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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:So what are you counting as luxury then? Bentley, RR and uhh? Pretty much. Not to say that bmw or merc dont make some very expensive luxury cars, but those are halo models and the majority of their offerings are pretty bog standard stuff
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Jul 13, 2022 18:37
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fridge corn posted:Pretty much. Not to say that bmw or merc dont make some very expensive luxury cars, but those are halo models and the majority of their offerings are pretty bog standard stuff seems like a pretty small and irrelevant segment!
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Jul 13, 2022 18:39
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:So what are you counting as luxury then? Bentley, RR and uhh? Bugatti, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche, anything with a 150k€+ base listing price really.
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Jul 13, 2022 18:39
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I can just see used car ads in a few years. "2027 BMW 540iS, 23,000 miles V8 engine, ALL OPTIONS, FULLY SUBSCRIBED TILL THE END OF 2030!! A REAL STEAL AT ONLY $97835 plus tax, licensing, window etching, subscription continuance fee, call now"!
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Jul 13, 2022 18:46
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Guess the markets are just different then, over in NA everything from BMW/Audi/Merc to Lexus/Acura/Infiniti to Cadillac is just called "luxury"
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Jul 13, 2022 19:13
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This is one of our runabouts/chase cars at work An Audi. Look at it. Virtually indistinguishable from the Mazda3 I was sat in when I took this photo. Pathetic!
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Jul 13, 2022 19:40
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carry on then posted:Guess the markets are just different then, over in NA everything from BMW/Audi/Merc to Lexus/Acura/Infiniti to Cadillac is just called "luxury" It's a byproduct of cars in Europe costing an arm and leg where expensive car brands want to get closer to customer attainable pricing but still want to keep an halo of exclusivity. It's the bread and butter of brands like Alfa Romeo which could never justify luxury pricing for its value.
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Jul 13, 2022 19:48
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Ambassadorofsodomy posted:I can just see used car ads in a few years. Thanks I hate it, and you're probably spot on fridge corn posted:This is one of our runabouts/chase cars at work As an Audi fan I agree with you, it is shameful. Obviously it is the lowest of the low but all of their models are looking even more generic than before. The classic design philosophy that led to the successes of the market leading attractive TT, R8, A8 and others have morphed into a boring focus grouped blob for all but the most expensive models. I still think the A4 is competitive against the 3 series, but all things equal I'm probably still gonna go for the 3 series, it's just when I bought used the 3 series held much more of its value so it was thousands more $ for the same specs. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jul 13, 2022 |
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Jul 13, 2022 19:59
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Inner Light posted:Thanks I hate it, and you're probably spot on I mistook the current gen 1 series for a Ford Focus the other day lol
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Jul 13, 2022 20:05
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we don't get any of the really little dire German poo poo for the most part although that's changing a bit, probably helps overall brand perception
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Jul 13, 2022 21:22
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Yeah in EU your basic 3-series or C-class are definately not luxury. Premium yes, meaning that they are a step above say VW or Peugeot or other mainstream brands. S-class or 7-series are in the luxury bracket. Yeah taxation here can give weird incentives. If you can buy stuff "aftermarket" it can be a lot cheaper just by avoiding the car sales tax. Not that I want to be excusing the subscription bullshit, but in some cases it might actually be cheaper that way.
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Jul 13, 2022 21:23
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Zero One posted:I've used mine and my heated steering wheel. Had a couple days last winter it was down to freezing in Orlando. Cooled seats are a revelation. We live in Minnesota, and I would still take cooled seats over heated steering wheel in a heartbeat.
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Jul 13, 2022 21:50
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bad_fmr posted:Yeah in EU your basic 3-series or C-class are definately not luxury. Premium yes, meaning that they are a step above say VW or Peugeot or other mainstream brands. S-class or 7-series are in the luxury bracket. In the US, we tend not to get the barebones models that you guys get in the EU/abroad. A 3-series/C-class will generally come with leather (*MBTex) standard for example, and cloth isn't an option in the 3 series/C-class. That's changed a bit over the years as BMW/Mercedes have brought over cars that try to compete on the lower end, but in general it still holds true. I would say most people in the US consider BMW/Mercedes luxury cars.
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Jul 13, 2022 21:54
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Yes agreed with what RE said, and keep in mind mainstream makes in the US have come up bigly in the last 10 years, and even in the last 5 regarding thoughtful exterior design, interior material quality and layout. This further reduces the spread in quality and fit/finish between entry-level luxo BMW/Audi/Merc and the other brands. If you look real closely you can spot the cost cutting, but 99%+ of buyers are not going to care.
