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Did people really "love" Magneto back before they added his Holocaust history anyway? I'd assume he was at most a by-the-numbers villain with a somewhat more interesting superpower that writers had a little more fun writing wy during that period.
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Jul 14, 2022 18:57
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Magneto being a Holocaust survivor seems as central to his character as Bruce Wayne's parents being murdered.
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Jul 14, 2022 18:58
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I hope they give Magneto his bnb from MVC2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vncbvNX5Ts
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Jul 14, 2022 19:02
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thrawn527 posted:But then Kamala's brother would be a mutant, too, and the point of that scene was that Kamala was somehow different from her brother. So that doesn't really work. 
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Jul 14, 2022 19:03
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eke out posted:were you reading xmen during the first decade magneto was introduced, 1963-1973, and attached to that characterization? because to me it seems like that is more than half a century ago That isn't an argument against change though; that's just saying people like a thing. I guarantee you anyone arguing you can't change the sex/race of whatever White male comics characters they're angry about have made the same type of argument in the past. Is it any more valid for this case than for those? duck trucker posted:Did people really "love" Magneto back before they added his Holocaust history anyway? I'd assume he was at most a by-the-numbers villain with a somewhat more interesting superpower that writers had a little more fun writing wy during that period. Yes; why do you think he kept appearing for over a decade before that history was introduced in the first place? A quick Google check says he appeared in more than 40 comics across more than a dozen arcs before the holocaust history was added; appearing in several lines of comics outside the X-Men to boot. He was a character in Avengers, Fantastic Four, Journey Into Mystery and Amazing Adventures books. Which is more appearances in 12 years post introduction than Doc. Ock as another contemporary villain that people loved. Who also didn't guest in nearly as many lines of comics, being limited solely to Amazing Spiderman comics during that time. live with fruit posted:Magneto being a Holocaust survivor seems as central to his character as Bruce Wayne's parents being murdered. It might seem it, but it demonstrably isn't. Batman's parents are killed on the first page of the first issue to introduce him. It seems it because it's been made so much a part of his character in media that have featured him over the last few decades, particularly the movies. It's definitely a part of the various cartoons, comics, games etc, but the shorter run time of movies and the more limited number of them mean that it's a larger presence in them, I suppose.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:13
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Aipsh posted:I don't know if I am very much the odd one out but from the very beginning I've never wanted the x-men in the MCU. There's so loving many of them, and the longer it's gone on they've made it harder and harder to come up with a reason for them to suddenly exist. While I do like those characters in general, The Xmen's stories always relied on the idea of a world where the existence of Mutants has been public knowledge for years, maybe decades. The bigotry and distrust Xavier and Magneto are fighting against are entrenched, not a sudden development. The MCU hasn't even mentioned mutants before now, aside from one cameo in an alternate dimension.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:17
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I’m guessing you could probably find a more recent traumatic event you could base his identity around, but then you’d have to actually try and then listen to all the dumb nerd rage. It’s probably not worth the effort.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:17
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tsob posted:That isn't an argument against change though; that's just saying people like a thing. I guarantee you anyone arguing you can't change the sex/race of whatever White male comics characters they're angry about have made the same type of argument in the past. Is it any more valid for this case than for those? who gives a poo poo, his jewish identity has been that way longer than probably most of us in this thread have been alive and is meaningful to many people and literally a core part of his characterization for the vast majority of fans. it is not even remotely the same argument as the people mad that someone cast a generic white character as another race or gender
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Jul 14, 2022 19:28
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eke out posted:it is not even remotely the same argument as the people mad that someone cast a generic white character as another race or gender I bet you the people who make that argument say that the identity is too meaningful too.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:31
