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BrianWilly posted:If American schools aren't allowed to teach people about the Holocaust anymore then it's up to the MCU to do it. This post said it far better than I could have. Changing Magneto's origin right now is a very poor idea
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Jul 14, 2022 12:28
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In these trying times we must make sure Iron Fist stays a white guy. I want it to happen just for the nuclear reaction (they won’t do it).
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Jul 14, 2022 13:13
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tsob posted:By that same token, race relations have always been contentious in America, but maybe talking about them is extra important in a time when lots of people feel like racism basically no longer exists, when people are trying to ban teaching the history and context of it in schools, where killing mutan...Black people has caused months long periods of rioting world wide etc. It also has to be said, there's the additional discomfiting factor that Magneto is still at least somewhat of a villainous character with some extreme methods, no matter how justified his cause, and so making him a black man on top of that miiight maaaybe hmmm perhaps not look the best. Ultimately, at the end of the day, we really should be looking to the Jewish readership themselves first and foremost on this matter, and after that towards the black audience, and I'ma be honest that if these demographics have been clamoring for Mags to be anything other than what he has been, I haven't been aware of it. The least of the problems of trying to "fix" Magneto's identity is that it's hardly an issue in the first place.
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Jul 14, 2022 13:37
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If they really had balls they'd make a modern day Magneto a Palestinian.
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Jul 14, 2022 13:41
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BrianWilly posted:It also has to be said, there's the additional discomfiting factor that Magneto is still at least somewhat of a villainous character with some extreme methods, no matter how justified his cause, and so making him a black man on top of that miiight maaaybe hmmm perhaps not look the best. So it's fine if he's Jewish and a villain, but a problem if he's Black and a villain?  BrianWilly posted:The least of the problems of trying to "fix" Magneto's identity is that it's hardly an issue in the first place. I disagree, because a pretty central part of Magneto is his relationship to Charles. You can have Magneto be a 100 year old mutant who was a child during the holocaust, but if you do then you need to make Xavier a ~100 year old mutant too, so they can have been friends for years and tried to help the hidden mutant population for a decade plus while working together before their differences began to diverge. And you can't use "oh he just uses magnetism to keep himself young" for Xavier. You can come up with an independent explanation for him, but then it starts to feel rather trite in my opinion if you're introducing 2 old men who lead divergent mutant philosophies who have been hiding for decades while keeping themselves young via some unusual means. So I feel like Magneto's "identity" as a holocaust survivor does need to be addressed, and that, like pretty much every other comic character ever, like his origin needs to be updated to reflect the times. Which doesn't even have to be to move away from making him a Jew, even though I disagree that it's of vital central import to the character personally, since it's not like Jewish persecution died away post World War II or anything. Just make him from the Middle East rather than Germany. I'm sure there have been plenty of inciting incidents in the last 50 odd years he can have experienced as a child in that area of the world. They're not as viscerally horrific as the holocaust, but that doesn't mean they're not horrific. Or that people don't need to know about them.
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Jul 14, 2022 13:50
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Dell_Zincht posted:Is Wandavision actually any good? I've had Disney+ since it came out in the UK and Ms. Marvel is literally the only Marvel show I've watched on it. Not really that good personally. Your mileage may vary. BrianWilly posted:If American schools aren't allowed to teach people about the Holocaust anymore then it's up to the MCU to do it. loving lmao at this post
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Jul 14, 2022 14:18
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Soonmot posted:you know how they sell those anti-aging magnetic bracelets? well magneto can do that  Dell_Zincht posted:Is Wandavision actually any good? I've had Disney+ since it came out in the UK and Ms. Marvel is literally the only Marvel show I've watched on it. It's alright - the concept is interesting but it kinda goes sideways later on for the same old MCU schlock. Loki and Hawkeye are worth a watch for sure though - more so Loki but Hawkeye was surprisingly good. Tony Dalton steals every scene he's in.
