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Fat Samurai posted:I'll bite. Not really a flaw but a bit of a philosophical problem for me: it's more a performance than a game, because an all powerful GM is propping up the losing team all the way through. I'd say it sounds like from the description you were playing Sects and Violets, which is a script not really intended for new players as part of the point of that script is specifically to make the game's logic more convoluted once you're familiar with the base script Trouble Brewing, which generally has characters more in keeping with roles from Werewolf and Mafia. Dropping you into that may have been a bad move on the part of your storyteller, and I can see why it would create a certain impression, especially when it sounds like the mechanics of those characters weren't exactly clear. The characters that swap roles are the Barber and Snake Charmer, but the swaps happen as a result of player actions and the GM has little influence over their effects, and the roles which gets executed if they come out are the Mutant and the target of the Cerenovus, and the only decision the GM makes in those cases is to put those tokens in the bag to draw, and whether to execute the player if they do come out. Ultimately it's up to the affected players whether coming out and revealing their role is worth risking death, and whether that death is worth the information it would bring. The storyteller in most scripts doesn't really have that much power. They generally decide some things at setup, and from there make a few key decisions as the game progresses, but except in one very specific instance with a particular experimental character not in the base game, they can never actually break the rules that lay down what they're allowed to do, and what they're allowed to do is public knowledge to the players. You're right though that what decisions they do make, they are indeed encouraged to help out the team that's losing, and I do understand that sort of agency isn't for everyone, but I think generally it helps to think of the storyteller as just another player of the game who has something of a privileged position and certain abilities they can use based on the character they're playing as, same as any other character. CitizenKeen posted:But that's different than the game being flawed. I think what Bottom Liner was saying was not that the game was flawed. Like, to flip it round, I'd say that even if the game is flawed, it's still probably my favourite social deduction game. But in saying that I'm not conceding that the game is flawed, even though I wrote the words "the game is flawed" in that sentence. I think Bottom Liner meant something similar, they don't particularly like the sound of the mechanics, but even if it were to turn out that those mechanics were a function of a flawed design, that wouldn't matter so much since people clearly enjoy it a lot and want an experience like BotC provides.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:03
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I think it depends on where you draw the line between game mechanics vs. metagame social experience. From one perspective it's mechanically flawed because it's entirely reliant on the whims of someone deliberately putting their thumb on the scale and hoping that they're making it more interesting instead of just playing accidental kingmaker. From another perspective, that is the game mechanic, that's what it's about.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:06
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Reveilled posted:I think what Bottom Liner was saying was not that the game was flawed. Like, to flip it round, I'd say that even if the game is flawed, it's still probably my favourite social deduction game. But in saying that I'm not conceding that the game is flawed, even though I wrote the words "the game is flawed" in that sentence. I think Bottom Liner meant something similar, they don't particularly like the sound of the mechanics, but even if it were to turn out that those mechanics were a function of a flawed design, that wouldn't matter so much since people clearly enjoy it a lot and want an experience like BotC provides. the holy poopacy posted:I think it depends on where you draw the line between game mechanics vs. metagame social experience. From one perspective it's mechanically flawed because it's entirely reliant on the whims of someone deliberately putting their thumb on the scale and hoping that they're making it more interesting instead of just playing accidental kingmaker. From another perspective, that is the game mechanic, that's what it's about. I remember my second game of Battlestar Galactica, where I was curious what was in the President's cards, so I picked Tom Zarek (second in line for Presidency), and another player ended up switching out for Roslin (first in line for the Presidency). I was not a Cylon, and I had no reason to suspect Roslin was the Cylon, but I really wanted to be President, so I kept running for President. I didn't care if the ship blew up, I wanted to see what was in those cards. The crew eventually threw me in the brig so I would stop running for President. After the game ended, they were quite cranky that I wasn't "playing right". (And that was a fair accusation.) The Storyteller in Blood on the Clocktower has a specific goal of keeping the game going on for as many nights as possible. That's their goal. Sometimes they'll pull it off, sometimes they won't, and that's fine. But I don't know that I feel like that's any different than other games where you're manipulating the balance of teams, such as the merger in Ankh or in Churchill. Sometimes you'll angle for something and fail and the outcome won't be what you want and that'll cause a different person to win. Does every team that wins in Unfathomable/BSG or whatever win because their team played perfectly, or do they sometimes win because the other team tried to do something and didn't quite pull it off? Regardless, I think there's maybe less to argue about here than I thought, and I'm fine with people not liking BotC, so apologies for coming in hot.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:22
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I nominate CitizenKeen.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:50
