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quote:Special Features: 50 lb fixture support Or am I a dumbass and merely being rated for 50 pounds doesn't qualify it as fan rated?
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Jul 9, 2022 04:32
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FISHMANPET posted:Or am I a dumbass and merely being rated for 50 pounds doesn't qualify it as fan rated? I'll let you guess.
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Jul 9, 2022 04:35
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Some researching has confirmed that I'm a dumbass. Listen to Rufio on this one, none of those are fan rated.
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Jul 9, 2022 04:53
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Rufio posted:I love it when people learn a thing or two from the thread then they are suddenly answering questions with authority. It's not just this thread, but this is one of the worst to first-day-expert in considering the potential damage bad advice can cause.
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Jul 9, 2022 20:25
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Motronic posted:It's not just this thread, but this is one of the worst to first-day-expert in considering the potential damage bad advice can cause. What's the worst that can happen? Ceiling fan pulls itself through the drywall slowly, arcing and setting the house on fire? The thread title doesn't warn against that anymore. I had to install some boxes for fans in a basement. My questions were, in this order: Are these boxes rated for fans? Are these anchors listed for ceiling use? When the answer was "you ask too many questions, do it anyway" I said I'd do it if they signed the prints saying it was correct. They found someone else to do it. Then called me a month later when one fan had fallen out of the ceiling because the anchors (not listed for ceilings) pulled out, and they discovered that 6 of the 7 remaining fans had torn at least one screw out of the box.
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Jul 9, 2022 20:42
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I just updated the thread title. Also, I'm considering probing for bad/dangerous advice in this thread again. Would that be appreciated?
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Jul 9, 2022 22:40
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corgski posted:Also, I'm considering probing for bad/dangerous advice in this thread again. Would that be appreciated? Speaking as the resident former code official and fire investigator: yes.
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Jul 9, 2022 22:48
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Motronic posted:Speaking as the resident former code official and fire investigator: yes. Cool. That's all the confirmation I needed. From this point forward, if you or anyone else who has professional experience with this field sees something dangerous being suggested hit report and it'll be at minimum a six, possibly more if it's something really egregious or a repeated issue. Asking stupid questions is fine, giving stupid answers is not. corgski fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 9, 2022 |
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Jul 9, 2022 22:59
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Outlet replacement question. Does an outlet need to be grounded to the metal gang box AND to the green grounding screw on a new replacement outlet? Asking because an old outlet that I’m replacing is grounded to the gang box but the previous installer left absolutely no extra grounding wire left to be connected to the replacement outlet that I’m putting in. Wondering if it’s worth opening up a hole in the wall, putting in a new junction box plus longer 14-2 romex. I believe local code requires 6” of extra wire for this exact purpose. My plug-in receptacle tester says my new outlet is “grounded” but I don’t mind putting in a junction box plus longer romex if it means my new outlet will be safer. This old house has enough horrors as it isMethylethylaldehyde posted:Also, spend the $5/outlet instead of $1.86 and get the commercial specification grade outlets. melon cat fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jul 9, 2022 |
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Jul 9, 2022 23:07
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Re: probes - I think that's a good idea. It will help alleviate the problem of  I don't always have time to post in this thread but I do enjoy reading it. I'd hate to see it go the same way as the Home Wiring thread.
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Jul 9, 2022 23:15
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melon cat posted:Outlet replacement question. Does an outlet need to be grounded to the metal gang box AND to the green grounding screw on a new replacement outlet? Asking because an old outlet that I’m replacing is grounded to the gang box but the previous installer left absolutely no extra grounding wire left to be connected to the replacement outlet that I’m putting in. Wondering if it’s worth opening up a hole in the wall, putting in a new junction box plus longer 14-2 romex. I believe local code requires 6” of extra wire for this exact purpose. My plug-in receptacle tester says my new outlet is “grounded” but I don’t mind putting in a junction box plus longer romex if it means my new outlet will be safer. This old house has enough horrors as it is A new receptacle should be self grounding on the box, so you have a perfectly safe situation. If you want to, you can attach a new ground to the box and run it to the receptacle. Your situation isn't ideal. But is it worth opening up the wall and doing the work to extend the line? Nah.
