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Dr. Faustus posted:You are right, BB. The entire GOP is increasingly made up of Jordan/Greene/Gaetz/Boebert types, or moving towards that end of the spectrum. Feels to me like the GOP members who are on the J6 commission are just about the only ones who would be willing play it straight, and as a result they have no future in the GOP.
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Jul 7, 2022 17:21
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Uglycat posted:Hey, if there a legal path to a death penalty for Trump? Easy there, Louise Mensch
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Jul 7, 2022 17:23
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Madkal posted:Easy there, Louise Mensch I mean, so far as I know there are two ways to make trum ineligible to hold public office. The first is for the house to impeach and the senate to convict. That seems unlikely. The other way is for the justice department to charge him with treason, and for a jury to convict. This seems much more likely. The latter option includes the possibility of sentencing trum to hang from gallows on the steps of the capital. So I'm like, let's go for it. Demand it. We live in a democracy, after all. Full-throated pursuit of the legal execution of Donald j Trump is the wise move here.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:18
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Uglycat posted:I mean, so far as I know there are two ways to make trum ineligible to hold public office. The US doesn't charge treason, as a rule. Someone's been indicted for treason literally two dozen times, ever. The Constitution sets the bar for conviction so high it's practically impossible. He needs to have levied war against the United States, or adhered to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Trump did not lead or train or arm the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers; his whole shtick is working through a half dozen intermediaries and speaking in terms of whims and hypotheticals, "wouldn't it be nice if somebody", like a mob boss. And the second half also doesn't apply, because the US hasn't had any foreign power declared as a war "enemy" since WWII. Not to mention that you require the testimony from two eyewitnesses to convict.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:38
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Considering that none of the insurrectionists have yet to be charged with treason and instead with sedition and seditious conspiracy, I HIGHLY doubt the Trumpster gets charged with treason. Even if he did (and this is a high bar - only about 30 people in US history have been charged with treason), no one has ever been executed from a conviction of treason by the federal court. I know there's a first time for everything, but I think the absolute most we can hope for is two dimes and the forfeiture of holding public office again.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:40
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I'm not saying hope for it. I'm saying, advocate for it, loudly.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:45
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Edward Mass posted:Considering that none of the insurrectionists have yet to be charged with treason and instead with sedition and seditious conspiracy, I HIGHLY doubt the Trumpster gets charged with treason. Even if he did (and this is a high bar - only about 30 people in US history have been charged with treason), no one has ever been executed from a conviction of treason by the federal court. I know there's a first time for everything, but I think the absolute most we can hope for is two dimes and the forfeiture of holding public office again. ...John Brown was convicted of treason and executed, as were the Rosenbergs (extremely unfairly). Like I don't think Trump is ever getting executed for treason, but to say no one has ever been convicted and executed of treason is flat out wrong. "The Constitution" posted:
That's all you need for a treason charge. Trump didn't train Proud Boys and Oathkeepers but he certainly wanted them to come to the Capitol with lots of weapons and direct them to Congress himself, which hey whoopsie doopsie they might hang Mike Pence for him, which he tacitly supports. ...Pretty sure that's "Levying War against the United States", and you could argue "Enemies" of the state are Insurrectionists who who want to kill the lawfully elected government if you were a good lawyer. The pardons for active Insurrectionists Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, and Michael Flynn reek of "aid and comfort". So yeah, there's definitely a case to be made, but I think they will go with sedition (probably seditious conspiracy) as the lighter charge. That's why it's very important to get evidence and clarify that Trump did in fact want to personally direct his mob at the Capitol to attack Congress, and he knew that's what they were there to do. If Trump knew about the plans by Proud Boys and Oathkeepers to hang Pence/ Kill members of Congress THAT is treason. TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 18:52
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TulliusCicero posted:...John Brown was convicted of treason and executed, as were the Rosenbergs (extremely unfairly). The Rosenbergs were convicted of espionage, not treason. And IIRC Brown was convicted of treason against specifically the Commonwealth of Virginia, not the United States which was a different state charge since technically nothing he did was a federal crime.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:56
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:So this means "the same as all of them"? Every Republican name I've learned in all of this has been a token liar, just pure loving snake-oil-changes-for-car salesmen. I grant there are career Democrats, but I feel like I can name some D who are "true believers" in the sense that they actually vote for their platform, though maybe they aren't wishy washy because the country is so damned conservative the progressive liberal leftists never have to change their message. Yeah, basically that. That kinda speaks to the uncomfortable (for me, anyway) trend of bringing out these people to testify or in the media sphere and praising them for their bravery and patriotism when they're just terrible people trying to wash off the stink that they chose to roll around in. I understand that the committee, etc. has to make a 'safe space to land' and give public pats on the head in order to help people get the balls to jump ship, but it feels dirty. These were, to a person, the self-interested, destructive fucks that planned, helped, and clapped at daddy's dumb tricks, and they knew exactly what was going on and what they had sold themselves for. They deserve to be shunned and ridiculed but if that were the norm they'd never jump ship in the first place. It's an awkward tradeoff at best. And yes. Ancient liches. The lot of them.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:57
