|
Aren't F-16s cheap and come with a very mature parts supply chain? Why aren't we just lend-leasing them a ton of those.
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 15:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
psydude posted:Aren't F-16s cheap and come with a very mature parts supply chain? Why aren't we just lend-leasing them a ton of those. Because they don't know how to fly them, the don't know how to maintain them, they don't have ammunition to fit them, they don't have the proper gear to load them, etc. It takes a huge amount of training in lots of areas for a long time to have a functional system. It can be done, but it's not easy and not practical at this time. They should make use of their Soviet hardware for as long as possible, and start transitioning only when it it no longer tenable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 15:52
|
|
|
For the cost of getting like... 4 F-16s up and running, you could probably instead supply entire brigades with small arms ammo, medical supplies, long range artillery, and counter-fire radars and then have a surplus.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
kill me now posted:I would say Ukraine has passed the point of this war being an immediate existential battle for national survival. Unless they just plan on running their pre war pilot cadre into the ground until they are all dead you will eventually have to pull them off the "front lines" to train new pilots and/or retrain on new aircraft. They also can't exactly replace their SU-25 losses either. They know how to fix them. They have parts and have some ability to fabricate new ones. They don't have that for A-10s. And I'm not talking about pulling people off the front lines. Part of what's helped Ukraine hold on has been their ability to defend their airspace. And the people making that happen are the ones who will be pulled back for a month of intense training. Is it worth the switch from Su-25 to A-10 when you have a break of a few weeks with NONE? Hell no. That juice is absolutely not worth the squeeze.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:01
|
|
|
Godholio posted:They know how to fix them. They have parts and have some ability to fabricate new ones. They don't have that for A-10s. And I'm not talking about pulling people off the front lines. Part of what's helped Ukraine hold on has been their ability to defend their airspace. And the people making that happen are the ones who will be pulled back for a month of intense training. Is it worth the switch from Su-25 to A-10 when you have a break of a few weeks with NONE? Hell no. That juice is absolutely not worth the squeeze. Why would they not just retrain a small part of the pilot force, instead of shutting down the entire air force? That seems to be a very black and white, all in approach.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:05
|
|
|
The pentagon says the war is going to last literally years, so couldn't they train new pilots and maintainers instead of pulling people off the line? They will need the F-16s in 18 months just like they need them now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:The pentagon says the war is going to last literally years, so couldn't they train new pilots and maintainers instead of pulling people off the line? They will need the F-16s in 18 months just like they need them now. It would not surprise me if it goes that way in 6 or 12 or 18 months. But right now the UAF is in a fight for its existence, and that fight is being won or lost on the ground, as long as neither side has air superiority over the front line.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:09
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:It would not surprise me if it goes that way in 6 or 12 or 18 months. But right now the UAF is in a fight for its existence, and that fight is being won or lost on the ground, as long as neither side has air superiority over the front line. And honestly, if the Pentagon had already started a program for training up the Ukrainian Air Force on F-16s in anticipation of supplying them next year, they certainly wouldn't be telling us about it now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
Jimmy Smuts posted:gently caress. That stuff is straight up smack in food form. We truly are living in the end of times. Looking into it further, it seems they're ditching it because there's a *global horseradish shortage* and it's too expensive to offer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:18
|
|
|
If we didn't have 4 years of donald they'd probably have dozens of F16s by now. Imagine the progress that could have been made training and arming Ukraine if a goddamn push broom ran this country for 4 years instead of tangerine floridian dream.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:18
|
|
|
RFC2324 posted:Why would they not just retrain a small part of the pilot force, instead of shutting down the entire air force? That seems to be a very black and white, all in approach. They have the equivalent of 1-2 USAF squadrons of Su-25s, and about half a squadron of Su-24s. There's not a particularly large pool of personnel (not just pilots). Is it possible? Sure, with some pretty obvious drawbacks. But are they worth the benefits? Not really. Adding to what they have is a different story, but that's not a short term thing, which is what I'm trying to address. "Just give them A-10s" has so many more major hurdles that this whole line of thought is pretty much ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:29
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:For the cost of getting like... 4 F-16s up and running, you could probably instead supply entire brigades with small arms ammo, medical supplies, long range artillery, and counter-fire radars and then have a surplus. Those two categories of things you listed do not replace or substitute for each other.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:30
