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Kibayasu posted:Its much faster and lighter, wheeled instead of tracked. Its also far more accurate (when used correctly) then the typical artillery cannon in Ukraine so instead of blanketing an area with hundreds of shells to hopefully hit something you want to the rockets hit where you want them to +/- some margin of error. cinci zoo sniper posted:Kind of. M142 is mounted on a truck that goes ~80 km/h on highway, and M270 is mounted on a Bradley frame (tracks), but can still go ~60 km/h. I doubt either of those are being driven at max speed on rural Ukrainian roads, unless the Russian army alone isn’t meeting the desired health hazard levels. Sounds fast and accurate enough to hit a target and maybe skiddaddle before they get located.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:34 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 04:05 |
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Kind of. M142 is mounted on a truck that goes ~80 km/h on highway, and M270 is mounted on a Bradley frame (tracks), but can still go ~60 km/h. I doubt either of those are being driven at max speed on rural Ukrainian roads, unless the Russian army alone isn’t meeting the desired health hazard levels. Judging by self reporting in the GiP Idiots thread, the LMTV can go a good bit faster than 80km/h, even loaded down. If you really, really need something done, pile a few "whos" into a truck, give them vague directions "where" and tell them "what". They will figure out the "how", leaving you to wonder "why?!"
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:42 |
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The big difference with high Mars vs Russian mlrs is accuracy. As far as I've been told and himars system can hit a pin on the ground with extreme accuracy
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 00:57 |
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Oh hi, Mars!
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:21 |
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The biggest advantage of M142s vs M270s is strategic mobility. It weighs a whole lot less than an M270, and is quite a bit narrower, both of which are a pretty big deal for air, sea, and land transport. The half-sized launcher is a lot less of an issue when you’re firing PGMs anyway.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:23 |
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Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective?
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:25 |
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A big part of their accuracy over the M270 is the newer munitions iirc (and also lots of integrated support). The new vehicle is compatible with the trucks adopted in the 90s as well as being lighter, but the launcher is mostly/entirely the same. Or in other words, if we gave the russians 12 to make it even they still couldn't do more than dumb grad barrages they already do. Incidentally, briefly after high school I wanted to go for an army career like my dad and my signed MOS was MLRS crew. I decided gently caress that (which is shockingly legal up until you actually report to boot camp.) If I'd done that I'd be halfway through my second enlistment atm. First time I've ever regretted it. I could be training ukrainians instead of posting. Prolly the first good thing the US military has done since 1945. The X-man cometh posted:Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective? Entenched tube artillery is really hard to blow up, all you can do is make the crew run away/die and kill their trucks. However, entrenched tube artillery is just a cool war diorama without any shells. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:32 |
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The X-man cometh posted:Weren't the HIMARS needed for counter-artillery? Or are there so many Russian artillery pieces that hitting ammo dumps are more effective? I mean you kind of answered your own question. Would you rather destroy an artillery army one piece at a time or an ammo dump a thousand shells at a time? Artillery is good for nothing if it has no shells. Especially with the rate of fire that Russia is conducting. The himars systems are driving around popping ammo dumps and if that continues and becomes more and more effective, counteroffensives will be much more likely to create decisive strikes. Interestingly enough the Soviets perfected this method which is called deep operation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation Ukraine cannot possibly neutralize every single artillery battery that Russia can bring to bear. But they can neutralize the flow of supply. We've seen that on numerous account during this kerfuffle. Unfortunately the ukrainians were to spread out defending a much larger Frontline than they are now. Which is partially why we didn't see catastrophic counteroffensives occur with large pockets of Russian soldiers trapped. What must be understood is Russia is conducting this offensive like it's World War i. And