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the holy poopacy posted:I think it depends on where you draw the line between game mechanics vs. metagame social experience. From one perspective it's mechanically flawed because it's entirely reliant on the whims of someone deliberately putting their thumb on the scale and hoping that they're making it more interesting instead of just playing accidental kingmaker. From another perspective, that is the game mechanic, that's what it's about. Fair I suppose. For me though I’d say it’s definitely more of a mechanic, there’s a definite difference between the role of a Storyteller in Clocktower and a DM in something like D&D. Like, at any point a DM can potentially decide something is happening, work outside the game’s rules to create an experience, ideally in the service of fun. But if you’re storytelling Clocktower and the Empath is going to get info on night 2 you think is going to be bad for the evil team, and you want to give them false info as a result, if the Empath is not in a drunk or poisoned state, giving them false info is against the rules and would be cheating. You can’t even unilaterally decide to make them drunk or poisoned, because you decide who is the drunk at game start after deciding pre-setup if there is going to be a drunk at all, and the poisoner player on the evil team decides who is poisoned. In these circumstances the player must receive true information, and that’s the scenario the vast majority of the time in Clocktower, with the storyteller only making choices when the game specifically allows it. So the storyteller role is a lot more limited than the curator of a social experience usually is, and the fact that they operate under strict rules means you can reason around actions the storyteller could have taken.
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Jul 14, 2022 16:51
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CitizenKeen posted:Huh. Fair. I did not parse that sentence that way at all, but maybe I should have assumed good intent, and not opened with a snarky comment. That's on me, apologies to the thread.. Yeah that is how I meant it. I was saying I suspect it's flawed as a deduction game for the reasons stated but even if that's true it seems to be a big hit for people wanting the type of experience it provides. I wasn't saying I know it is flawed as I haven't played it. Or rather, I have serious issues with the role designs and moderator role but can see how it comes together for folks wanting that style of deduction game. We play ONUW with only the hard info roles and think it's great but hate the wacky roles so that gives a parallel of what I mean.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:08
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As much fun as it is to reveal to the group that Jane isn't the clever Investigator, she's just the town Drunk, it's far more satisfying when they work it out for themselves. It's such a great feeling (as a Storyteller, and it's hilarious when you're a fellow player) when the armchair quarterback self-professed-logician is halfway through their monologue about why Steve is absolutely, definitely the Demon and they stop mid-sentence. "Oh poo poo, I think I'm the Drunk." I hate not including the Drunk in Trouble Brewing games, but if I did it in every game then that would be another datapoint for the good team.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:10
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What was the problem with SUSD review? I don’t think I ever watched it or if I did it was a long rear end time ago
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Jul 14, 2022 17:16
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jesus WEP posted:What was the problem with SUSD review? I don’t think I ever watched it or if I did it was a long rear end time ago
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Jul 14, 2022 17:24
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jesus WEP posted:What was the problem with SUSD review? I don’t think I ever watched it or if I did it was a long rear end time ago Up until that point, they had avoided doing videos on Kickstarter games, because they felt that they couldn't review a game that hadn't released, etc. They wouldn't even review games that had been released on Kickstarter and had come out until the game came to retail. Then, without announcing a change in policy, they released a video on BotC proclaiming it as the second coming, just gushing, contributing to a serious air of FOMO, while the Kickstarter campaign was running. As a huge fan of SU&SD, the kindest way to describe it was that it left a foul taste in your mouth. It was also Kylie Wroe's first video (intern), and there was some debate about whether the criticism was sexist in nature, etc. Wroe was great, the blame lies squarely at the feet of Quintin Smith and Matt Lees, who should have announced that they were going to cover KS games, let that discussion play out, and then release the video. Releasing the video square in the middle of the hype train was, as noted, unprofessional. Redundant posted:My main issue with it was that it completely ignored (or was oblivious to) the position of privilege it came from and sold in incredibly glowing terms (it was literally described as their favourite game, ever) an experience that most people won't get to partake in. The idea of having about a dozen very creative, heavily invested board gamer friends that you can share a game with multiple nights in a row over multiple weekends. Eh, we never seem to question the privilege of being able to afford Gloomhaven, but a lot of people will never have the money to be able to partake in that experience either. But this thread has a lot more rich loners than it does poor socialites. You don't need a bunch of "very creative, heavily invested board gamer" friends, you just need a dozen normal friends and a few bottles of wine. CitizenKeen fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 17:25
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jesus WEP posted:What was the problem with SUSD review? I don’t think I ever watched it or if I did it was a long rear end time ago Quins just went really, really, unabashedly hard in his recommendation. Opening line was that it was the best game he'd ever played. He batted aside any qualms about the price. And he got a rule wrong, in that he was taught that the moderator can lie if it would be fun (which is not recommended in the rulebook).