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Jul 9, 2022 23:22
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Rufio posted:A new receptacle should be self grounding on the box, so you have a perfectly safe situation. If you want to, you can attach a new ground to the box and run it to the receptacle. But on a related note: one of my other receptacles has rust in the junction box, indicative of moisture:  Old cast iron plumbing stack is immediately to the left of it. Probably got exposed to condensation. I don't like the way any of this looks. Should I relocate the gangbox + outlet, or what's the best approach here? Maybe abandon-in-place and replace with a surface mounted outlet? melon cat fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 9, 2022 |
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Jul 9, 2022 23:31
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Motronic posted:Speaking as the resident former code official and fire investigator: yes. Huh…how’d you get into that? And what do you do now? I used to inspect domestic/foreign ships and barges with the coast guard, but that’s a little different.
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Jul 10, 2022 02:14
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Rufio posted:A new receptacle should be self grounding on the box, so you have a perfectly safe situation. If you want to, you can attach a new ground to the box and run it to the receptacle. Per 250.146 (b), I think you would need to use an outlet that's specifically rated as having a self grounding clip around the screws that attach the outlet to the box, to ensure a proper bond between the outlet and the screw, so that there's sure to be a connected path from the outlet body to the box.
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Jul 10, 2022 03:56
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nwin posted:Huh…how’d you get into that? And what do you do now? I used to inspect domestic/foreign ships and barges with the coast guard, but that’s a little different. I grew up in the volunteer fire department. Which turned into paid paramedic. Which turned into paid fire gigs at various places at various times. Which led to being an officer, which led to ending up fire marshal (which makes you the code official and chief investigator) and emergency management coordinator for a municipality. Only very few times in my life was this my only/primary job, but I've been on call and taking shifts basically since I turned 18. I'm a telecom network engineer by trade. I had to leave the code enforcement and on call behind when a startup I was working for really took off and I spent half my time away from home.
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Jul 10, 2022 15:04
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FISHMANPET posted:Per 250.146 (b), I think you would need to use an outlet that's specifically rated as having a self grounding clip around the screws that attach the outlet to the box, to ensure a proper bond between the outlet and the screw, so that there's sure to be a connected path from the outlet body to the box. Hey bud sorry you got your feelings hurt giving dangerous advice. It seems like you're trying to provoke me by being pedantic. If you wanna talk, send me a PM. Rufio fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 10, 2022 |
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Jul 10, 2022 15:44
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Re: Ceiling fan box chat I installed two ceiling fans into bedrooms that didn't have any ceiling lighting/electric a few years back. I used these old work braces. Doing some unofficial testing, I put a good amount of my weight (180lb) hanging. Didn't fail. Two years later, still have not woken up to a fan crashing down on my face. https://www.lowes.com/pd/RACO-1-Gang-Silver-Steel-New-Work-Old-Work-Standard-Ceiling-Fan-Ceiling-Electrical-Box/3127059
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Jul 10, 2022 17:11
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Yup, hence big name retailer selling this product with Fan Box in the name, this would fit the bill
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Jul 10, 2022 17:18
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Yeah, as long as I can get them up there without having to go through the attic, that will be great. I got something similar from Home Depot and will try it out once the kids give me any time to do something longer than 5 minutes. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-15-3-cu-in-Remodel-Construction-Ceiling-Fan-Brace-with-1-1-2-in-Box-CMB150-OB/205383178
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Jul 10, 2022 17:30
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The controversial box previously linked shows support for 50lb fixtures, which is an easy mistake to make if you see your fan weighs 30lbs. "seems like 20lbs of safety margin!" But fans are their own thing, which is why people talk in specifics here. It's very easy to be subtly but dangerously wrong. And then your house burns down while you are knocked out from a fan falling on your head. Fan death is real.
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Jul 10, 2022 17:36
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I'm gonna guess that the extra load margin fans need is because they're live loads to some extent? i.e. it's not just the weight of the fan itself, but also it's moving that weight around, and that puts extra stresses on whatever it's mounted to?
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Jul 10, 2022 18:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm gonna guess that the extra load margin fans need is because they're live loads to some extent? i.e. it's not just the weight of the fan itself, but also it's moving that weight around, and that puts extra stresses on whatever it's mounted to? I'm not a MechE but that would be my hunch -- static load + dynamics when its spinning (continuous vibe). I could see poorly installed fasteners / anchors / etc working themselves loose over time and then suddenly its load-bearing Romex / wire time.
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Jul 10, 2022 19:07
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movax posted:I'm not a MechE but that would be my hunch -- static load + dynamics when its spinning (continuous vibe). I could see poorly installed fasteners / anchors / etc working themselves loose over time and then suddenly its load-bearing Romex / wire time. That happened in an apartment I rented. There was a thud in the middle of the night and we found the dining room ceiling fan hanging 14" lower by just the wires. Turns out properly installed wirenuts will hold up a ceiling fan. They hold up a running ceiling fan.