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Jul 14, 2022 14:28
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Just finished up Ms. Marvel and while I thought the high school siege/cops siding with the community was the weakest part of the episode, the episode did cement my already unshakeable belief that I just want as much of Kamala and her awesome loving family interacting as I can get. Plus the mid-credits teaser suggesting Carol and Kamala may initially have a Rick Jones/Mar-Vell style relationship is awesome, as well as Carol's growing discomfort at realizing she's in the room of a super-fan  Also the Halal/Haram hats 
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Jul 14, 2022 14:30
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Jerusalem posted:Just finished up Ms. Marvel and while I thought the high school siege/cops siding with the community was the weakest part of the episode, the episode did cement my already unshakeable belief that I just want as much of Kamala and her awesome loving family interacting as I can get. Plus the mid-credits teaser suggesting Carol and Kamala may initially have a Rick Jones/Mar-Vell style relationship is awesome, as well as Carol's growing discomfort at realizing she's in the room of a super-fan I wonder does the band Kamala has being implied to be a Nega Band and Kamala and Carol having a Rick Jones/Mar'Vell relationship mean that Kamala can become a disembodied voice in Carol's head that can see what Carol sees and comment on it in real time as well as interact with Carol psionically. Cause that seems like it's a prime vehicle for comedy.
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Jul 14, 2022 14:34
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tsob posted:I wonder does the band Kamala has being implied to be a Nega Band and Kamala and Carol having a Rick Jones/Mar'Vell relationship mean that Kamala can become a disembodied voice in Carol's head that can see what Carol sees and comment on it in real time as well as interact with Carol psionically. Cause that seems like it's a prime vehicle for comedy. Yeah I hope so, that would be fantastic. Kamala all fan-girling in Carol's head while she's trying to deal with some alien gangsters or something.
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Jul 14, 2022 14:37
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tsob posted:So it's fine if he's Jewish and a villain, but a problem if he's Black and a villain? Again, at the level of discourse that we're at, this becomes a matter for Jewish audiences to decide and not you or me. The community that has actually been subject to these persecutions over the years, who are currently being subjected to denials of such persecutions, are first and foremost the ones who get to decide if Magneto's identity as a Holocaust survivor is no longer important enough or no longer up-to-date enough to be kept around. And I'm not aware of such viewers arguing in any notable quantity for Magneto to be changed in such a way. I may be wrong here, but on the contrary I almost always see Jewish fans being quite satisfied with how Magneto's origins are depicted, and that -- if anything -- they wished that this side of him got highlighted more often. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 14:57
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:If they really had balls they'd make a modern day Magneto a Palestinian.
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Jul 14, 2022 14:57
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:maybe being from 'another realm' makes you a mutant in this realm. But then Kamala's brother would be a mutant, too, and the point of that scene was that Kamala was somehow different from her brother. So that doesn't really work.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:01
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BrianWilly posted:I believe the optics of Magneto's character become different if you make him black, yes. It's not an end-all-be-all issue, but it pays to be careful here; historical and modern black identity being more wrongly-associated with aggression and violent criminality than other races means that such traits in a black villain reinforce these stereotypes more potently than they would for a Jewish villain, who is usually stereotyped in other ways. that one xmen that gave us Fassbender murdering nazis that fled to south america was cool, i want more nazi-hunter magneto
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Jul 14, 2022 15:04
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tsob posted:Just make him from the Middle East rather than Germany. I'm sure there have been plenty of inciting incidents in the last 50 odd years he can have experienced as a child in that area of the world. They're not as viscerally horrific as the holocaust, but that doesn't mean they're not horrific. Or that people don't need to know about them. It was brought up before you posted but if they do this they're gonna have to make him Palestinian, not Jewish
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Jul 14, 2022 15:06
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ookiimarukochan posted:It was brought up before you posted but if they do this they're gonna have to make him Palestinian, not Jewish You're not wrong. But they are 100% not going to do this.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:11