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:The Rosenbergs were convicted of espionage, not treason. Yeah, that's why I specified federal court.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:58
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Seems to me treason charges are more likely if the electorate is loudly, angrily calling for it
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Jul 7, 2022 19:05
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TulliusCicero posted:...John Brown was convicted of treason and executed, as were the Rosenbergs (extremely unfairly). John Brown was convicted of treason against Virginia, under Virginia state law. John Brown never faced any federal charges, only state charges. Virginia state law's definition of treason is different from the federal definition. And if you have to precede your statement with "you could argue", then you do not actually have a solid basis for prosecuting someone for Treason, the number one big-deal crime in federal law with its own special treatment in the Constitution. The Treason Clause is specifically written to make it very difficult to use, and later Supreme Court jurisprudence has narrowed it even further. There's just no way that any reasonable prosecutor would take on the extra-hard-mode challenge of using the Treason Clause against an big fish like Trump who actually poses an ongoing danger. Especially when there's plenty of similar laws that don't carry the same Constitutional baggage.
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Jul 7, 2022 19:23
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:And IIRC Brown was convicted of treason against specifically the Commonwealth of Virginia, not the United States which was a different state charge since technically nothing he did was a federal crime. He committed a federal crime, in that he attacked a US military arsenal and armory. he just wasn't charged under federal law for it, though he could have been.
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Jul 7, 2022 19:36
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Man, it's a shame a jury can only consider one charge, and nobody can ever be charged with any other crime after their only trial Hang Donald trump.
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Jul 7, 2022 19:39
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Uglycat posted:Man, it's a shame a jury can only consider one charge, and nobody can ever be charged with any other crime after their only trial Hey I'm beginning to think this guy isn't a federal prosecutor
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Jul 7, 2022 19:49
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The problem with loudly shouting that your political opponents should be rounded up and murdered is you make the counter way too easy. "It's a witch hunt to consolidate Democrat power" - now a bunch of idiots believe trump is innocent simply to own the libs. By carefully plotting out the evidence without stating the charge, people come to their own conclusions that he's a treasonous piece of poo poo and the seeds are planted for a real trial.
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Jul 7, 2022 20:50
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https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1545102736114475011?s=20&t=TkZ8sHYrQmLPya4akbFX9Q
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Jul 7, 2022 21:01
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1545111712373915651 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-donald-trump-andrew-mccabe-7f9341e3b7593a16d64ca67cd141bca0 "The FBI inquiry began in the summer of 2016, months before Trump was elected. The bureau had learned that a former Trump campaign aide had been saying, before it was publicly known, that Russia had dirt on Trump’s Democratic rival for the White House, Hillary Clinton, in the form of stolen emails. Those emails were hacked from Democratic email accounts by Russian intelligence. They were released by the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks before the election in what U.S. officials have said was an effort to harm Clinton’s campaign and help Trump’s. Trump repeatedly called the investigation a “witch hunt.”"
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Jul 7, 2022 22:13
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TulliusCicero posted:That's why it's very important to get evidence and clarify that Trump did in fact want to personally direct his mob at the Capitol to attack Congress, and he knew that's what they were there to do. If Trump knew about the plans by Proud Boys and Oathkeepers to hang Pence/ Kill members of Congress THAT is treason. Pissed Ape Sexist posted:Yeah, basically that. That kinda speaks to the uncomfortable (for me, anyway) trend of bringing out these people to testify or in the media sphere and praising them for their bravery and patriotism ...  (they should have used MTG etc so it can't be misinterpreted) Uglycat posted:Seems to me treason charges are more likely if the electorate is loudly, angrily calling for it
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Jul 7, 2022 22:24
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:, and the lack of a bill in Congress? To be clear, there are bills in congress to codify abortion rights. There's even at least one that has passed the house several times over the years. Kill the filibuster and it’s done.
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Jul 8, 2022 03:46
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Just saw it reported the next hearing after Tuesday 07/12 will be Thursday 07/14, in the evening. If it's Sarah Matthews and Pat Cipollone and they are putting it on in prime time.... (reported from the hill with some confidence but not yet officially confirmed)
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Jul 8, 2022 03:48
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Dr. Faustus posted:Just saw it reported the next hearing after Tuesday 07/12 will be Thursday 07/14, in the evening. If it's Sarah Matthews and Pat Cipollone and they are putting it on in prime time.... Hopes aren’t up but I got quite the eyebrow raise going.
