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hobocrunch posted:I see the entire Pantheon community asking for slow combat (because they're in their 60's now) and I sit here and wonder how they're going to like playing a video game that's dead in a week because no one wants to play a game where it takes several minutes of auto attacking to kill an enemy Thinking about all these vaporware old school MMOs that promise really elaborate features and poo poo that, if they ever launched, would shut down in less than 12 months because they were too expensive to develop and too niche to recover the costs At least that minecraft EQ clone they're developing is probably cheap enough
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Jul 4, 2022 14:18
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hobocrunch posted:I think lore was better back then- and because lore was better you had an attention to detail that was better. Such as specific towns acting specific ways rather than just some quest designers whim for that day. I was being facetious by the way. Modern MMOs suck rear end.
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Jul 4, 2022 22:21
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Node posted:The 90s owned dude. Objectively untrue
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Jul 4, 2022 23:07
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Tabletops posted:Objectively untrue maybe but have u considered:   
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Jul 4, 2022 23:42
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The 90s had some really really great stuff like Super Nintendo and Playstation and grunge music and pogs It also had some really lovely stuff like Newt Gingrich
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Jul 5, 2022 00:42
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FrostyPox posted:The 90s had some really really great stuff like Super Nintendo and Playstation and grunge music and pogs it was also the Pre-Shrek era, it had that going for it too
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Jul 5, 2022 00:49
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i like shrek actually but man speaking of michael myers remember when austin powers was like new and still funny, that was pretty good
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Jul 5, 2022 00:52
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FrostyPox posted:The 90s had some really really great stuff like Super Nintendo and Playstation and grunge music and pogs Newt seems almost quaint at this point
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Jul 5, 2022 00:59
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Also I really like slow combat. I'd rather have combat where you're making an important choice every 20 seconds than one where you're hitting the same 3 buttons every 5 seconds.
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Jul 5, 2022 01:12
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Sachant posted:Also I really like slow combat. I'd rather have combat where you're making an important choice every 20 seconds than one where you're hitting the same 3 buttons every 5 seconds. I feel like that's not mutually exclusive though. I think you can have both of those aspects, and I do think there's room for action combat (and by action I probably mean some hybrid thing) whilst still having a tonne of depth and thought go into what you are doing. I just think the issue right now is there's this seeming requirement to add in fast paced dodging to every action combat MMO, and it's spammed- by everyone. Personally that's where I draw the line because not only is it not deep to have everyone just spamming iFrames, it also forces the developer to make everyone rely on that rather than actually good strategies and defences. iFrames are a cancer to MMOs that I think people don't realise how much damage they do. To me it's just this huge portion of "time" that your character is using to essentially be like "No I dont want to deal with that" and I find that extremely shallow. Also it's an aesthetic and thematic copout. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 02:56
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hobocrunch posted:I feel like that's not mutually exclusive though. I think you can have both of those aspects, and I do think there's room for action combat (and by action I probably mean some hybrid thing) whilst still having a tonne of depth and thought go into what you are doing. Okay but I explicitly don't want fast combat. I want slow combat. I want downtime to talk (via text) during combat, and you can't do that in action combat or in fast-paced tab target games.
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Jul 5, 2022 05:45
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Sachant posted:Okay but I explicitly don't want fast combat. I want slow combat. I want downtime to talk (via text) during combat, and you can't do that in action combat or in fast-paced tab target games. Okay look whatever. I've said my piece and your opinion is valid. Is Pantheon's combat slow enough for you currently or do you want to go slower?
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Jul 5, 2022 06:44
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Slower. The latest monk video was pretty rotation-based. FWIW I'm much more interested in M&M and ECO though than Pantheon, in large part for that reason.
Sachant fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 06:56
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M&M dev said in their discord they want the corpse runs to be more punishing than EQ corpse runs. Lol
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Jul 5, 2022 09:06
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Vinestalk posted:M&M dev said in their discord they want the corpse runs to be more punishing than EQ corpse runs. What are these games? I assume ECO is this one in EA on Steam but M&M? Might and Magic?
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Jul 5, 2022 09:25
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I believe he means Monsters & Memories?
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Jul 5, 2022 09:38
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It's not enough to have corpse runs, you have to make up for two decades of never having to deal with corpse runs in other MMOs.