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BrianWilly posted:Again, at the level of discourse that we're at, this becomes a matter for Jewish audiences to decide and not you or me. I'm pretty sure it's for Disney to decide really, and for everyone else to deal with. It's not like our discussion here is going to change the decisions in reality, and Disney probably aren't going to be holding meetings with Jewish citizens assemblies to help decide the direction of the character either. All we can argue is what we think they should do or would like them to do, not what they will do. ookiimarukochan posted:It was brought up before you posted but if they do this they're gonna have to make him Palestinian, not Jewish Then do that. They probably won't, but it's a solution that keeps him Jewish (I'd presume you mean a Palestinian Jew at least) while not requiring he be a holocaust survivor who's roughly 100 years old.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:23
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Palestinian wouldn't work for Magneto. The whole point is that he wants to exterminate/convert all humans into the genetically superior race. It's about genetic supremacy and not land/religion. Magneto doesn't want New York to be mutant territory in a human world or for mutant-sympathizing humans to run the world. His whole metaphor/arc is that the Nazis taught him that hatred was about their very DNA and something they couldn't change. They couldn't run, try to co-exist, or just move somewhere else.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Palestinian wouldn't work for Magneto. The whole point is that he wants to exterminate/convert all humans into the genetically superior race. It's about genetic supremacy and not land/religion. Magneto doesn't want New York to be mutant territory in a human world or for mutant-sympathizing humans to run the world. His whole metaphor/arc is that the Nazis taught him that hatred was about their very DNA and something they couldn't change. They couldn't run, try to co-exist, or just move somewhere else. I have a radical idea; maybe they could change the metaphor/arc. Mutate it, if you will. An arc which the character wasn't influenced by for over a decade after his creation anyway. Never mind all those times that Magneto has been happy to co-exist with humans in some fashion in the comics.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:26
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tsob posted:By that same token, race relations have always been contentious in America, but maybe talking about them is extra important in a time when lots of people feel like racism basically no longer exists, when people are trying to ban teaching the history and context of it in schools, where killing mutan...Black people has caused months long periods of rioting world wide etc. You don't need that pitch. How about historically there have always been mutants, just very few (including Namor, Magneto and Oscar Isaac can do quadruple character duty as Apocalypse at some point)? Lately though, the Snap/UnSnap/Infinity energies have cause otherwise latent mutations to begin expressing themselves. Done. Magneto is still a Holocaust survivor. Charles Xavier is still a professor of genetics. So far both have been quietly looking around for other mutant and now a bunch of them are appearing. The DoDC is the government anti-mutant agency being born. They'll start specifically focusing on mutants because the odds of somebody getting bitten by a radioactive spider (and getting spider-powers instead of dying from poison cancer) or finding a magic thingie are pretty low but all a mutant needs to do to get powers is be born.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:33
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Everyone posted:You don't need that pitch. How about historically there have always been mutants, just very few (including Namor, Magneto and Oscar Isaac can do quadruple character duty as Apocalypse at some point)? Lately though, the Snap/UnSnap/Infinity energies have cause otherwise latent mutations to begin expressing themselves. Done. Magneto is still a Holocaust survivor. Charles Xavier is still a professor of genetics. So far both have been quietly looking around for other mutant and now a bunch of them are appearing. The DoDC is the government anti-mutant agency being born. They'll start specifically focusing on mutants because the odds of somebody getting bitten by a radioactive spider (and getting spider-powers instead of dying from poison cancer) or finding a magic thingie are pretty low but all a mutant needs to do to get powers is be born. None of what you just said addresses the characters ages. If Magneto is still a holocaust survivor then he's one who's roughly 100 years old. And if Charles is his compatriot for decades, first as students, then as fellow mutants researching and trying to protect their own kind together before becoming competing leaders of mutantkind, then Charles needs to be about 100 too. Only he and Magneto can't be using the same means to stay young, at least if you tie it to Magneto's inherent powers as basically everyone wants it to be. So how is Xavier doing it in this version of events that won't feel like the movie is going out of it's way with clunky plot devices to have two old men who don't actually look that old in the plot? You know, instead of just making them be roughly the age they look.
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Jul 14, 2022 15:43
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I don't know if I am very much the odd one out but from the very beginning I've never wanted the x-men in the MCU. There's so loving many of them, and the longer it's gone on they've made it harder and harder to come up with a reason for them to suddenly exist. I also liked when the MCU was slightly more 'realistic', whatever that meant but well we've got Bao bun Gods and literal do anything magic so I suppose I can't complain I can deal with them from other universes but just...keep them there. Also I completely missed that brief x-men theme stinger in that episode because it just sounded like someone's phone from the street outside Oh and also Brie Larson looked...extremely thin?