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Jul 14, 2022 17:26
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“Yes it’s very expensive and kind of ugly, and there is an argument to be made that it’s too big, but if you care about this hobby that’s not an argument you’re going to make.” He also starts the video by saying it may be his favorite game of all time and defended it on Reddit as not being like Werewolf. They ran the review while the Kickstarter was live too. All of this wrapped up in their previously fervent position on Kickstarter stuff left everyone feeling like it was more of an informercial than review. And in a later video said “it’s not a very good game” lol
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Jul 14, 2022 17:27
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jesus WEP posted:What was the problem with SUSD review? I don’t think I ever watched it or if I did it was a long rear end time ago As I recall the main issue was that they had a very strict policy of never reviewing games with open kickstarters for a bunch of good reasons (extremely high prices, questionable balancing of a game poorly tested, extremely low availability post-kickstarter, and the significant risk that a backed project might be subject to endless delays or never materialise at all), and then just flat out broke it for this one game they really liked, and given that they liked it so much that they broke this rule, it basically had to have no flaws at all in their eyes, which meant that it had basically none of SU&SD's usual balance where even the best games get a little bit of a kicking to show they've done due dilligence and are doing a proper review rather than just shilling. I think it came from good intentions, they really did just like the game that much, but its super weird to hear the boring frugal dads of board game reviews suddenly tell you that the $100 kickstarter for a social deduction game is totally worth the money and the game is practically flawless we promise.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:28
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CitizenKeen posted:Up until that point, they had avoided doing videos on Kickstarter games, because they felt that they couldn't review a game that hadn't released, etc. They wouldn't even review games that had been released on Kickstarter and had come out until the game came to retail. Everybody else does it, why can't they? Which is probably what they looked at. I'm not excusing it, and this poo poo is a major reason why I no longer crowdfund games.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:29
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Mayveena posted:Everybody else does it, why can't they? Which is probably what they looked at. I'm not excusing it, and this poo poo is a major reason why I no longer crowdfund games. I mean, they can. I have no problem with them doing it. I have a problem with them having a rule, then breaking it. Change the rule, then make the video.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:30
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Bottom Liner posted:And in a later video said “it’s not a very good game” lol Got a link? That I would love to see.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:31
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Bottom Liner posted:“Yes it’s very expensive and kind of ugly, and there is an argument to be made that it’s too big, but if you care about this hobby that’s not an argument you’re going to make.” I was going to quote this line, but I haven't rewatched the video and didn't feel like doing so to pin down the verbiage. That line definitely raised my eyebrows at the time. Mayveena posted:Everybody else does it, why can't they? Which is probably what they looked at. I'm not excusing it, and this poo poo is a major reason why I no longer crowdfund games. They went into quite a lot of detail about why they disliked KS hype-beasts for their Kingdom Death Monster review. They even took a principled stance not to give such things the oxygen of publicity. So it was funny that they pulled a reverse ferret when a KS hype-beast came along that they liked. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 14, 2022 17:34
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CitizenKeen posted:Got a link? That I would love to see. It was in his collection video, but having gone and watched it myself I’m pretty sure it was a sarcastic comment.