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Jul 8, 2022 03:53
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But like, secret service can't be upset about calling for the justice department to file charges, prosecute, and push for the harshest penalties. It also does not violate any obvious forum rule to advocate for this proposed legal outcome, even if it's a long shot that many (rightly, even!) think ridiculous. So, I'm saying it plainly. Donald Trump should be put to death for the actions outlined by the house committee. Donald Trump should not be allowed to live. He should be prosecuted for treason, convicted by a jury, and sentenced to be hanged. Legally.
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Jul 8, 2022 04:19
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https://www.ajc.com/politics/legislators-challenge-subpoenas-from-trump-special-grand-jury/O5UMESOGYZG4VMCGNCMMPSLNGA/ Fulton county, "we have legislative privilege and don't have to answer grand jury questions". https://www.wistv.com/2022/07/06/lawyers-sen-graham-release-statement-ga-election-probe-subpoena/ Fulton subpoena, Senator Lindsey Graham: "No". PhantomOfTheCopier fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jul 8, 2022 |
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Jul 8, 2022 04:24
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Uglycat posted:
But I am against the death penalty. Stop making me feel conflicted like this. And I son't think Trump will be charged with poo poo. Maybe in GA but I'll believe it when I see it. Not only do I think he totally skates on any of this, I still put good money on him being president again in two years.
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Jul 8, 2022 04:41
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It's clear that Trump /cannot/ be allowed to be president again, and we know that if he is, he will continue destroying the federal apparatus in the worst ways. We know he has no loyalty to the constitution, and while neither do I, he swore an oath and took the reins. That makes charging him with treason much more reasonable than charging some qult fool that breached the capital. Not just because he encouraged his allies to mastermind and execute the coup, but doubly so because he took an oath, and it's an oath that federal courts are obliged to care about. It's clear he must not be allowed to be president, and there are only two legal ways to achieve that that I know of: one is for the senate to vote to convict, and also to ban him from holding public office; the other is to charge him with and convict him of treason. The GOP will have a much more difficult time interfering with the court. Moreover; preventing Trump from holding office is necessary, but not sufficient. He built a movement, he deceived millions, and this has further destabilized things. That movement must end. There must not be any candidates for office running on a 'Trump did nothing wrong' platform. When Donald Trump is handed down a sentence of death, all the agents and assets that have taken a similar oath will be compelled to refrain from voicing public support for him. He may appeal. It may go to the Supreme Court (would it tho? I don't know). Hey may be granted a stay or commutation or whatever (I'm against). But like, the chud qanon Maga movement has to be kicked in the balls, and creating legal precedence for regarding trumps actions as treasonous is all you can do to discourage the next flynn, or whatever. If Donald Trump is not convicted for the treason clearly outlined by the house select committee, it will continue to be debatable whether insurrection is free speech. When he is sentenced to death, however, the Shockwave will significantly weaken the fascist machine surrounding trump. It might even provide the opportunity for the gop to purge trumpism, but at this point I'm opposed to that party making any gains ever again.
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Jul 8, 2022 04:46
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Uglycat posted:If Donald Trump is not convicted for the treason clearly outlined by the house select committee, it will continue to be debatable whether insurrection is free speech. When he is sentenced to death, however, the Shockwave will significantly weaken the fascist machine surrounding trump. you have your 'if' and 'when' statements muddled
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Jul 8, 2022 04:48
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Records show Trump/Jr was removed from the board at Truth Social but they claim he is still chairman. Jr was always just along for the ride anyway. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...m-denies-claim/ "Former President Donald Trump was removed from the board of the Trump Media and Technology Group (TMTG)—the company behind Truth Social—on June 8, just weeks before the company was hit with subpoenas as part of federal investigations into its business dealings, according to the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, but Truth Social called the report “fake news.”" "Donald Trump Jr., along with former White House staffers Kash Patel and Scott Glabe, were also among a group of six board members removed on June 8, according to the Herald-Tribune, citing state business records. It is unclear what role, if any, Trump still has with the company, but records reportedly suggest he is no longer chairman." https://eu.heraldtribune.com/story/news/2022/07/07/trump-leaves-board-social-media-company-florida-federal-investigation/7828534001/ "Trump, the chairman of Trump Media and Technology Group, was one of six board members removed on June 8, state business records show. Among the board members removed were Kashyap Patel, Trump's former point man in the White House; Scott Glabe, a former assistant to Trump who was counsel for the media company; and Donald Trump, Jr." lol "Trump was banned by Twitter for inflammatory remarks concerning the insurrection." "Four days later, on July 1, a grand jury in the Southern District of New York handed the company another federal subpoena, an action that typically means a potential criminal investigation is in progress. The investigations appear to be related to a proposed merger between Trump's media company and a blank-check company called Digital World Acquisitions Corp., according to a recent regulatory filing. Digital World is a special purpose acquisition company, or SPAC. Companies such as these raise money to go public with the intent of finding a company to merge with. SPACs are prohibited from finding a partner before going public, but the SEC is investigating potential talks between the two companies that were possibly premature, according to a filing. The merger between the two companies could reportedly mean $1.3 billion in capital and a listing on the stock exchange for the new company, according to the New York Times."