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Jul 5, 2022 11:40
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hobocrunch posted:What are these games? I assume ECO is this one in EA on Steam but M&M? Might and Magic? https://monstersandmemories.com quote:Monsters & Memories started as a discussion between MMO fans during a series of livestreams, about what it would be like to create a niche, smaller budget / indie game, in the style of a Classic Fantasy MMO, but utilizing modern day tools and development practices. they're actually making progress, here's their development roadmap: https://trello.com/b/wjN4owwf/monsters-and-memories-roadmap
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Jul 5, 2022 14:15
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The slowness of EQ's combat is vastly overstated at least once you're grouping. Our downtime was mostly waiting for the spawn timer because we'd get so efficient at clearing wherever we were camping.
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Jul 5, 2022 14:39
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Groovelord Neato posted:The slowness of EQ's combat is vastly overstated at least once you're grouping. Our downtime was mostly waiting for the spawn timer because we'd get so efficient at clearing wherever we were camping. I love this aspect. It becomes a social thing and builds a community. I remember hanging out in Dreadlands and KC for weeks and being in groups with a mix of the same people day in and out. Someone would /shout cleric lfg and someone could vouch for them “oh hey grab that cleric she’s good” and we’d more or less get to level as a community rather than an isolated mob-churning factory.
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Jul 5, 2022 15:28
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Vinestalk posted:M&M dev said in their discord they want the corpse runs to be more punishing than EQ corpse runs. hobocrunch posted:What are these games? I assume ECO is this one in EA on Steam but M&M? Might and Magic? Sachant fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 17:17
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Sachant posted:Also I really like slow combat. I'd rather have combat where you're making an important choice every 20 seconds than one where you're hitting the same 3 buttons every 5 seconds. What important choice
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Jul 5, 2022 22:30
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Six AM posted:What important choice press dragon kick every 20 seconds
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Jul 5, 2022 22:43
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I like having resources that don't replenish quickly that you need to decide if it's worth using or not in this fight, or saving for the next.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:46
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MMO quality over time correlates positively with the cooldown of Lay on Hands
Flavahbeast fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 22:51
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Lay on Hands being an hour CD get out of jail free card is cool, but it's not like a lot of decision making goes into using it. Shield bash on the other hand- when the mob is below 20%, you may decide to hold onto it for a few seconds in case the mob runs! The drama, the skill! Sweat pouring down my face.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:20
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I like slow combat because I like being able to talk to people or listen to a podcast or just not think at all.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:21
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Jokes aside there's some interesting decision making around things like whether to drop an additional flash of light for more aggro or hold onto that mana for the next fight. It doesn't really matter from the point of view of success or failure but it does impact leveling efficiency. When sachant talks about combat in wow or whatever like it's mindless I just roll my eyes into the back of my head, but there's value in tilting the most efficient way to level towards "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" if you don't want people to be constantly pressuring each other to sprint through dungeons without saying a word and dropping group the moment things go wrong.
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Jul 6, 2022 00:26
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30.5 Days posted:I just roll my eyes into the back of my head
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Jul 6, 2022 01:53
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LuckyCat posted:I love this aspect. It becomes a social thing and builds a community. I remember hanging out in Dreadlands and KC for weeks and being in groups with a mix of the same people day in and out. Someone would /shout cleric lfg and someone could vouch for them “oh hey grab that cleric she’s good” and we’d more or less get to level as a community rather than an isolated mob-churning factory. Oh yeah when I played P99 last year for a few months with some other goons it was a blast - I got into it way more than I did back on live back in actual 1999 because with school and sharing a PC I couldn't camp like everyone seemed to be able to as a kid. I wished P99 had a proper population but it was nice being the tank that people around our range as we leveled knew was the guy to grab to the point they'd get me ported across the world to join them in whatever the next spot was.