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Jul 13, 2022 23:14
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In Taiwan over the past 5 years, Skodas have become pretty popular because they are the cheapest European brand around. Anything European is considered "classier" than the locally made brands. There is a huge price difference here between the stuff that is made with a license domestically (Corolla Cross, Kicks, Focus, HR-V) and imported. Skodas are cheaper than any other European model, and just close enough in price at their base to be worth it. I still think BMWs outsell them because if you really have the money, you get them. You get a Skoda if you want to feel like you have the money. For example, subcompact sales, domestically made on top, imported on bottom:  And SUVs:  The Corolla Cross sold twice as much as any other car last year, and will again this year. If your country doesn't sell it yet, don't worry. It is coming. It looks like every generic SUV you see in a videogame. Tesla (which is 95% of all electric cars sold here), BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Land Rover, Audi, Porsche, Mini(?), Volvo(??) and Ssangyong(???) are included in other charts.
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Jul 13, 2022 23:48
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Kivi posted:I don't mind if it means I can buy those features afterwards permanently. Around here cars are taxed 200% so every optional extra on the time of delivery also costs 200% more. If it's bought after market it should have less tax (just the 20% or so VAT) => more features for cheaper and I can pick and choose what I want instead of it either being baked in a special edition or whatever. What about a business model where you buy a bare chassis “car” for 10 grand and then wheel it to the aftermarket joint next door and get a motor installed for 10k, interior for 5k, etc.
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Jul 14, 2022 00:07
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bird with big dick posted:What about a business model where you buy a bare chassis “car” for 10 grand and then wheel it to the aftermarket joint next door and get a motor installed for 10k, interior for 5k, etc. I'd be ok if coachbuilding made a serious comeback.
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Jul 14, 2022 00:39
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Full Collapse posted:I'd be ok if coachbuilding made a serious comeback. Don't let your dreams be dreams: https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-series-stripped-chassis/ It even comes with the brand new excellent 7.3L V8.
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Jul 14, 2022 02:10
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You tempt me so much.
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Jul 14, 2022 04:02
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SlowBloke posted:It was a classic dealer trick here to import special poverty spec e classes made for fleet/taxi purpose and sell them at standard spec prices to nouveau rich that never went into a merc so they didn't notice the cheap materials. American manufacturers reclaimed this market with tarted up trucks and SUVs. Hello, Escalade
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Jul 14, 2022 07:01
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GoutPatrol posted:In Taiwan over the past 5 years, Skodas have become pretty popular because they are the cheapest European brand around. Anything European is considered "classier" than the locally made brands.  I've been to Taiwan a few years ago, don't remember seeing anything Skoda. I feel like all of these cars are outsold by the loving scooters like 100:1 anyway
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Jul 14, 2022 11:00
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I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this RN, but I'm feeling there are reasons why all the tarted up "premium brands" (Lexus, Genesis, Acura, Infiniti etc) were first introduced *and* successful in the US. Most of them haven't even been sold in the EU.
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Jul 14, 2022 11:02
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Nidhg00670000 posted:I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this RN, but I'm feeling there are reasons why all the tarted up "premium brands" (Lexus, Genesis, Acura, Infiniti etc) were first introduced *and* successful in the US. Most of them haven't even been sold in the EU. Infiniti was introduced in eu with the g35 and it tanked stupendously, with 911 prices for that lead bathtub. Lexus are very rare since the looks are too weird for the market. I don't think Acura or Genesis are sold here.
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Jul 14, 2022 11:21
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mobby_6kl posted:Skoda as a fancy premium brand Yeah having a car instead of just a scooter is already a signifier of something. and now I guess to post the Skoda dance: https://youtu.be/PFZzmNojdoE
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Jul 14, 2022 11:33
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It’s beautiful
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Jul 14, 2022 11:42
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Nidhg00670000 posted:I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this RN, but I'm feeling there are reasons why all the tarted up "premium brands" (Lexus, Genesis, Acura, Infiniti etc) were first introduced *and* successful in the US. Most of them haven't even been sold in the EU. Because Americans have no class and will believe anyone telling them what's classy? Real answer is that Japanese manufacturers did not have a very strong presence in the euro market in the 90s anyway so there was no way they'd be able to support launching all these brands. Even a civic was a sort of rare and awkward thing to have in the uk in the 90s
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Jul 14, 2022 11:57
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Lexus started as a shameles copy of Mercedes. Very tryhard, and I think it has coloured the perception of all asian premium cars to this day. Why would you buy a blinged out Toyota, that tries to copy the Merc when you can just buy the real thing? Also, the very popular myth in the US is that Japanese cars are very reliable and Euro cars are the opposite. True or not, the perception is not the same in Europe.