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Those two categories of things you listed do not replace or substitute for each other. If your argument is "the aid being given should be about 4x whatt it is now, and it should include airplanes, and it should happen now" then ok, that's a different line of thinking. I'm thinking more wins above replacement. All the ground stuff is imminently more useful than replacing it with some fighter jets, which would take months to spin up effectively.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:34
|
|
|
No plans for training Ukrainian pilots is very disappointing. Even if it won't have any effect in the current war, Ukraine would need to replace their destroyed and outdated soviet planes and American ones would be the best (only?) possible choice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 16:54
|
|
|
Godholio posted:They have the equivalent of 1-2 USAF squadrons of Su-25s, and about half a squadron of Su-24s. There's not a particularly large pool of personnel (not just pilots). Is it possible? Sure, with some pretty obvious drawbacks. But are they worth the benefits? Not really. Adding to what they have is a different story, but that's not a short term thing, which is what I'm trying to address. "Just give them A-10s" has so many more major hurdles that this whole line of thought is pretty much ridiculous. Yeah, "just give them X" in all its forms is dumb, there are definitely a ton of hurdles. While I didn't realize their AF was that small, I still think pulling 1-2 pilots at a time to phase in the training would be a good move, tho you are right that just adding new trained pilots is the better approach.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 17:05
|
|
|
What makes the most sense is to apply pressure on NATO allies with old Warsaw Pact aircraft to divest those to the Ukrainians, while backfilling those with F-16s, F-15s, A-10s, or whatever the hell they ask for at a discounted rate. It helps with NATO interoperability while also giving the Ukrainians airframes they are familiar with. Yes if this goes on for years and US/NATO go all in on training and equipping the Ukrainian military, it makes sense to have brand new pilots and maintainers go to F-16 training. Ideally this ends sooner than later and Ukraine can join NATO and get all the goodies with no strings attached... also that whole people stop dying because someone wanted to try their hand at reviving the Soviet Union's borders. I'm just glad Putin did it with Ukraine and not a NATO ally like Lithuania because I bet if that happened a mushroom maker would have cracked off by this point in the conflict.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 17:45
|
|
|
It seems like crunch programs for Ukrainian pilot training would be an effective dry run for WW3’s massive US civilian callup/trainup.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 18:39
|
|
|
GD_American posted:It seems like crunch programs for Ukrainian pilot training would be an effective dry run for WW3’s massive US civilian callup/trainup. We can't build the aircraft fast enough to need that in a WWIII scenario.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
WW3 would be over in a half hour or less anyway, well, except for the radiation deaths over the following 2 weeks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 19:49
|
|
|
orange juche posted:WW3 would be over in a half hour or less anyway, well, except for the radiation deaths over the following 2 weeks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zL5whtUbg
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 20:06
|
|
|
orange juche posted:WW3 would be over in a half hour or less anyway, well, except for the radiation deaths over the following 2 weeks. Yeah, WW3 ill be like two virgins going at it. A long time of making out one trying to gauge the other. When the loving comes it'll be quick and unsatisfying and regretful. Or so I've been told.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 20:08
|
|
|
Threads is depressing. This is the WW3 movie (miniseries) you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-OvptbGhSo
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 20:12
|
|
|
The Imp of Nipples posted:Threads is depressing. Bro come on what about By Dawns Early Light. The cast is amazing and it’s well made for an early HBO original movie, like Citizen X. https://youtu.be/AFLtRIwMqxY Interesting fact is Kathy Segals father was the director and died of a helicopter crash while filming. I also have some .gov stuff and newscast style WW3 stuff, along with a German one, if anyone is interested.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 20:41
|
|
|
Marshal Prolapse posted:Bro come on what about By Dawns Early Light. The cast is amazing and it’s well made for an early HBO original movie, like Citizen X. Powers Boothe was awesome in that movie. Oh, and off topic, but Citizen X was fantastic as well. If you have not seen it, watch it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
Cimber posted:Powers Boothe was awesome in that movie. Oh, and off topic, but Citizen X was fantastic as well. If you have not seen it, watch it. Fun fact both movies share one actor, Jeffrey DeMunn.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 21:09
|
|
|
Marshal Prolapse posted:Bro come on what about By Dawns Early Light. The cast is amazing and it’s well made for an early HBO original movie, like Citizen X. The newscast style sounds interesting
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 21:18
|
|
|