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Jul 10, 2022 19:19
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insta posted:That happened in an apartment I rented. There was a thud in the middle of the night and we found the dining room ceiling fan hanging 14" lower by just the wires. Turns out properly installed wirenuts will hold up a ceiling fan. Yes this is why wiring went to the neutral wire, it's 50% more holding capacity for your fans (please don't probe me)! The market wanted better, bigger, heavier fans and a third wire was seen as essential 
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Jul 11, 2022 00:39
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VelociBacon posted:Yes this is why wiring went to the neutral wire, it's 50% more holding capacity for your fans (please don't probe me)! It is important that a properly rated extension cord be used to mount a fan to the ceiling.
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Jul 11, 2022 00:41
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An update on the solar system I'm putting together for my parent's cabin that I posted about a month ago, and thanks for all the advice from people in this thread! I've got most of the equipment for it now (still a few small things needed), and this past week finished constructing the stand for the panels and got the space ready for the batteries and electronics to be installed in. The frame has space for 12x 100w panels, though I've only got 8 to start with to see how things go. Its going to be anchored into the ground as well, but for now as theres not as much worry of an empty frame getting picked up by wind I just have some blocks on it.  There are some things I'm wondering about though, if anyone has any advice. One of the things I still need to get is the heavy 2/0 AWG cables for the battery interconnects and to the inverter, however I'm not sure what (if any) difference there is between using a cable connector that clamps onto the battery terminal post, or a cable with a ring terminal to get screwed down to the lug? Is there any difference in connecting it one way or another, IE any sort of max ratings for amps or anything? The circuit breakers I have, have connectors on them to screw down a ring connector, so I just kind of assumed that connector would be fine on the batteries as well but.... I know assuming things can get yourself into trouble, and I haven't been able to successfully google an answer to that question so if anyone knows I'd be appreciative. I'm probably just being overly cautious but, well I'd rather be that than the alternative. Another thing I'm a bit uncertain about, as I've read conflicting things online, but should the ground wires coming off the inverter, charge controller, and even combiner box, be all tied together, or just all be independent to the ground? Does it matter with distance as well, because the inverter and charge controller are next to each other, but the ground from the combiner box is maybe 25-35 feet away from the rest of it? babyeatingpsychopath posted:Note that, like with all electricity, you must have a complete circuit, and current flows in all conductors of that circuit. It's possible to have the - wire be the faulted one, and you'll still get massive current -- except that current must now go through all the devices in order to blow the fuse on the + wire. There's no reason NOT to fuse both lines. Use 2-pole fuseholders on everything, and 2 fuses. DC fuses can be very small even at extremely high current ratings, so it's not much space. A single-pole fuseholder is $30 and the fuse is $3. A two-pole fuseholder is $40, and two fuses is $6. Bit of a late reply, but I wanted to say I appreciate the advice. The circuit breakers I had sourced were DC ones specifically and all the specs look correct so I'm not worried about having the wrong kind, and I plan to put one on the + and - as suggested as I'd much rather be safe than sorry. However, I'm curious why it is every bit of advice and diagram I could find online, even from solar system manufacturers only ever says to put the fuse or breaker on the + side and doesn't for the negative? I'm also planning on putting in a disconnect switch between the batteries and inverter, which again in every diagram and suggestion online only has that done for the + side. Is that another case where I would want to put a disconnect switch on the + and - side?
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Jul 11, 2022 00:42
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shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 11, 2022 |
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Jul 11, 2022 01:16
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Looking good. I don't have other advice than rings give a more reliable connection and are way cleaner looking. No worry about knocking a clamp loose.
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Jul 11, 2022 01:16
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Thanks for everyone’s advice on the fan bracket. There was only a 1/2” Brad nail holding up each side of that metal bracket. I had another fun time with the fan though. Got everything installed correctly-light turns on but no fan. I checked the wires and they were hot after I restored power so I’m guessing the plastic piece that connects to the metal pull had broken. Then when I was putting up an identical fan I realized someone had cut the wires shorter on the broken one and then returned it. Second fan works without issue, but man what a pain to find that out after installing those drat blades.