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tsob posted:I bet you the people who make that argument say that the identity is too meaningful too. fyi you can always just gently caress off instead of doubling down on "actually, arguing a minority character should continue to be represented that way is the same thing as saying all white characters should always be white"
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Jul 14, 2022 19:34
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Magneto is beyond the comics at this point. All 7 of his film appearance draw on his past as a Holocaust survivor. If Feige and co. were to take that away, regular people would probably push back.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:39
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There's also not a major recent event that happened in the 90's that has the same weight and imagery as the holocaust that would still have the same impact on his character if they tried to modernize him. Maybe the Rwandan genocide or Bosnia, but they aren't really on the same level of familiarity + aesthetics as the holocaust. The Nazis are so perfectly associated with "evil" and "extermination based on genetic science/supremacy" that literally anyone will instantly get the association. If you downgrade Magneto's backstory tragedy to something less than the holocaust (and it is pretty much impossible to think of a more modern event that is so associated with evil and considered "worse" than the holocaust in the public consciousness, that basically any substitution of an event from the 90's or late 80's would be considered a "downgrade" in seriousness), then it makes the plot-line of "Magneto is basically right/it's understandable why he feels that way/they were just following orders isn't an excuse" much less impactful. There's also basically no higher profile Jewish character whose Judaism is so integral to their identity in super hero media, so you would be erasing that. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 19:41
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EXT- CITY CENTER -- A young boy frantically running from an ever growing cloud of smoke turns to look back and sees a 2nd building collapse. He vows revenge against the various metal structures that caused all this chaos. Insert Marvel Studios stinger
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Jul 14, 2022 19:47
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:EXT- CITY CENTER -- A young boy frantically running from an ever growing cloud of smoke turns to look back and sees a 2nd building collapse. He vows revenge against the various metal structures that caused all this chaos. Hate fueled kid bends steel beams
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Jul 14, 2022 19:49
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live with fruit posted:If Feige and co. were to take that away, regular people would probably push back. I would actually argue that Marvel has carved out not needing to worry about canon, consistency, comic-accuracy, etc. etc. and can probably push out some ridiculous retcons if they wanted to because 'regular people' are going to show up, MCU movies are going to continue to sell like bananas, and they've established What Ifs and alternate dimensions. tldr: Nothing matters and canon isn't real Edit: VVVV lolz The Dave fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 19:50
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The Dave posted:cannon isn't real ??? Cannons are definitely real. 
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Jul 14, 2022 19:52
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:If you downgrade Magneto's backstory tragedy to something less than the holocaust (and it is pretty much impossible to think of a more modern event that is so associated with evil and considered "worse" than the holocaust in the public consciousness, that basically any substitution of an event from the 90's or late 80's would be considered a "downgrade" in seriousness), then it makes the plot-line of "Magneto is basically right/it's understandable why he feels that way/they were just following orders isn't an excuse" much less impactful. I guess it's that I just don't think this is true, and I think if you made him a survivor of race riots in 60s America or something then it'd be just as impactful; maybe even more so, because I think more of the audience can relate to that than to the holocaust, since it's so monstrous and concentration camps are so different to the experience of most people, while protesting isn't. It'd be less evil, I guess, but a more familiar evil regardless; which I think off-sets it. Or maybe I just don't think he has to be defined by the greatest evil in history to have a point? A greater evil might make it easier to sympathize, but I don't think he'd be unsympathetic if he was tied to Apartheid in South Africa or to violence in the Middle East or something.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:54
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tsob already broke it down very well, but yes, Magneto was a very popular villain prior to X-Men #150 when his history was revealed. That issue published in 1981. From there, Chris Claremont started adding a bunch of layers and more grey areas into the character. With some twists and turns along the way, especially in Secret Wars and the Trial of Magneto, Erik had been morphed into an anti-hero for the most part with his own distinct motivations and agenda. That rendered him as an ally or enemy depending on how the X-Men, Fantastic Four, or any other hero team's agenda aligned with his which has kept up into the present day.