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Jul 14, 2022 17:41
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Mr. Squishy posted:I was going to quote this line, but I haven't rewatched the video and didn't feel like doing so to pin down the verbiage. That line definitely raised my eyebrows at the time. See OP. There was no need to mention that specific game,
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Jul 14, 2022 17:58
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My FLGS finally has some more Lacerda games in stock, I decided to go with The Gallerist. Going to try and get it to table soon, anyone have any tips/common rules gotchas to look out for? This group successfully got a game of Kanban in so I have high hopes we can make this one happen too!
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Jul 14, 2022 18:31
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Reveilled posted:Fair I suppose. For me though I’d say it’s definitely more of a mechanic, there’s a definite difference between the role of a Storyteller in Clocktower and a DM in something like D&D. Like, at any point a DM can potentially decide something is happening, work outside the game’s rules to create an experience, ideally in the service of fun. But if you’re storytelling Clocktower and the Empath is going to get info on night 2 you think is going to be bad for the evil team, and you want to give them false info as a result, if the Empath is not in a drunk or poisoned state, giving them false info is against the rules and would be cheating. You can’t even unilaterally decide to make them drunk or poisoned, because you decide who is the drunk at game start after deciding pre-setup if there is going to be a drunk at all, and the poisoner player on the evil team decides who is poisoned. In these circumstances the player must receive true information, and that’s the scenario the vast majority of the time in Clocktower, with the storyteller only making choices when the game specifically allows it. The reason I see it as a grey area is that the Storyteller's mandate is largely subjective and unquantifiable. They have defined rules and some loose goals to work towards, but no real failure state. If they string the game along to the final night, but their answers paint one team into a corner and result in a fairly straightforward win for the other team, did the Storyteller meet their goals or not? Was the outcome even the Storyteller's fault or was it likely to happen anyhow? They may never even really know. CitizenKeen posted:The Storyteller in Blood on the Clocktower has a specific goal of keeping the game going on for as many nights as possible. That's their goal. Sometimes they'll pull it off, sometimes they won't, and that's fine. But I don't know that I feel like that's any different than other games where you're manipulating the balance of teams, such as the merger in Ankh or in Churchill. Sometimes you'll angle for something and fail and the outcome won't be what you want and that'll cause a different person to win. The difference here (other than the obvious asymmetry of the Storyteller role) is that in a game like Churchill, if you fail to keep the opposing sides balanced and cause a different person to win, they win instead of you. The Storyteller doesn't really win or lose, except that if things go catastrophically awry the group will probably chalk it up as your fuckup. It is a game-like role, whether or not it qualifies as a game mechanic depends on how rigorously you define "game."
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Jul 14, 2022 19:03
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the holy poopacy posted:The difference here (other than the obvious asymmetry of the Storyteller role) is that in a game like Churchill, if you fail to keep the opposing sides balanced and cause a different person to win, they win instead of you. The Storyteller doesn't really win or lose, except that if things go catastrophically awry the group will probably chalk it up as your fuckup. It is a game-like role, whether or not it qualifies as a game mechanic depends on how rigorously you define "game."