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Jul 14, 2022 12:13
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fridge corn posted:Because Americans have no class and will believe anyone telling them what's classy? There’s all kinds of answers, from a e.g. German perspective: Audi, Benz and BMW are common in Germany. One reason is that company cars are a thing, and b2b leasing rates are reasonable for German manufacturers, because they protect their turf. When I ran fleet for a $1B company, all sales reps had Passats, and all middle management upwards had a company car. The way I designed the policy to optimize cost/talent retention, the lowest management tier could get a reasonably-optioned A4/A5 Sportsback without co-pay, and middle tier could get a 520 wagon without co-pay. For <€100/month co-pay, you could option out a ‘nicer’ Benz or BMW. Japanese manufacturers weren’t even on the approved list, because their leasing wasn’t competitive, the service network was garbage, and people wanted German cars anyway. We looked at offering e.g. Skoda in lieu of Passats, but VW told us bluntly that they’d rather improve their leasing offer on the Passat further, because VAG policy was to protect VW market share in Germany. All of this means that a lot of people have access to VW+ tier German manufacturers for ~€200/month in taxes, as company cars are also taxed favorably to support this system. And of course, this also means that there’s a sizable second-hand market. The environment also means that there was no obvious gap for say Lexus to target in the 90s, or even since.
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Jul 14, 2022 12:21
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fridge corn posted:Because Americans have no class and will believe anyone telling them what's classy? In today's free trade world most of us aren't old enough to remember that this weak presence was because of Voluntary Export Restraint agreements in order to protect domestic manufacturing. Japanese manufacturers could only sell a prescribed amount of cars in to certain markets, including the EC, UK and US through various agreements throughout the 80's and 90's. 1993 story: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-1452846.html quote:JAPANESE car imports into Britain are to be allowed to rise by 20 per cent this year to more than 200,000 in a move that could help force down prices of all manufacturers. quote:A Monopolies and Mergers Commission report into the UK car market last year identified the Voluntary Restraint Agreement governing Japanese imports as the main reason for UK cars being overpriced. 1981 US VER (Wiki) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_export_restraint#1981_Automobile_VER quote:When the automobile industry in the United States was threatened by the popularity of cheaper, more fuel efficient Japanese cars, a 1981 voluntary restraint agreement limited the Japanese to exporting 1.68 million cars to the U.S. annually as stipulated by U.S Government.[10] This quota was originally intended to expire after three years, in April 1984. However, with a growing deficit in trade with Japan, and under pressure from domestic manufacturers, the US government extended the quotas for an additional year.[11] The cap was raised to 1.85 million cars for this additional year, then to 2.3 million for 1985. The voluntary restraint was removed in 1994. quote:The Japanese Big Three (Honda, Toyota, and Nissan) also began exporting bigger, more expensive cars (soon under their newly formed luxury brands like Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti - the luxury marques distanced themselves from its parent brand which was mass marketed) in order to make more money from a limited number of cars. So, good for UK and US manufacturers, bad for consumers. While Lexus has been successful, arguably off the back of the absolutely massive investment (only matched by what they spent developing the Prius) they made in building the original LS400 and the focus on reliability, Acura is a maybe (given they never bothered with it anywhere else) and Infiniti not so much. As a Nissan tragic I often wonder if the distraction and financial drain of Infiniti is part of Nissan's problem. Infiniti can't really compete with Lexus, but they make drat nice Nissan's back in the motherland. I drive a Nissan Fuga 450GT, the JDM version of the 2nd gen M45. Yeah it's not quite as well built as a GS450, but it's got more features and tech and a better chassis setup, and it's certainly not a piece of poo poo like the CVT equipped decontented slop Nissan mostly sells in the US. Now to the Germans, put them in the same position. If you're only going to sell a certain number of vehicles in an export market (be it via trade restrictions or market forces), why bother selling poverty spec 318i's with cloth and wind up windows, when each one of those you sell is a fully loaded 750 you can't sell? Throw in some good marketing and you're away laughing. It's all about market positioning in whatever market you're in. poo poo, there's a reason VW made the acquisitions they did to get where they are now. If you want "Euro quality" on a budget, buy a Skoda. Mid level VW, premium Audi, luxury Bentley, sport Porsche. Edit: the poster above also makes an excellent point about the influence of the Euro company fleet market and the lengths manufacturers will go to. Hell on a much smaller scale, our govt uses diesel 7 series as govt limos. The pricing they gave the govt for only a tiny handful of cars would make public 7 series buyers cry into their unheated seats. BuckyDoneGun fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 12:32
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Proud Christian Mom posted:American manufacturers reclaimed this market with tarted up trucks and SUVs. Hello, Escalade Can’t wait for the glut of LT4s from wrecked Escalade-Vs. So many engines awaiting release from their ridiculous fauxmobiles.