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Jul 8, 2022 04:55
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Uglycat posted:He built a movement, he deceived millions, and this has further destabilized things. That movement must end. Far more likely I will hard nope out of this mess before November 2023 or thereabouts. I'm like that Chloe chick from Fight Club. "The good news is I no longer fear death." Because it's always seemed terribly stupid to suggest we are living through the build-up to Nazi Germany. How can I deny that any longer? But I'll survive the J6 Committee no matter the outcome, because it has been incredibly affirming to witness people calling out the madness that was ignored until June. That ain't much but it's all I've got, and it's enough for now.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:14
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Uglycat posted:. Why do you think that? I don't really see how that would be the case. He'll become a martyr, and his supporters will endlessly decry the injustices imposed on him by biased Democrats and the evil deep state. It'd make him a hero and forever immortalize him in fascist thought. quote:He may appeal. It may go to the Supreme Court (would it tho? I don't know). Hey may be granted a stay or commutation or whatever (I'm against). But like, the chud qanon Maga movement has to be kicked in the balls, and creating legal precedence for regarding trumps actions as treasonous is all you can do to discourage the next flynn, or whatever. It would most definitely go to the Supreme Court. Treason Clause cases often do, thanks to the extremely specific requirements placed on that charge by the actual text of the US Constitution. I don't think you're really getting just how much harder it is to convict for treason compared to any other crime, let alone how much harder it is to get the death penalty for it.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:21
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I get that it's harder, in principle. What I'm pointing out is that Trump made it easy, by his demonstrable actions.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:25
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Uglycat posted:I get that it's harder, in principle. do you understand that if you can be sentenced to death by your political foes that losing power is then tantamount to suicide? So you might as well stage a coup? the romans understood the poo poo out of this, and that was some time ago.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:34
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sebmojo posted:do you understand that if you can be sentenced to death by your political foes that losing power is then tantamount to suicide? So you might as well stage a coup? the romans understood the poo poo out of this, and that was some time ago. To be fair, Trump was prepared to stage a coup anyway, so that's a bit baked in I don't know why I'm being fair though as the idea of such a prosecution is nonsensical.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:40
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Page 45: Trump was prepared to stage a coup.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:42
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sebmojo posted:do you understand that if you can be sentenced to death by your political foes that losing power is then tantamount to suicide? So you might as well stage a coup? the romans understood the poo poo out of this, and that was some time ago. Certainly the standard should be very high; but if there is no standard that can be met, why make it a crime at all? In any case, while you might advocate for treason not being a crime punishable by death - it is on the books. And I can't imagine a standard for "treason" chargrd that the house select committee has not yet already demonstrated.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:45
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Uglycat posted:but if there is no standard that can be met, why make it a crime at all? The law often doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to. It's the law.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:53
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Uglycat posted:Certainly the standard should be very high; but if there is no standard that can be met, why make it a crime at all? In any case, while you might advocate for treason not being a crime punishable by death - it is on the books. i mean, cut to civil war 2.0 if you like.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:54
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Uglycat posted:th. As a practical matter, he has the right to a jury trial, and assuming competent counsel, he will almost always be able to find at least one CHUD to hang any jury. More importantly there isn't enough time to convict him before the next election. He'd be able to bond out before trial and still campaign, and any case would take st least two years to get to trial. Once in office he can order any federal prosecution to end and he can claim federal immunity against state prosecutors. The time to charge him with anything was February 2021. It's too late now.
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Jul 8, 2022 06:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:assuming competent counsel, There you go. What competent counsel will work for him? He's replenished his coffers but his reputation would force any firm to be paid up front. He often doesn’t take legal advice he’s paying for and any firm that would take him as a client will make half the country (and its potential clients) hate them.
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Jul 8, 2022 07:08
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The power of "rich white former president" means he doesn't even need a competent lawyer. Trump is going to die never having seen the inside of a jail.
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Jul 8, 2022 07:30
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