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Jul 14, 2022 19:58
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Posting this so I can find it when I have more time later, but Iman Vellani is doing an AMA https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/vz1hfa/whats_up_rmarvelstudios_im_iman_vellaniaka_the/
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Jul 14, 2022 19:59
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The Dave posted:I would actually argue that Marvel has carved out not needing to worry about cannon, consistency, comic-accuracy, etc. etc. and can probably push out some ridiculous retcons if they wanted to because 'regular people' are going to show up, MCU movies are going to continue to sell like bananas, and they've established What Ifs and alternate dimensions. The only character currently in the MCU on Magneto's level is Spider-Man and they tried to get clever with his origin story but ultimately worked in a version of it. I don't think changing Ms. Marvel from an Inhuman to a mutant is on the same level as turning Magneto from a Holocaust survivor to whatever else they could come up with. live with fruit fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 20:00
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tsob posted:I guess it's that I just don't think this is true, and I think if you made him a survivor of race riots in 60s America or something then it'd be just as impactful; maybe even more so, because I think more of the audience can relate to that than to the holocaust, since it's so monstrous and concentration camps are so different to the experience of most people, while protesting isn't. It'd be less evil, I guess, but a more familiar evil regardless; which I think off-sets it. Violence in the middle east, apartheid, and the civil rights era were all about white supremacy, religion, and territory. They weren't about a systematic extermination that basically the entire society was on board with based on genetics. The reason the holocaust is so tied into the modern mythos of Magneto isn't that it was "really bad," it's that it was an event that was entirely and explicitly about exterminating an entire group of people based on genetics. It parallels exactly into the registration, internment, and extermination/cure of mutants and how even people who don't explicitly hate mutants will go along with the extermination efforts because they are afraid of them at a genetic/immutable level. And how Magneto has seen and experienced it all before, so he knows that it is part of humanity. To Magneto, humanity doesn't want superiority over mutants or separation from mutants, they want their extermination because they feel unsafe about who they are on a genetic level. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 20:06
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I mean, I guess you could erase the most famous Jewish character possibly in all comic books. I guess.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:08
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pik_d posted:Posting this so I can find it when I have more time later, but Iman Vellani is doing an AMA love her, single best addition to the universe in a long time spoilered for e6 ms marvel but maybe this doesn't have to be spoilered anymore quote:- Don’t get me wrong I love the inhumans. Black bolt is my father. but I do think the mcu is in a very different place than the comics were and so we were actually able to go this way with Kamala and to be fair the original intent for the comic character WAS to make her a mutant so I am over the moon that this is real and we could make it happen. Sana Amanat and I were freaking out, every single brain cell exploded when we found out we can do this. I was literally refreshing the ep 6 discussion thread on here until someone finallyyyy mentioned it.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:09
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live with fruit posted:The only character currently in the MCU on Magneto's level is Spider-Man and they tried to get clever with his origin story but ultimately worked in a version of it. I don't think changing Ms. Marvel from an Inhuman to a mutant is on the same level as turning Magneto from a Holocaust survivor to whatever else they could come up with. I'm just so jaded that I feel like the MCU is so shallow and 'too big to fail' in a way with movies now that there's no rules to the lore if the movies themselves are summer-blockbuster-level entertaining.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:11
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I had a bigger reaction/answering people post I'm still gonna make, but as a Jew and a big fan of Magneto, I need to hop in right now on Magnetochat. Magneto not being a Holocaust survivor would be a tremendous loss to the character. Yes, it would make him over 100 years old. Yes, there have been other oppressed groups and other genocides since then. But there's never been anything else where the genocide was carried out on such an industrial scale. We've never again seen traincars full of people being loaded up and dropped off directly at death chambers to be murdered at scale. And thank God for that. But it matters, in Magneto's case, because him being a survivor of industrial genocide by explicit government policy explains a great deal about why he freaks out as soon as even the most relatively inoccuous poo poo gets pointed at the mutants. He's on a hair trigger because he's seen this loving play before. "Oh, sure, just a registration act, no big deal, I can't imagine how having a handy list of every mutant would let the government start passing laws to restrict our rights. Just for our protection, I'm sure! And oh, look, Charles, how very helpful of you! I see that not only have you gathered up all the mutants to live in one isolated part of the country, but you've gone ahead and put the badges on their chests yourself this time!"
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Jul 14, 2022 20:43
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Nando v Movies has a whole videos about what to do with Magneto and his conclusion was just saying that his magnetism slows down aging. Which, sure. Why not?