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Jul 14, 2022 19:05
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SUSD does Kickstarter games all the time. They reviewed Etherfields fairly recently, and Mind MGMT coincidentally right before the Kickstarter reprint launched.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:13
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PRADA SLUT posted:SUSD does Kickstarter games all the time. They reviewed Etherfields fairly recently, and Mind MGMT coincidentally right before the Kickstarter reprint launched. Yes. We're discussing something they did in 2019.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:16
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I backed Etherfields and right after the SUSD review (seemingly legitimately) criticized some of the games progression mechanics, the developer implemented some changes to the second printing and a new game mode that avoids the aforementioned system altogether Seems like the new beta
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Jul 14, 2022 19:21
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GetDunked posted:My FLGS finally has some more Lacerda games in stock, I decided to go with The Gallerist. Going to try and get it to table soon, anyone have any tips/common rules gotchas to look out for? This group successfully got a game of Kanban in so I have high hopes we can make this one happen too! Always spend influence towards an action cost if it doesn't drop you below a pink spot - it's free money. Try to never run out of assistants, but also never have more than four outside the Market.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:55
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Mr. Squishy posted:And he got a rule wrong, in that he was taught that the moderator can lie if it would be fun (which is not recommended in the rulebook). oh lmao this was wrong? That bit from the video instantly made me write the game off entirely since nothing I do matters if all of my knowledge could just be lies for the hell of it. it was pretty much an anti-advertisement but maybe I should give it another look if that’s not the case.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:48
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Many of the roles do that thing exactly though. There’s one that makes literally all the info given to villagers incorrect. That’s what I mean by arbitrary and random.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:59
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Bottom Liner posted:Many of the roles do that thing exactly though. There’s one that makes literally all the info given to villagers incorrect. That’s what I mean by arbitrary and random. I assume you're referring to the Vortex. Note that it does not give the Storyteller any leeway. It is not arbitrary or random. The Storyteller must give false information with the Vortex, they can never give true information. If you can figure out a truth, and the Storyteller either confirms or denies the truth, then you have determined if the Vortex is in play. If the Vortex is in play, then it's Bizarro World, which is hard to deal with after a lot of wine but is also fun.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:03
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:oh lmao this was wrong? That bit from the video instantly made me write the game off entirely since nothing I do matters if all of my knowledge could just be lies for the hell of it. it was pretty much an anti-advertisement but maybe I should give it another look if that’s not the case. This was the reason I never even gave the game a chance as well.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:11
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King Burgundy posted:This was the reason I never even gave the game a chance as well. Sources of uncertainty in "Trouble Brewing", the beginner script for BotC:
That's it. That's the five ways the Storyteller can mess with the truth. No more (unless I missed one). Those 5 ways are a lot. So yes, the Storyteller can really sway games. But it's not like it's all chaos and randomness. That's it. Footnote the First: The intermediate scripts have a lot, lot more uncertainty because they also give good a lot more powers. But they're designed for people who have already begun to solve the "If you know that I know that you know that I know that you know... Land war in Asia" game. Footnote the Second: Admittedly, the Storyteller also has a lot of latitude to sway the game by how they structure the truth. When the Washerwoman wakes up the first night, they learn that one of two characters is a specific Townsfolk. That has to be true. But which Townsfolk the Storyteller reveals, and who they indicate is the other option, generates a lot of uncertainty and can create little standoffs. Point the Washerwoman to Angela (the Fortune Teller) and Amir (the Drunk Investigator) and say that one of them is the Fortune Teller. That's true! But it also immediately makes Angela (and soon, the Washerwoman) suspect Amir, because Angela is the Fortune Teller. And then Amir will maybe begin to question if they're the Drunk, but maybe instead they question if the Washerwoman is actually a bluffing evil person, etc.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:33
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ALSO. (Sorry, I'm caffeinated.) Something I don't see talked about often enough is the Travellers and Fables. Which are amazing inclusivity tools that don't really exist in a lot of Werewolf/Mafia clones. Travellers are kind of cool, they're special roles for people who have to leave early or arrive late. They can't be any of the normal roles because the ratio is well established. So instead they could be good or could be evil, and their ability is helpful either way. Like the Gunslinger, who can kill people who vote. More importantly, the Fabled. These are great special rule tokens that the Storyteller can lay out that make onboarding so much easier and make the game more welcoming to all. Your eight-year-old kid wants to play, but is nervous about talking and strategizing with grown-ups? Add The Revolutionary: "2 neighboring players are known to be the same alignment. Once per game, 1 of them registers falsely." quote:If a player is unable to understand the rules of the game, is deaf, unable to communicate, or otherwise impaired in some way, they may still participate by teaming up with a player that they trust. These two players are the same alignment, and sit next to each other, so can whisper to each other throughout the game. The experienced player can help the disadvantaged player in whatever way is needed, talking on their behalf, or suggesting what to do. Your group has an established meta that makes it hard for new players to feel comfortable? Here's the Buddhist: "For the first 2 minutes of each day, veteran players may not talk." quote:When experienced players find themselves in a game full of beginners, it is often the case that they dominate the game due to their enthusiasm and knowledge. Having a Buddhist in play encourages the new players to talk and to learn how to play using their own intelligence. And my personal favorite, I love it so much, the Angel: "Something bad might happen to whoever is most responsible for the death of a new player." quote:Being the only new player in a group can sometimes be overwhelming. Being protected by the Angel encourages all players to keep the new players alive for as long as possible, which means new players have more fun and contribute to the game more.