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Jul 6, 2022 13:23
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Sachant posted:I like having resources that don't replenish quickly that you need to decide if it's worth using or not in this fight, or saving for the next. Sounds like what you want is not, in fact, an MMO
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Jul 6, 2022 13:59
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Malachite_Dragon posted:Sounds like what you want is not, in fact, an MMO No there are definitely MMOs that do this and they're great. I'd just like to see more of them.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:11
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it owns when screwing up doesn't necessarily instantly kill your group but instead penalizes you by consuming more slowly-replenishing resources, like the individual encounters aren't so bad but you can get worn down by attrition usually it means a lesser geared group can still tackle content, just slower, as opposed to the tank getting globaled or your group not meeting the dps check or whatever, but it's still gonna be rough and you've gotta play as carefully and efficiently as possible
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Jul 6, 2022 18:53
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Man that was me in SolA last night holding down the bar with a group of 3. Can we take this next spawn? It’ll probably be fine unless we get a wizard spawn in the next 2min..I don’t have mana to heal through his chain nukes but what are the odds? The wizard spawned.
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Jul 6, 2022 22:26
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Sachant posted:No there are definitely MMOs that do this and they're great. I'd just like to see more of them. When you ask for things that are super niche though you have to be content with the downsides like having no one to play with. And I'm not trying to say your dream game is bad, but extremely niche video games don't get good funding. At some point you're cutting costs on things like UI or Lore and the single developer making the game only has enough time in the day. For me, I am completely against instancing/phasing/layering. But if instancing a boss means the PvE crowd wants to actually play the game so I can kill them, then I'm totally down for that.
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Jul 7, 2022 05:32
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hobocrunch posted:When you ask for things that are super niche though you have to be content with the downsides like having no one to play with. And I'm not trying to say your dream game is bad, but extremely niche video games don't get good funding. At some point you're cutting costs on things like UI or Lore and the single developer making the game only has enough time in the day. Yeah I'm cool with that. I don't care about graphics or UI all that much, and lore isn't terribly expensive when it comes to other more expensive things in gamedev. The nice thing is that every year it gets cheaper and easier to make games (as long as you aren't chasing AAA graphics), including MMOs, so we're seeing more niche indie ones. New stuff keeps coming around that gets closer and closer to what I'm looking for. You don't need a huge population, really just enough to populate a server.
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Jul 7, 2022 18:18
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Going back a couple pages I'm actually all for zones because that allows kiting in all its glory and does away with the necessity for leashing. Plus it brings back the concepts of trains and escaping with a sliver of your life if you can only just make it to that zone line. Lots of fun/heart pounding gameplay around zones actually IMO. As for instances, I think the only way they should be allowed in an EQ clone is to deal with the shitshow that is raiding, and it should work like this: Raid zones have both an open world shared version, and instanced versions. Those instances work like WoW instances. So if you choose to zone into the instanced version, you get locked to an instance ID, resets every week, blah blah blah. The instanced versions are a little easier, and maybe even have mechanics like letting you pop back up at zone in with all your equipment and a reduced/no exp hit on death, in order to allow for actually challenging boss encounter designs that take dozens and dozens of attempts. The open world version is harder, drops better versions of loot (Legendary Helmet of Bullshit instead of Helmet of Bullshit), doesn't have those easy mechanics, and is subject to all the competitive poopsocking and nerdrage that P99 raiding consists of for those who want it. The instances are there for those who want to avoid it, and still want to play end game, but they don't get quite the level of uber gear and glory that the open world raiders achieve.
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Jul 9, 2022 10:24
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retpocileh posted:Going back a couple pages I'm actually all for zones because that allows kiting in all its glory and does away with the necessity for leashing. Plus it brings back the concepts of trains and escaping with a sliver of your life if you can only just make it to that zone line. Lots of fun/heart pounding gameplay around zones actually IMO. Eh, you can do all this with zone lines that don't have loading screens- which is what they're doing.
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Jul 9, 2022 10:49
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hobocrunch posted:Eh, you can do all this with zone lines that don't have loading screens- which is what they're doing. Hmm, so what happens at the zoneline, do all the mobs just disappear from your screen? Can you still hit them from across the zone line? Can you like just run back and forth over it causing them to yo-yo? I'm not sure how you make it work smoothly.
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Jul 9, 2022 14:20
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retpocileh posted:The open world version is harder, drops better versions of loot (Legendary Helmet of Bullshit instead of Helmet of Bullshit), doesn't have those easy mechanics, and is subject to all the competitive poopsocking and nerdrage that P99 raiding consists of for those who want it. Or, the open world version drops the "True" version of the loot, with no functional stat changes but Everyone Knows It's Better. That'll be enough.
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Jul 9, 2022 15:49
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