unfortunately World War I had a sequel which proved a lot of the concepts in World War I as false. This is bad for Russia with a more technologically diverse equipment arsenal Ukraine will eventually be able to push the tide back. They have a major river behind them right now and that's going to become very decisive in the next few weeks. If they're able to stop the Russian offensive at the river, that maybe it for territorial gains on Russia's behalf. Now the hope is Ukraine gets longer range artillery because they are able to argue they're not targeting civilians or Russia proper. If they are able to get hundred plus kilometer guided systems they will be able to sabotage rail networks on the Ukraine Russian border as well as inside Ukraine air bases that Russia may be operating out of. With this they can effectively neutralize Russia's ability to project softening attacks prior to offensive. If anyone has counters to any of this or wants explanation I'd love to talk about it as it is really important to understand the logistical side and tactical side of this war more so than just looking at a map of front lines and moving red or blue highlights.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 01:39 |
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Incidentally, briefly after high school I wanted to go for an army career like my dad and my signed MOS was MLRS crew. I decided gently caress that (which is shockingly legal up until you actually report to boot camp.)l In the United States Armed Forces it’s actually ‘legal’ with no consequences up until the point you graduate from boot camp. I had a good friend who enlisted in the Navy, went off to the Great Lakes for basic, made it 2/3rds of the way through and decided, “I don’t want to loving do this.” So at muster in the morning he told his drill instructor he quit, the drill instructor did what drill instructors do, and my friend just said, “gently caress you, make me” then sat down. He says it took about an hour and a half of threatening him and yelling at him, before they just gave up and arranged for transportation for him home. Before that graduation ceremony, your enlistment is not official, so literally my friend went on with his life with no indication he had ever joined the service. He later went on to join the Air Force, made it through basic, and stayed in 9 years. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:13 |
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Adding to the above: one huge strength of Western artillery systems vs. Soviet-era arms is sensor fusion. It doesn't even have to be direct, as long as the concepts are understood. Stand-ins can collate and meld data. As long as they can communicate what they've found, the job of killing and surviving gets easier for people on the front lines. Coupled with radar to track projectiles mid-air, counter battery fire can be initiated before the enemy's shells even land. All in one system of systems. This can be handy with cruder forms of ranging/recon as well. Sound and flash ranging, drone footage, recon teams radioing their observations back, if all that data can be made sense of and sent as far forward as possible, chances of success increase exponentially. Can't hit what you can see, can't avoid what you don't know is coming. That goes for deep strike targets, too. Look at recent examples: A Ukrainian sees Russian troops in his house on security cameras via a remote feed. Calls it in to the military, relays coordinates, they get a drone in position, confirm, direct fires. Ukrainians on the street see Russian positions, post on Twitter, military picks that up, confirms, directs fire appropriately. Commercial drones in UF service rove around, find command centers, alert command, command sends some HE their way. Communication saves the day. Training saves the day. Even if we, in the West, didn't give the UAF much equipment pre-war, they were taught how a modern military communicates and commands. There is a wealth of knowledge from the "GWOT" to choose from, and what that was built upon as well.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:20 |
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ZombieLenin posted:Before that graduation ceremony, your enlistment is not official, so literally my friend went on with his life with no indication he had ever joined the service. No, it’s official. But inside of 6 months time in service, it’s very easy to get a rapid, uncharacterized separation for anything from failing a course to just refusing to train and saying you want to go home. An uncharacterized chapter doesn’t really raise flags when joining later. If inside 6 months of service and you get in trouble for something criminal or a serious medical issue, they are supposed to do that paperwork differently.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:30 |
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madeintaipei posted:Adding to the above: one huge strength of Western artillery systems vs. Soviet-era arms is sensor fusion. Is it truly the case that contemporary Russian systems don't do any of this?
