it's weird that MHA has established that guns and other conventional weapons are extremely dangerous but also has people not using them in moments of extreme desperation", not a demand for the NRA to take over ghost writing. Get over yourself. Kanos fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 23:12
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"why don't they just use guns" isn't really a broad critique here so much as a specific question regarding the insanely specific setup horikoshi created for the whole shigaraki fight, and it wouldn't even really be a question if 1) anything, like anything at all, was clear to the reader about the current state of society or how it operates and 2) the story hadn't literally already introduced the prospect of using military hardware against shigaraki earlier and concluded that it wasn't viable because of his regeneration quirk, which makes the logical step to "if he has no quirk* what about more gun" pretty easy. *lmao the cleanest answer imo is that horikoshi is just trying to get to the end, doesn't really care about how hero society works except in the broadest strokes, and has never really been super interested in questions like "is there a military". the fight setup raises a lot of questions about how they're executing it because it literally isn't meant to do anything except delay tomura with recognizable second stringers on the way to the big finale, and consequently doesn't look anything like a plan to actually stop shigaraki. neither the question or the answer have anything to do with "would this story be better with guns (which it already has)". Valentin fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 23:15
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We're talking past each other. I don't feel like "this spinoff written by a different person established guns as viable" makes that much sense as an argument, especially when you consider the radically different scales MHA and Vigilantes operate on. Fundamentally, the answer to "why aren't they using guns" is the thing I originally said: they're more boring than superpowers. That's not a diegetic answer, no, but it's the one that matters.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:22
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Arist posted:We're talking past each other. I don't feel like "this spinoff written by a different person established guns as viable" makes that much sense as an argument, especially when you consider the radically different scales MHA and Vigilantes operate on. The spinoff was, presumably, vetted and approved by Horikoshi. The scale is another thing that is, itself, extremely mushy, because the story is having heroes simultaneously fighting invincible Superman-level demigods like AFO and Shigaraki and also fighting people like Toga and Spinner who are basically Spiderman or Batman-tier street villains who are operating on close to human power levels. Twice got killed by being stabbed with a sharp object, and his last act alive before his clones melted was to stab a hero to death with a sharp object. For the latter, I guess this is an agree to disagree thing, because there's tons of incredibly popular gun using superheroes who do superhero things besides "shoot man in head". Kanos fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 23:26
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there are even literally superheroes with guns in this superhero comic. in fact this whole conversation started because a character put a thing on to turn his superpower INTO gun.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:28
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Valentin posted:there are even literally superheroes with guns in this superhero comic. in fact this whole conversation started because a character put a thing on to turn his superpower INTO gun. Those guns don't count because despite being mechanical constructions attached to Bakugo's costume that look and operate exactly like guns, they're technically loaded with invisible exploding sweat instead of grenades or other explosives.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:31
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Regarding the specific question of 'If Bakugo's explosions are effective, why not use real weapons?', well Bakugo's explosions actually weren't effective until he power-levelled off-screen and got this crazy support-item. He blasted Shiggy straight in the face and all it did was knock his hand off, zero damage. In the war, he used his strongest attacks on Shiggy who outright made fun of them for being too weak for him to care about. So normal explosions don't necessarily cut it.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:45
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