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:44
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CitizenKeen posted:I assume you're referring to the Vortex. Note that it does not give the Storyteller any leeway. It is not arbitrary or random. The Storyteller must give false information with the Vortex, they can never give true information. If you can figure out a truth, and the Storyteller either confirms or denies the truth, then you have determined if the Vortex is in play. If the Vortex is in play, then it's Bizarro World, which is hard to deal with after a lot of wine but is also fun. Yeah, and a key thing about this is that on the script that includes the Vortox, the usual first puzzle for the good team to solve is "is the demon a Vortox", so they'll often be comparing notes on the information they get to work that out. And there are multiple ways to do that on that script--there's the Flowergirl, who learns each night if the demon voted the previous day, and the Town Crier who learns each night if a minion nominated the previous day. So if no-one votes on day 1 and you're the Flowergirl, if you are woken up the next night to be told the Demon voted yesterday, you can be pretty sure there's a Vortox in play. It's really hard to hide the Vortox for the whole game and convince the town that up is down, Sooner or later they work it out and just reverse their info, essentially undoing the curse. But what it does force is for all those characters who get binary yes/no info in the script to use up some of that significant power on confirmation, and then also communicating that confirmation to town. It also tends to mean that someone powerful on the good team needs to be telling the other players "Hey, I'm the Town Crier/Flowergirl/Oracle, I know there's no Vortox in play", which is risky because it paints a target on their back from the demon. I'm not sure if SU&SD were thinking of this, but it was one of the things that was a popular talking point among players, there is exactly one situation where the storyteller is permitted to tell lies and break rules just for the hell of it, and that's when you're playing with a homebrew script that has the Atheist experimental character on it, and the Atheist is in play. To be clear (for anyone who hasn't played the game), this character is not in the base game, but it was part of the kickstarter extras, so it never comes up unless you all as a group decide to play some homebrew script you found online or one your players made. If an Atheist is in play, there is no evil team, the storyteller instead breaks the rules to simulate a "real" game, but one player (the Atheist) knows that it's all bullshit, and needs to convince the town that Demons don't actually exist and that they need to nominate and execute the storyteller instead to win. That's probably the most clear cut case of the game just being fully arbitrary made up zaniness, but a group absolutely needs to go out of its way to actually seek that out, it will never come up in standard play. Maybe that's the thing SU&SD were referring to, but if so it was definitely misleading to give the impression that such things are a standard feature of advanced play.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:47
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CitizenKeen, your posts have done more to sell the game to me than anything else I’ve encountered
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Jul 14, 2022 22:48
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PRADA SLUT posted:SUSD does Kickstarter games all the time. They reviewed Etherfields fairly recently, and Mind MGMT coincidentally right before the Kickstarter reprint launched. I think both of the reviews were done when the first KS copies reached backers.
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Jul 14, 2022 23:39
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Doctor Spaceman posted:I think both of the reviews were done when the first KS copies reached backers. They were, unless you were in the second wave. Which was still weird because you couldn’t actually buy the game when the review came out. I don’t even think the pledge manager was open. The second wave still hasn’t hit most of the globe (including North America and the EU).
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Jul 15, 2022 00:15
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MizuZero posted:CitizenKeen, your posts have done more to sell the game to me than anything else I’ve encountered Very same, honestly it sounds rad as hell.
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Jul 15, 2022 00:49
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lol, holy poo poo. i forgot to add that everyone in the room was a gay male. And the best moment (for me, personally) was when I added the Baron to the mix (who ended up being my fuckbud) and then everyone voted to execute the Saint (good friend, ex from years ago) except for my current boyfriend. 
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Jul 15, 2022 01:05
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The more I read about botc the less I like it tbh. Just what social deduction games needed, a kingmaking GM
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Jul 15, 2022 04:41
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same. I watched the videos and it seemed.. fine. would rather lie to people in skullJove posted:lol, holy poo poo. bg thread: the baron ended up being my fuckbud
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#
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Jul 15, 2022 05:18
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