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Jul 14, 2022 13:34
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bad_fmr posted:Lexus started as a shameles copy of Mercedes. Very tryhard, and I think it has coloured the perception of all asian premium cars to this day. Why would you buy a blinged out Toyota, that tries to copy the Merc when you can just buy the real thing? the original LS was an engineering marvel and Euros just have a higher tolerance for fastidious maintenance and also poo poo to loving break all the time
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Jul 14, 2022 13:47
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bad_fmr posted:Lexus started as a shameles copy of Mercedes. Very tryhard, and I think it has coloured the perception of all asian premium cars to this day. Why would you buy a blinged out Toyota, that tries to copy the Merc when you can just buy the real thing? Styling perhaps, but any US domestic or European manufacturer straight up couldn't build the LS and everyone knew it. That's why it endures so hard. Mercedes especially fell asleep at the wheel, lobbied to put in place the 25 year import rule in the USA and then got their poo poo kicked in by Toyota investing in making a great car vs. lobbying. They were so afraid that they'd lose profit from people importing lower spec Mercs from Germany/Europe only to get slapped by a whole different import anyway. 
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Jul 14, 2022 16:20
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What is the average number of miles traveled per year by a privately-owned passenger vehicle in its first five years in the US? Europe? Japan? I would imagine that the number is the highest in the US given the way cities are "planned," the dearth of mass transit in most places, the enormous size of the country, and the lower fuel prices. Do Europeans not care as much about the relative fragility of locally-manufactured cars because they just don't pile the miles on? bad_fmr posted:Lexus started as a shameles copy of Mercedes. Very tryhard, and I think it has coloured the perception of all asian premium cars to this day. Why would you buy a blinged out Toyota, that tries to copy the Merc when you can just buy the real thing? Japanese cars are more reliable than European models in the US and the service and parts networks of Japanese makers in the US are miles ahead of the Euro marques.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:23
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Per an old NHTS, 14k in Year 1 down to 12k in Year 6 for US vehicles, with a non-linear dropoff, so you figure roughly 65k miles over the first six years of ownership on average. Trucks and vans get driven more than cars.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:29
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SlowBloke posted:Infiniti was introduced in eu with the g35 and it tanked stupendously, with 911 prices for that lead bathtub. lmao was it really that bad that's insane. I even kinda like the G cars but they should be like 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a base 911.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:37
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bird with big dick posted:lmao was it really that bad that's insane. I even kinda like the G cars but they should be like 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a base 911. yeah i feel like the original G35 was pretty good value at like, 85% of the price of a 3-series
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Jul 14, 2022 17:33
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PBCrunch posted:Do Europeans not care as much about the relative fragility of locally-manufactured cars because they just don't pile the miles on? Until the late nougts, buying local in Europe was the only way to get timely spares. Buying Japanese or god forbid Korean would mean spares would be there in months or being reamed by the dealer for expedite shipping.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:42
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Yeah the poor choice of Japanese cars in Europe is a bummer. You can certainly get a Yaris or a Z and I've got the beater Jazz of course but I don't think I've seen a new accord IRL yet.GoutPatrol posted:Yeah having a car instead of just a scooter is already a signifier of something. Lol holy poo poo that's a pro-click. They even say taiwan #1 lmao. mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 18:06
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I've seen some ugly Toyota SUVs in France
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Jul 14, 2022 18:29
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morothar posted:There’s all kinds of answers, from a e.g. German perspective: I think this is a much more common benefit in Europe than it is in the US. It seems like it's fairly common for even lower/middle European management to have a car allowance. Presumably this is partly to offset lower salaries/higher taxes (is this benefit taxed?), and I'm sure there's a decent argument to be made for helping prop up a country's internal manufacturing base (ie, German/UK car manufacturers). Presumably the car allowance encourages workers to switch out cars more often than they would otherwise. I'm also guessing a lot of the reason Lexus/Infiniti sell so poorly/don't sell in Europe is good, old-fashioned, racism. Residency Evil fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 19:14
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