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Jul 11, 2022 16:15
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Tom Guycot posted:
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/PV-Ground.pdf That PDF gives you the NEC guidelines, and a decent picture showing all the parts of the system that need grounding, and where the grounding wires need to go. Assuming you do NOT have any utility service of any kind, the Figure 2 diagram on the pdf is what you should do. At least one ground rod, preferably two, tied together with wire based on the largest ungrounded wire in the system. Rotohammer is the easiest way to drive a ground rod, though a sledgehammer and a helper can also work. https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/graphics/sectionPics/large/qid867.jpg This is the chart for determining the size of the grounding wire that ties the ground rods to eachother and to the service disconnect. Use the largest wire size your system uses (not counting the battery wires) to determine the sizing. All the grounding wires should be that size. Methylethylaldehyde fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jul 11, 2022 |
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Jul 11, 2022 22:17
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Tom Guycot posted:Bit of a late reply, but I wanted to say I appreciate the advice. The circuit breakers I had sourced were DC ones specifically and all the specs look correct so I'm not worried about having the wrong kind, and I plan to put one on the + and - as suggested as I'd much rather be safe than sorry. However, I'm curious why it is every bit of advice and diagram I could find online, even from solar system manufacturers only ever says to put the fuse or breaker on the + side and doesn't for the negative? That is strange to me (putting stuff on both the positive and return sides) — I would only put it on the positive side, personally. I can only think of once in my career where I put a fuse or other element on the low-side / return of a system and it was a really weird case. You optimally want return / ‘GND’ to be an infinitely sized / zero resistance / equipotential plane — if it’s not, current flows anytime there is a potential difference. Adding fuses / other elements with some resistance that can vary will make what I just said harder. On a PCB for example w/ digital logic (so not solar at all), that can cause issues when you have an input who’s VIH is say 0.8 V, referenced to ‘ground’… but if ground is sitting 200 mV higher at one IC vs the other, you just lost margin. Current flows in loops — as long as you can point to something near the start of that loop / the source of energy that is a protective element, you’re good.
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Jul 11, 2022 23:19
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Tom Guycot posted:Bit of a late reply, but I wanted to say I appreciate the advice. The circuit breakers I had sourced were DC ones specifically and all the specs look correct so I'm not worried about having the wrong kind, and I plan to put one on the + and - as suggested as I'd much rather be safe than sorry. However, I'm curious why it is every bit of advice and diagram I could find online, even from solar system manufacturers only ever says to put the fuse or breaker on the + side and doesn't for the negative? I'll fully admit that the state of fusing may have moved since I was last into DC and solar heavily. I also lived in a state where just because something was touching the ground, didn't mean it was well grounded; very very low soil moisture and not many minerals. Myself, I tend to err on the side of caution. I would put fuses on both legs coming from the PV strings and batteries because it's just very very cheap insurance. For the rest of it, if the manufacturers don't say to put protection on the -, then you don't have to.
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Jul 12, 2022 01:30
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Someone explain this wiring to me. I’m installing a ceiling fan in a room with one light switch and it currently has a standard ceiling light installed (white/black/ground wires). When I took the light down, I have two sets of romex coming into the junction box. One is black sheathed with red, black, white, and ground wires. The other is white sheathed with white, black, and ground wires. The black wires are pigtailed together and wire tied off. The red wire is wire tied to the black on the light, the whites are pigtailed to the white on the light, and the ground are pigtailed together to the neutral on the light.  When I took the light switch out, it’s the same setup. Black and white sheathed cables pigtailed together and only the black, white, and ground cable tied to the switch.   What’s the purpose of the black sheathed cable here? Upgrade option for a fan at a later time so you can have two switches? nwin fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jul 12, 2022 |
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Jul 12, 2022 16:58
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If you're lucky, yes. Where is your always-hot black wire? This is the "line" wire? If it's in the switch box with all the other wires unhooked from each other you're golden. ) Nut together all the white wires, then a second nut for all the ground wires, pigtailing the grounds onto the ground terminal on the switch and the ground wire on the fan. I just looked more closely, it looks like your line wire is in the fan box. They are then running that power to the switch using the blacks, and switching the red wire. Sorry, no split switch without running new wire. This is why fans have remotes.
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Jul 12, 2022 17:24
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H110Hawk posted:If you're lucky, yes. Where is your always-hot black wire? This is the "line" wire? If it's in the switch box with all the other wires unhooked from each other you're golden. Thanks. I don’t mind having one switch. I’m Just trying to understand why they would have done this…what option would it provide anyone?