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Jul 14, 2022 20:47
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live with fruit posted:Nando v Movies has a whole videos about what to do with Magneto and his conclusion was just saying that his magnetism slows down aging. Which, sure. Why not? Just do what they did in the comics and say Magneto went to an alien dinosaur island that gave him a magic serum to slow his aging. Also, in conjunction with this magic serum, he is able to use magnetism to somehow slow his cell growth. Also, he fought a mutant called the alpha mutant who turned him into a baby and he was sentenced to rejuvenation back to his original age (but, with enhanced healing abilities) instead of the death penalty by a court for some reason. And his suit is made of a magic alien alloy that defies gravity and by wearing it all the time, he ages slower because of the reduced gravity. Also, time travel. Also, an alien made him have "peak human" attributes and he could live to be 200, but he looks half his age. Pretty straightforward comics adaptation.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:50
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For a while there a lot of the mutants would have "secondary mutations", like Gambit had enhanced agility to help out his throwing things, or their ability wasn't just to shoot fire from their hands but they were immune to fire. Just have some mutants age slower as a side effect.
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Jul 14, 2022 20:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just do what they did in the comics and say Magneto went to an alien dinosaur island that gave him a magic serum to slow his aging. Also, in conjunction with this magic serum, he is able to use magnetism to somehow slow his cell growth. "It's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'"
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Jul 14, 2022 21:00
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Personally, I hope the MCU just doesn't do Magneto, at least not for a long time. We had enough of him, Xavier, Wolverine, Jean Grey, and Mystique in the Fox films. I hope Marvel uses the rest of their stable.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:20
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Bring in Jon Hamm as Mr. Sinister like Fox was planning on doing.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:23
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Just start with the original five kids and have their first mission in the Savage Land. Somewhere in their adventure they unlock a chamber where Magneto was in suspended animation. He doesn't even need to be the main villain. Just have him escape.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:27
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Just give me super buff Magneto already - no more old skinny men.
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Jul 14, 2022 21:28
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Magneto is still in the ice block they found Captain America in but didn't dig deep enough
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Jul 14, 2022 21:31
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I hope the MCU just doesn't do Magneto, at least not for a long time. We had enough of him, Xavier, Wolverine, Jean Grey, and Mystique in the Fox films. Are you insane
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Jul 14, 2022 22:05
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Anyway, episode was great. I raised an eyebrow at three days in Karachi somehow turning Kamala into a parkour expert, but not in a bad way, it's just fun to snark at Clumsy Girl suddenly doing perfect vaults off traffic lights and sliding down streetlamps. I'm actually super okay with the painless Zoe face turn, because Zoe became really really fun once she joined Kamala's friend group, and hell yeah, speed that bit up. "Of course I recognized you, we go to school together, I just wasn't saying anything the cops because I'm not an rear end in a top hat, duh" was a good way of doing it. Mutant reveal owned. And I guess they're officially going with the '92 theme for the X-Men's leitmotif? It's one thing to play it as fanservice when an alternate version of Professor X shows up in the hover chair, and quite another to use it to underscore "you're god damned right we said 'mutant', get hyped, fanboys". And goddamn, I am all about hearing a bombastic orchestral version of the '92 theme playing in a movie theater. Also, I love both the sheer poetry in switching "only an Inhuman because Perlmutter made us/only Inhuman anyone remotely cares about" Kamala into "first MCU mutant" Kamala. And I also also love the line from the screenwriters where they say that the answer to "if anyone but Kamala had put on the bangle, would they have also gotten powers" was always no because from a character perspective, that's the answer it has to be, and the mutant thing just gave them the perfect justification for the thing they already wanted to do. It's worth remembering that that was the original point of mutants; so writers could go "no, gently caress explaining, gently caress making up some weird super-science justification, mutant, move the gently caress on". I'm really sad we didn't get a version of this scene with either Kamala and her mom or dad when they found out:  That is such a powerful