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Jul 14, 2022 15:44
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tsob posted:None of what you just said addresses the characters ages. If Magneto is still a holocaust survivor then he's one who's roughly 100 years old. And if Charles is his compatriot for decades, first as students, then as fellow mutants researching and trying to protect their own kind together before becoming competing leaders of mutantkind, then Charles needs to be about 100 too. Only he and Magneto can't be using the same means to stay young, at least if you tie it to Magneto's inherent powers as basically everyone wants it to be. So how is Xavier doing it in this version of events that won't feel like the movie is going out of it's way with clunky plot devices to have two old men who don't actually look that old in the plot? You know, instead of just making them be roughly the age they look. they're from another universe where uhhhh it's currently 1975. problem solved
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Jul 14, 2022 16:00
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Magneto uses his magnetic personality to stay young.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:01
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Xavier has a special anti-aging wheelchair, a gift from his friend King T'Chaka bing bang boom
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Jul 14, 2022 16:05
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eke out posted:they're from another universe where uhhhh it's currently 1975. problem solved Honestly? I'd be more okay with this or the holocaust happening in 1965 in a universe they stop across from than them magically being young, just so Magneto can keep being a holocaust survivor. At least it'd tie both of their ages to one thing, rather than both coincidentally being young in independent fashion. I do think you'd lose the "spent decades researching and nurturing mutants" thing with that, but that may be getting nixed anyway.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:09
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They can just ignore the time difference. Magneto is a Holocaust survivor and also somehow looks like a tween in 2025, it doesn't feel that important to rebuild an arc for him the way it made sense to pretend nuhumans never happened. We're getting a Moon Girl show, right? I hope she's a mutant too.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:13
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Aipsh posted:Oh and also Brie Larson looked...extremely thin? My wife commented on this too, could lend credence to her being trapped in the Negative Zone before the swap? Maybe some MCU version of Prison 42?
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Jul 14, 2022 16:13
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Just have Magneto explain he was de-aged to being a baby or whatever and do a quick cutaway gag
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Jul 14, 2022 16:20
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Dukberry posted:They can just ignore the time difference. Magneto is a Holocaust survivor and also somehow looks like a tween in 2025, it doesn't feel that important to rebuild an arc for him the way it made sense to pretend nuhumans never happened. they're making a disney cartoon show of Moon Girl. I don't imagine it'll be heavy on MCU lore, but if they go into the origins of her super-smarts yeah I imagine they'll just ret-con it to say she's a mutant.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:24
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Klungar posted:My wife commented on this too, could lend credence to her being trapped in the Negative Zone before the swap? Maybe some MCU version of Prison 42? Brie Larson is insanely ripped. Her social media account leading up to the filming of The Marvels was all about her working out. Rarity posted:Captain Marvel is a cosmic powered superhero who's best friend's daughter recently got energy powers, there that's all the context you need Girlfriend*
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Jul 14, 2022 16:45
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Dukberry posted:They can just ignore the time difference. Magneto is a Holocaust survivor and also somehow looks like a tween in 2025, it doesn't feel that important to rebuild an arc for him the way it made sense to pretend nuhumans never happened. 20-something Erik was hunting Nazis and had an encounter with some weird phenomenon that zapped him decades forward in time. He's still a Holocaust survivor, just one with more than a half century gap in his experience of time and history.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:57
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You're establishing the rules for mutants from scratch you can just say "yeah some mutants age slowly" and have Magneto and Xavier both be 100 year old dudes that look 60. There's already a shitload of other x-men characters that are super old but don't look it so just make it a general feature of the x-gene rather than a specific power side effect.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:04
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Aipsh posted:I don't know if I am very much the odd one out but from the very beginning I've never wanted the x-men in the MCU. There's so loving many of them, and the longer it's gone on they've made it harder and harder to come up with a reason for them to suddenly exist. I also liked when the MCU was slightly more 'realistic', whatever that meant but well we've got Bao bun Gods and literal do anything magic so I suppose I can't complain even with the Ms. Marvel ending, I’m doubtful that we’re getting a proper introduction of the X-Men into the MCU until after Secret Wars, which would allow for some reality-altering retcons. given the relative lack of leaks or rumors, let alone announced projects, it feels like it’s still quite a ways off. Having said that, SDCC and D23 are coming up and I could be proven wrong