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:43 |
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Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them. Now Russia suffers the consequences of this 50 year long push for smarter and smarter weaponry. https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0310bombs/ Why is this important to the Ukraine war? Well, the longer this goes the more US weaponry will go to Ukraine and the difference in accuracy will change aswell. We are now seeing a way higher counter cruise missile ratio. (This was posted in the thread already). If Ukraine can effectively use 12 HIMARS st once they can essentially neutral out the Russian supply flow and create a dire situation for Russia. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:53 |
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 02:57 |
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Discendo Vox posted:Is it truly the case that contemporary Russian systems don't do any of this? Sure, if they have enough systems, and if it works, and there are enough people who know how to accomplish much with it. Compared to what Ukraine had before, it's a major step forward. Not to denigrate the UAF pre-2014, and what they've developed around then and since then, but they only had what fell in their laps after the Soviet Union collapsed. Even in peace time, Ukraine sought to leverage what was left with what they could incorporate from the West into older systems. Export orders to non-Russian aligned powers operating Soviet arms were meant to springboard UAF equipment acquisition. This... never worked out. Formed relationships, formed more concrete ones after 2014, but they were never able to get far.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:05 |
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afaik the most contemporary russian systems absolutely do integrate, but stuff not made or modernized in the last 10-15 years is not integrated in a particularly significant way. They've also been heavily sanctioned for the last 8 years so a lot less of their stuff is modernized/updated than was meant to be by this point.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:10 |
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them. The US lost 15 B-52s total in the entirety of the Vietnam war. 744 were built, with the last in 1962.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:19 |
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ZombieLenin posted:In the United States Armed Forces it’s actually ‘legal’ with no consequences up until the point you graduate from boot camp. Ehhhh, sorta. Until you actually ship out to basic you're nobody as far as the DoD is concerned. Potential recruit, maybe, but nobody outside of the recruiter/MEPS has seen you and nobody cares. Once you ship, you're in the system and collecting a paycheck. You have been given payment, room/board/food etc. so you're theirs. However, prior to finishing basic a lot of people are given the boot for "failure to adapt". This can take place within the first 180 days, at the commander's discretion. So there's potential grey area. 99.99% of the time though it's quicker and easier for the commander to just sign off on a failure to adapt and you're let go, no harm, no foul, uncharacterized discharge. If you're that guy and piss off the commander they can gently caress with you on some details and make your life pretty miserable. After 180 days have passed from shipping to basic this type of discharge is no longer an option.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:27 |
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Not sure how many people know this but the US made a huge push for smart bombs because of the Vietnam war. They ran out of b-52 crews because the Chinese/vietnamese AA troops were insanely good at destroying them. Uh, I wouldn't call the loss of 17 B-52 airframes to enemy action (+2 landed write-offs) as "running out of B-52 crews." Even if you count every B-52 lost in Vietnam, bringing the total to 31, that's still a small fraction of the ~750 produced - all already in service long before any of the air campaigns started (just a reminder that the very last B-52 produced rolled off the production line in 1962). Even Linebacker II, where the vast, VAST majority of combat losses happened (15 of those 17), had a loss rate of less than 2% compared to sorties conducted. Like, the article you linked even mentioned that precision guided munitions were already in heavy testing and then limited usage during even early stages of the air war. Lack of results in Vietnam may have accelerated the push, but the USAF had already decided they really wanted PGMs before it even started. Analysis about how incredibly effective modern PGMs are is right on the money though.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:28 |
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DOD transcript highlights from 8 July. https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3088129/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing/ Short version: -New delivery of HIMARS will bring total from 8 to 12. -HIMARS effective in targeting C2 and disrupting Russian plans, no specific details -Denies HIMARS has been hit by Russia -Denies HIMARS has been used to target any targets inside Russia proepr -1,000 "more precise" 155mm rounds, absolutely refuses to confirm or deny if Excalibur. Edit: "more precise" not "additional precise" -Will not comment on Russian claims of striking Harpoon systems -Sounds like no plan to issue out ATACMS to Ukraine -NASAMS fielding is months away -There is zero plan for any pilot training for Ukrainian pilots on Western aircraft SDO posted:The United States first initiated a training program for Ukraine in 2015 -- yes, 2015 -- on helping Ukraine with its capacity to man, train, equip, deploy and sustain combat arms units. It is this background that's important for understanding how early in the war, Ukraine was able to face a larger, more capable Russian force, able to stay nimble, empower subordinates, achieve commendable successes, already be trained on certain capabilities that the United States as well as other countries had provided -- notably Javelins but not only Javelins -- and therefore, Russia was walking into a battle back in February with a far more capable military than it expected and that it -- it had frankly faced back in 2014. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 03:36 |