line and I loved it so much when I read it. I was waiting the whole time during the rooftop conversation, it would've been so good. (Also, yes, Kamala is exactly the sort of person who wears a jacket with her own symbol on it when she's in civvies.) StrugglingHoneybun posted:Guess the whole thing is supposed to make us scratch our heads, which I'm doing. kazil posted:not sure how much gravitas it had when she dismissed it and was jokingly asking for the car keys in the space of 3 seconds The wrong way is the Star Trek Into Darkness/Spectre way: y'know how in both movies there was a moment where the baddie went "haha, I'm not actually [name], my real name is... *dramatic pause*... Khan Noonien Sing/Blofeld!" and how both movies played it like a huge revelation, with reaction shots to the heroes and huge music stings and nothing happening on screen for several seconds so the audience can flip out? And you know how in both movies it falls completely flat, because in both cases the hero has never loving heard that second name before in their lives and it means absolutely nothing to them, but they still react as though it's a major revelation because the audience attaches a meaning to it? Yeah. Kamala's never heard the word "mutant" in a context outside of science class before. The X-Men don't exist yet. She didn't react because it means nothing to her. We know just how big of a deal that word is; she doesn't. Jet Jaguar posted:Rue most unbelievable thing about the show is the cops/faceless government agency feeling any shame, guilt, or remorse for attacking people in public. Come the gently caress on, Marvel. I'll accept aliens and time travel and magic mutant powers, but suspension of disbelief has limits, ok? The REAL Goobusters posted:Are you insane tsob posted:Batman's parents are killed on the first page of the first issue to introduce him. Zero One posted:Edit. Couple more things...
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Jul 14, 2022 22:15
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Any semi-recent event that could replace the Holocaust in Magneto's origin was probably committed by the US or one of its clients so it'll stick to ol' hateful Nazi Germany
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Jul 14, 2022 22:21
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Klungar posted:Bring in Jon Hamm as Mr. Sinister like Fox was planning on doing. That would be amazing if we finally got Sinister on screen. I was all excited for the tease about him in the dying embers of FOX-Men, so I'm really really hoping for it now.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:28
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Just as a point of order- an alternate Magneto would not "erase" the version connected to the Holocaust. We've had a bunch of movies already with the traditional Magneto. He exists and always will exist in pop culture. They could have another person, with another more modern backstory call himself Magneto and tell a new story and that would be fine, or not, on the basis of how good the new story they wanted to tell was. It would be fine. Get Ian McKellan to make a multiverse cameo to emphasize the MCU doesn't override other depictions and I don't see the problem. The MCU has already depicted a superhero world without mutants, so the mutants in the MCU are going to have to have different stories. That's fine. This whole discussion is frustrating as someone who just wanted to read about people's thoughts on Ms Marvel. A drat good show just ended and all people are talking about is another character obliquely implied by a stinger line. Edit: They could also just have him frozen after WWII or some poo poo. It doesn't matter. However they do it should be judged by however they do it. Getting worked up over the principle of the thing is pointless.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:51
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Eiba posted:This whole discussion is frustrating as someone who just wanted to read about people's thoughts on Ms Marvel. A drat good show just ended and all people are talking about is another character obliquely implied by a stinger line. Yeah, probably a point. I had a big post wrote up, but it's probably worth burning to stop annoying other people. I don't really have anything to add that I haven't already said about the finale though, beyond that I loved all the small moments between Kamala's allies, like Amir asking Kamran if he actually enjoyed British Bake Off, Zoe and Nakia talking about Kamala etc, and that the plan Kamala came up with was basically to Home Alone the school to keep the DoDC busy for a while. CapnAndy posted:I had a bigger reaction/answering people post I'm still gonna make, but as a Jew and a big fan of Magneto, I need to hop in right now on Magnetochat. As above, this probably isn't the best place for such a thing really; but if you have part/all of it written up and/or want to send it to me, I'd love to read it regardless. CapnAndy posted:What, no they're not. Batman's secret identity isn't even revealed until the last panel. His origin story comes six issues later. You are correct; I thought Detective Comics #33 introduced Batman, which opens with his backstory; it's Detective Comics #27 he's introduced in though. I stand corrected.
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Jul 14, 2022 23:20
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