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Jul 12, 2022 17:31
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nwin posted:Thanks. I don’t mind having one switch. I’m They ran a switch loop and also took a neutral wire to the switch. This would allow someone to run a receptacle off of the switch where a switch loop with just 2 conductors would not allow it. It's not the most typical setup but has some utility. Edit: you could also use this setup to separate the fan and light kid using the white wire from the 3 wire cable as another switch leg as long as you don't need the neutral at the switch. But it looks like that option may not be open to you. Edit 2: there is a lot that you'll see in home wiring that you can only understand in the context of wiring the house in the fastest way possible. There are a lot of choices made on efficiency rather than ease of use or remodel later. Not my personal philosophy but that's how it's mostly done. Rufio fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 12, 2022 |
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Jul 12, 2022 20:05
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Purchased a new home in June and with the paint and interior work mostly complete, the next area I was planning to renovate was electrical outlets. The house was built in 1942 but renovated significantly in 2004; electrical seems to be generally in OK shape. I've been reading this thread for a few weeks and would like to get a gut check before I purchase parts and start any work. I plan on a few different tasks: - Change out existing outlets for Leviton USB combo (A/C) outlets in a few key locations - Change out fan switches for Lutron Maestro to control the new fans that were installed - Change out the old rocker and dimmer switches throughout the house - Change out all of the old, nasty yellowing standard outlets throughout the house Here's a snap of my fuse box, which shows the house is mostly 20A breakers with a few 15A here and there:  Per NEC 404.14, I understand it's acceptable to use 15A switches on 20A circuits provide the loads are acceptable. This is good, because 20A rocker switches appear to be more of an industrial/commercial thing and the level of finish leaves something to be desired. My plan is to go with Leviton rockers for the incandescent fixtures, with Lutron dimmables for a few areas where I will have LEDs (fans, new dining room pendant). I will eventually go with LEDs over time, but otherwise is there any reason to go with the higher end switches? I don't have any interest in home automation at present. Extrapolating this to outlets - any recommendation on the best way to proceed, 15a vs 20a outlet? 20A outlets appear to be roughly 2x the price for both regular and USB outlets. I know that for the USB outlets I may have box depth issues, it's something that will need to be verified at each location. I'm traveling this week for work otherwise I'd pull out a few outlets and see what's already in the walls. Any other things that I'm not thinking of that are significant?
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Jul 13, 2022 02:46
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/PV-Ground.pdf movax posted:That is strange to me (putting stuff on both the positive and return sides) — I would only put it on the positive side, personally. I can only think of once in my career where I put a fuse or other element on the low-side / return of a system and it was a really weird case. babyeatingpsychopath posted:I'll fully admit that the state of fusing may have moved since I was last into DC and solar heavily. I also lived in a state where just because something was touching the ground, didn't mean it was well grounded; very very low soil moisture and not many minerals. Myself, I tend to err on the side of caution. I would put fuses on both legs coming from the PV strings and batteries because it's just very very cheap insurance. For the rest of it, if the manufacturers don't say to put protection on the -, then you don't have to. Cheers! Thanks for the links and advice everyone. I'm trying to operate everything on "better safe than sorry" rules, so more caution, even if it costs a couple bucks more is worth it as long as it isn't detrimental. Regarding batteries, I initially was planning on the wires coming from the charge controller to the batteries, and the cables coming from the batteries to the inverter being on the same posts, but recently I was reading someone suggesting instead to have them on opposite ends of the bank (the dashed lines in this picture) to balance the batteries better. Is there truth to that, or does it not matter if they're on the same connection? 
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Jul 13, 2022 04:26
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Rufio posted:They ran a switch loop and also took a neutral wire to the switch. This would allow someone to run a receptacle off of the switch where a switch loop with just 2 conductors would not allow it. It's not the most typical setup but has some utility. Thanks. I don’t understand their reasoning…looking again at the light fixture in my Master bed, it actually has 3 sets of wires coming in…reading up on it, it’s one 14-2 and two 14-3’s. I just don’t get what utility this could ever offer.  Another weird thing (to me) is that the ground wires are literally just twisted together and left up in the box. The ground wire from the ceiling light was never attached to the metal bracket. Is this any concern at all?
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Jul 13, 2022 17:59
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Tom Guycot posted:
That's interesting; never thought of it because of the extra cost on the real big wire. You're using the big wire to make all your parallel strings + and - points electrically equivalent, so it should make literally no difference where on that parallel connection you hook anything up.
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Jul 14, 2022 02:07
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