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mlmp08 posted:No, it’s official. But inside of 6 months time in service, it’s very easy to get a rapid, uncharacterized separation for anything from failing a course to just refusing to train and saying you want to go home. An uncharacterized chapter doesn’t really raise flags when joining later. If inside 6 months of service and you get in trouble for something criminal or a serious medical issue, they are supposed to do that paperwork differently. Yup. Failure To Adapt
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 04:17 |
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https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19 Jeysus gently caress Germany. German embassador complains that Canadian government is "under pressure by Ukraine" to not return a Siemens turbine to North Stream which was under repairs.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 04:48 |
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It is common knowledge that the "babushkas selling pierogis at a farmer's market in Moosomin" lobby has an iron grasp on Trudeau
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 05:07 |
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Relax Germany, it would be political suicide for him to let those turbines out of the country. They ain't getting them back so stop asking.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 06:21 |
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Sekenr posted:https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19 Look if Germany wants Kitchener, Ontario renamed to Berlin that badly we'll do it, but we are not giving Russia anything of any form in this year 2022.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 07:32 |
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https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1545655036432220162?s=20&t=6wf08VwzcY4ZKw6ZD9DoQQ
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 07:36 |
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MT-LB Armor 14 mm max LOL
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:04 |
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Crow Buddy posted:Relax Germany, it would be political suicide for him to let those turbines out of the country. Reuters is reporting “a decision to return the turbine had already been taken” as of 20 hours ago. It sounds like they might be getting it back after all. quote:BERLIN, July 8 (Reuters) - Germany on Friday confirmed that the government had received a positive signal from Canada regarding the delivery of a turbine needed for the maintenance of the Nord Stream 1 gas pipeline to Germany, but could not say that the turbine had been delivered. e to add: Sekenr posted:https://twitter.com/kommersant/status/1545516712489099270?t=D2oRxcUBuiCRRLgjf6jMUA&s=19 This article is based entirely on a Globe and Mail article that will probably be easier for folks here to read, as it’s in English and not Russian. I just realized it happens to cite the Reuters article above. It is reported that it’s closer to being delivered than not: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-poised-to-return-russian-turbine-to-germany-critical-to-gas/ quote:Canada and Germany are close to reaching a deal that would permit the return of a Russian gas turbine whose absence Moscow is blaming for its decision to reduce gas supplies to Europe, according to a senior Canadian official. e: More recent update that did not show up in a Google News search but did on Twitter: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ukraine-russia-turbine-1.6515344 posted:
mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:09 |
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quote:https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-poised-to-return-russian-turbine-to-germany-critical-to-gas/ Surely delivering the sanctioned goods to a third party with the knowledge that they plan to forward it to a sanctioned party would its self be a violation of the sanctions. norp fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:28 |
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mlmp08 posted:DOD transcript highlights from 8 July. Couple thoughts First, information coming out of Ukraine recently is curiously locked down currently and part of what several of the questions are getting at is that there are a few things clearly and conspicuously in the public sphere of discussion, eg the entire fight against the Russian push in the Donbass and the himars. It seems like there's been a broad clamp down on information flowing out because it's pretty clear that Russia was getting useable stuff from pretty much everything that was floating around in the public sphere. many of the osint folks seem to be tracking certain actions a lot less publicly and a much greater portion of the information is coming directly from state-affiliated sources. I don't think there's actually a ton to read into that beyond just that people making decisions realized that too much useable information was filtering out and it's perennially good practice to clamp down on anything operationally relevant. Second, I'm once again reminded that Ukraine had ~5000 combat ready troops in 2014 and just how insane it is that in less than 8 years they put together a force that fought the Russian army to a stand still. Even with generous foreign assistance the magnitude of that improvement is hard to fathom and they did most of that while using primarily soviet leftovers and light, infantry-portable weaponry, they fought the Russians to a pause before the heavy equipment tap really even opened. They destroyed and damaged and captured a significant amount of Russia's entire modernized tank stocks. They sank the Moskva. I can see why Russian mil bloggers are apoplectic. That Russia just sat by while Ukraine armed themselves to that extent is one of the costliest mistakes Russia has made in the last 20 years. Third, re the keeping track of where weapons end up: in the initial round of assistance to Ukraine the US helped them set up an inventory control system that basically mirrors what the US does. They in all likelihood do know where pretty much everything ends up. Shes Not Impressed posted:https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1545655036432220162?s=20&t=6wf08VwzcY4ZKw6ZD9DoQQ Russia has quietly squeezed about as much mobilization as the country as possible without just openly declaring full mobilization. At pretty much every stage where there has been a question of whether they will accept a setback or will they mobilize more resources? they've gone with mobilizing more resources. Basically Russia is a lot farther down the path of escalation than I think is widely recognized or appreciated. A lot of the seemingly idiosyncratic images and messages coming out of the donbass (eg the pictures of troops with mosins and a lot of the prominent howling about how hosed separatist militaries are) were not so much accurate statements of affairs but were intended to pressure political leaders to commit more resources and it sure seems to have worked. That's not to say that they weren't also accurate, just that the messaging was clearly intended to force greater commitment to the conflict. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jul 9, 2022 |
# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:31 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Second, I'm once again reminded that Ukraine had ~5000 combat ready troops in 2014 and just how insane it is that in less than 8 years they put together a force that fought the Russian army to a stand still. Even with generous foreign assistance the magnitude of that improvement is hard to fathom and they did most of that while using primarily soviet leftovers and light, infantry-portable weaponry, they fought the Russians to a pause before the heavy equipment tap really even opened. They destroyed and damaged and captured a significant amount of Russia's entire modernized tank stocks. They sank the Moskva. I can see why Russian mil bloggers are apoplectic. That Russia just sat by while Ukraine armed themselves to that extent is one of the costliest mistakes Russia has made in the last 20 years. hmmm, i wonder what the chance of success would have been if they had just gone for the full decapitation strike and reinstated a friendly government right off the bat in 2014. maybe with that initial shock of hostilities and the lack of 8 years of undeclared war to harden the opinion of the population they could have pulled it off
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:40 |
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norp posted:Surely delivering the sanctioned goods to a third party with the knowledge that they plan to forward it to a sanctioned party would its self be a violation of the sanctions. It sounds like they might be seeking “a formal sanctions exemption, justified on humanitarian grounds by Germany's energy needs.” Not sure most observers would be sympathetic to a humanitarian appeal for Germany’s energy needs though.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:41 |
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:hmmm, i wonder what the chance of success would have been if they had just gone for the full decapitation strike and reinstated a friendly government right off the bat in 2014. maybe with that initial shock of hostilities and the lack of 8 years of undeclared war to harden the opinion of the population they could have pulled it off I don't think there's any question whatsoever that they would've accomplished it in 2014. It would've been extremely messy and probably would've turned into a god awful civil war for a while, but yeah they absolutely could've destroyed Ukrainian institutions to the extent that there was either someone russia-friendly in charge or there were no ukrainian institutions left to build up.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 08:43 |
Scholz's Zeitenwende predictiably turns into smoke and mirrors that boils down to a shrinking Defense budget which is only propped up by the 100 billion "Sondervermögen" until after the next federal Election, achieving the 2% NATO goal not every year but over a "multiyear average". https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1545505564683374594 But please Canada send us the Gas Turbine for Putin, otherwise our house of cards that is used to shield the voters from the worst natural gas price spikes will falter.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 09:59 |
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Canada should drop the loving turbine from a plane over the god drat Bundestag (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:31 |
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Aren't things like that turbine normally shipped around the world using the AN-225?
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:33 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Russia has quietly squeezed about as much mobilization as the country as possible without just openly declaring full mobilization. At pretty much every stage where there has been a question of whether they will accept a setback or will they mobilize more resources? they've gone with mobilizing more resources. Basically Russia is a lot farther down the path of escalation than I think is widely recognized or appreciated. It seems to fly under the radar even though it needs to be accounted for, because otherwise you could underestimate just how expensively russia is committing and how deep they're going in just to sustain this war on their end, just to get fought to a standstill regardless
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 11:51 |
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steinrokkan posted:Canada should drop the loving turbine from a plane over the god drat Bundestag (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:10 |
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Some whining again. https://kenigtiger.livejournal.com/2165728.html quote:Amazing.
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:58 |
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# ? May 28, 2024 04:05 |
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Tangentially related to Ukraine, but we are going to start the global consequences of the WiU. The Sri Lankan president has fled his palace https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1545691255665217536 https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1545704506104713216 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-62077109 quote:Lately, the cost of food, of cooking gas, of clothes, transport, and even what electricity the state will allow you to have, has sky-rocketed so egregiously as the rupee's value plummeted, that even largesse from the moneyed has been in short supply. We will be seeing a lot more destabilization, famines and refugees as this global crises brings already fragile nations to the brink of total economic collapse. All thanks to
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# ? Jul 9, 2022 12:59 |