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Jul 14, 2022 17:34
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Somewhere in the multiverse, they actually made X-Men Origins: Magneto where it was all him hunting Nazis in Argentina and it was probably great.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:44
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Barry Convex posted:even with the Ms. Marvel ending, I’m doubtful that we’re getting a proper introduction of the X-Men into the MCU until after Secret Wars, which would allow for some reality-altering retcons. given the relative lack of leaks or rumors, let alone announced projects, it feels like it’s still quite a ways off. We probably won't get mutants for a while, but that's not what the ending implied by anyone's count. All it did was give the first proper tease of them, and introduce us to the first mutant we see. Unless some further season decides "Nah, Kamala's not a mutant after all" then it doesn't matter if it's another 100 years before we get an MCU X-Men film, really. They've said she's a mutant, so that's the first introduction of mutants as a concept into the MCU unless they actively walk it back later. The fact that [Black Panther 2 spoilers]Namor is in Black Panther 2 means they're probably going to indicate he's a mutant too, as more build up to the mutants in the MCU. Again, it won't be a proper introduction of mutants; it's just more build up towards that happening. live with fruit posted:Somewhere in the multiverse, they actually made X-Men Origins: Magneto where it was all him hunting Nazis in Argentina and it was probably great. Going off Fox's form for X-Men films it almost certainly wasn't great. It was more likely to just be mediocre dreck that was badly paced and misunderstood the appeal of almost everything in it. Logan was the only great X-Men film they ever put out, and most of the rest were barely passable. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 17:57
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tsob posted:Honestly? I'd be more okay with this or the holocaust happening in 1965 in a universe they stop across from than them magically being young, just so Magneto can keep being a holocaust survivor. At least it'd tie both of their ages to one thing, rather than both coincidentally being young in independent fashion. I do think you'd lose the "spent decades researching and nurturing mutants" thing with that, but that may be getting nixed anyway. This feels like it would tread a little too close to actual Holocaust-denial bullshit. "Was it in the 40s or 60s? Does anyone really remember? It probably never happened at all?" gently caress anything even close to that. I don't believe that you are saying anything like that, but that whole idea of "the Holocaust happened at a different time in different universe" just raises my hackles a bit. I think Magneto needs to come out of the Holocaust as part of his characterization as a person who was deliberately targeted due to his genetic heritage - first as a Jew and then as a mutant. But there's no reason they can't change Charles up a little. Maybe instead of being a friend/colleague of Erik Lehnsherr, Charles Xavier was much younger and their initial relationship was one of mentor/student with Erik becoming more radicalized over time while Charles took a more moderate approach.
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Jul 14, 2022 18:04
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Hopefully they introduce the X-Men individually, or at least not all at once. It's been ten (?) movies and the only characters who've gotten actual development are Logan, Mystique, Charles and Magneto. Give Storm and Cyclops some room to breath this time.
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Jul 14, 2022 18:08
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Everyone posted:I think Magneto needs to come out of the Holocaust as part of his characterization as a person who was deliberately targeted due to his genetic heritage - first as a Jew and then as a mutant. What I'm mostly getting from this thread is that "Jewish holocaust survivor" is the most important feature of Magneto for some people; the one thing that defines them above any and all other parts of the character. That you could change the nature of their relationship with Charles before you changed their being a Jewish holocaust survivor. Not that they're Jewish or even that they're a holocaust survivor generally (since several other groups were placed into concentration camps beyond Jews); but that they're specifically a Jewish survivor of the holocaust. Which is just weird to me, honestly. Is there anything about the character more central, in your opinion? Like, do you think they could change Magneto's powers, ideals, morals etc. before they change that one aspect? Which again, wasn't even made part of the character for over a decade after creation. He demonstrably has existed and worked as a character people love without that specific origin before.
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Jul 14, 2022 18:48
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tsob posted:Which again, wasn't even made part of the character for over a decade after creation. He demonstrably has existed and worked as a character people love without that specific origin before. were you reading xmen during the first decade magneto was introduced, 1963-1973, and attached to that characterization? because to me it seems like that is more than half a century ago
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Jul 14, 2022 18:53
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