orange juche posted:WW3 would be over in a half hour or less anyway, well, except for the radiation deaths over the following 2 weeks. I was raised to believe MAD as doctrinally correct more than any piece of religious dogma. But I’ve grown since to believe that you’ll see a far more incrementalist, absurd, pants on head crazy mix of restraint and backdoor agreements and also impulsive nukings and pointless escalations and de-escalations. WW3 will never make as much horrifying sense as “all the nukes fly”. It’ll be something far dumber and prolonged.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 21:25
|
|
|
Cimber posted:Powers Boothe was awesome in that movie. Oh, and off topic, but Citizen X was fantastic as well. If you have not seen it, watch it. It does kinda start going off the rails after the first thirty minutes, but in that first thirty minutes it's one of the most realistic WW3 movies ever made. Even Major Kong wrote that "someone really did their homework, and perhaps a little too well" with regards to the B-52 scenes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 21:33
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:Even Major Kong wrote that "someone really did their homework, and perhaps a little too well" with regards to the B-52 scenes. Who?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 22:23
|
|
|
Cimber posted:Who? https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/17/1634760/-Best-Cold-War-Movies He flew B-52s, and now he flies boxes around the world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 23:08
|
|
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/2/17/1634760/-Best-Cold-War-Movies Oh, he didn't say that on that page.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
Comrade Blyatlov posted:The newscast style sounds interesting Got ya fam https://youtu.be/q1m7opOGSmQ https://youtu.be/D7CT6fcZI64 https://youtu.be/KMcMzLQoraA
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 23:30
|
|
|
Cimber posted:Oh, he didn't say that on that page. He's mentioned it twice in two different blog posts, that's just the one I could find the easiest. Also, I was paraphrasing from what I remember reading. He commented something to the effect that the procedures for authentication of an EAM were close enough that they were probably a little too good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:11
|
|
|
if newscasts from the end of the world are your thing, there's a set of fake BBC reports on escalating conflict between Russia and NATO somewhere out there on the internet. It was being passed off as set dressing for some military exercises when I saw it, but all I can find on youtube now is this debunking video that just calls it a hoax https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMfreUmFeyI
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:21
|
|
|
pygmy tyrant posted:if newscasts from the end of the world are your thing, there's a set of fake BBC reports on escalating conflict between Russia and NATO somewhere out there on the internet. It was being passed off as set dressing for some military exercises when I saw it, but all I can find on youtube now is this debunking video that just calls it a hoax https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMfreUmFeyI Whoever did it updated from Obama to Trump in 2017 though I don't think they ever did one with Biden.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:24
|
|
|
The Imp of Nipples posted:Threads is depressing. Threads is nothing compared to Testament. It's depressing as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:31
|
|
|
I've been told (I just viewed it like an old intro for a Tom Clancy or Janes Campaign intro), it was made by Russian assets as it states lord of Moscows talking point. I just viewed it as restating Russia’s dumb rear end viewpoints and bullshit claims. Still cool as hell. Here is two of lthem 37 minutes https://youtu.be/4cAZZR_Jki0 57 minutes https://youtu.be/VWqWAi_H_9o Never saw this one though https://youtu.be/QKAjHQ9oAu8
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:32
|
|
|
Midjack posted:Whoever did it updated from Obama to Trump in 2017 though I don't think they ever did one with Biden. Oh neat/too bad. Prefacing the apocalypse with the weird noncommittal soundbytes this admin is so good at would have been an amazing entry in the incomprehensible and hostile universe brand of horror. Marshal Prolapse posted:I've been told (I just viewed it like an old intro for a Tom Clancy or Janes Campaign intro), it was made by Russian assets as it states lord of Moscows talking point. I just viewed it as restating Russia’s dumb rear end viewpoints and bullshit claims. Still cool as hell. Oh awesome thank you pygmy tyrant fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 00:51
|
|
|
pygmy tyrant posted:if newscasts from the end of the world are your thing, there's a set of fake BBC reports on escalating conflict between Russia and NATO somewhere out there on the internet. It was being passed off as set dressing for some military exercises when I saw it, but all I can find on youtube now is this debunking video that just calls it a hoax https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMfreUmFeyI This is the one that haunted me in February. The video was disclaimed as realistic fiction, but it was hard to search for. Wasabi the J fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jul 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 21:51 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/PostBudClarity/status/1504280166641635329?t=Gy1XSrcfG6JhdWeSIOBrDQ&s=19 I can't quite put my finger on what this reminds me of. Hannibal Rex fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jul 10, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 03:17
|
|