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1stGear posted:Me doing the first Automata raid: Hmm, well, I mean, its a bunch of neat references to Nier but I'm not really feeling Yoko Taro's special touch. Non-familiar FC mates reaching that boss: "oh no..." The rest of us: "OH YES!"
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Jul 14, 2022 22:01
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1stGear posted:Me doing the first Automata raid: Hmm, well, I mean, its a bunch of neat references to Nier but I'm not really feeling Yoko Taro's special touch. I don't like Neir Automata. I could not get into it. Apparently I got close to the "good stuff" but I couldn't stand it any longer and gave up. But that raid series, especially the first one is my favorite raid series in the game. I love the bosses, and I love the music in that last boss especially. Though the new alliance raid's final boss music is a strong contender
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Jul 14, 2022 22:27
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Macaluso posted:I don't like Neir Automata. I could not get into it. THIS CANNOT CONTINUE
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Jul 14, 2022 22:29
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I thought the raids had great spectacle but bad fights and a boring story
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Jul 14, 2022 22:30
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Macaluso posted:I don't like Neir Automata. I could not get into it. Apparently I got close to the "good stuff" but I couldn't stand it any longer and gave up. But that raid series, especially the first one is my favorite raid series in the game. I love the bosses, and I love the music in that last boss especially. Though the new alliance raid's final boss music is a strong contender if you like the raid series i think you should probably give the game another shot, tbqh
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Jul 14, 2022 22:32
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cheetah7071 posted:I thought the raids had great spectacle but bad fights and a boring story The triple jet fight in Puppet Bunker is like the best fight in the game.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:36
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I got Copied Factory in ADR last night and commented to my fiance that I still didn't understand the Nier raid plot. Their response was "it's about an incursion from another world where everyone has a great rear end," which, yeah, seems fair.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:38
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Electric Phantasm posted:The triple jet fight in Puppet Bunker is like the best fight in the game. sorry it's not even the best fight where you can intentionally troll other teams that remains atomos in labyrinth of the ancients
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Jul 14, 2022 22:38
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what? atomos do not give you the satisfaction of death lasering another alliance with your own hands
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Jul 14, 2022 22:39
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stead it gives the satisfaction of watching people slowly lose their minds as people don't stand on the pad
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Jul 14, 2022 22:42
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Macaluso posted:I don't like Neir Automata. I could not get into it. Apparently I got close to the "good stuff" but I couldn't stand it any longer and gave up. But that raid series, especially the first one is my favorite raid series in the game. I love the bosses, and I love the music in that last boss especially. Though the new alliance raid's final boss music is a strong contender I love the existence of Yoko Taro's stuff, but while they keep getting more playable and I think Automata is the first one you can really let people play without caveats, I still don't blame anyone for bouncing off of them. The guy and his team have never let "is this actually good" stop them from trying ideas, and that's led to some amazing stuff (my brother saw the Tree segment in NieR for the first time last year, blew his mind even though it's pretty simple) but also a lot of duds. And that's setting aside the truism that it's okay to dislike good games. Nothing's universal, even if some things click so well with folks that they feel they ought to be.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:43
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cheetah7071 posted:sorry it's not even the best fight where you can intentionally troll other teams nah the laser is way funnier and also the fight itself is actually fun too, unlike Atomos Augus fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 22:44
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The thing about the Nier raids is that the Nier stuff is mostly window dressing for the actual story, which is about the twins and the village. It's the cause of everything, but not the focus or connected to what Taro is trying to look at.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:45
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I like the Nier raids, I just think they could use an Orbonne-sryle Echo buff to make them go a little faster. I used to love them when they were current but now I would prefer any other raid at this point, including a bog-stanfdard CT, because the time investment involved to clear them is so out of step from every other alliance raid series A good Nier raid run takes 40-45 minutes to an Ivalice's 30 or a CT's 20. That might not sound like a big difference but it feels like a slog when a given boss fight takes 8 minutes rather than 5 and it's less of a challenge and more a test of patience.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:46
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Antivehicular posted:I got Copied Factory in ADR last night and commented to my fiance that I still didn't understand the Nier raid plot. Their response was "it's about an incursion from another world where everyone has a great rear end," which, yeah, seems fair. There are two plots: --"Invading fashion models and robots! Beat them up to save the world!" Resolved by saving the world. --Survivor's guilt, trauma, and man's inhumanity to man. Never resolved because trauma doesn't stop, we just find ways to keep going. 
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Jul 14, 2022 22:47
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Yeah, I get that the overall plot is these inscrutable robot factions taking their apocalyptic war to the First, with devastating effects on the locals, and that the WoL is supposed to deliberately not understand the big picture (as an inversion of the core FFXIV plot, which is as much about understanding the threats as stopping them, although that might be a generous reading of Yoko Taro's intent) but I definitely can't explain what's happening in each given raid. Which I guess is the point? I also spend most of all those raids dying like a moron, which I guess is ludonarrative synergy but feels kinda lousy.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:53
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Runa posted:A good Nier raid run takes 40-45 minutes to an Ivalice's 30 or a CT's 20. That might not sound like a big difference but it feels like a slog when a given boss fight takes 8 minutes rather than 5 and it's less of a challenge and more a test of patience. Yeah, this really struck me. Puppet Bunker wasn't so bad, but the last two bosses of Copied Factory take so long.
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Jul 14, 2022 22:54
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Also, yes, every fight in Copied Factory takes a trillion loving years
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Jul 14, 2022 22:54
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The nier raids are kinda boring
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Jul 14, 2022 22:55
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Nah, I really like Puppy Bunkbed and Tower
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Jul 14, 2022 22:57
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i hate tower honestly. i has 2 cool bosses and the rest is just a boring repetitive slog. factory and bunker are good. the dwarf story is very good.
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Jul 14, 2022 23:01
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Runa posted:That might not sound like a big difference but it feels like a slog when a given boss fight takes 8 minutes rather than 5 and it's less of a challenge and more a test of patience. iPodschun fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 23:02
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Antivehicular posted:Also, yes, every fight in Copied Factory takes a trillion loving years I'm beginning to think that the reason the Nier raids take so long is not because the bosses have too much HP, it's that the kind of people that do ADR above 80 aren't very good at the videogame. One of the reasons the Crystal Tower raids don't take all that long (aside from the gear advantage) is that the lvl 50 rotations are very simple. Feels like a lot of pubbies can't grok their 80 rotations. Either that, or because of the ADR ilvl cheese, people don't remember the raid when it comes up once in a blue moon. Alegia doesn't take all that long because it's current and has relevant rewards, so the people playing it aren't just there to get easy XP. Roluth fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 14, 2022 |
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Jul 14, 2022 23:20
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The Nier raids are good but not great imo. The story's decent, the fights are pretty good but the aesthetic is so samey. I'd stick most of them in the middle of a tier list.
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Jul 14, 2022 23:59
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Roluth posted:I'm beginning to think that the reason the Nier raids take so long is not because the bosses have too much HP, it's that the kind of people that do ADR above 80 aren't very good at the videogame. One of the reasons the Crystal Tower raids don't take all that long (aside from the gear advantage) is that the lvl 50 rotations are very simple. Feels like a lot of pubbies can't grok their 80 rotations. Either that, or because of the ADR ilvl cheese, people don't remember the raid when it comes up once in a blue moon. A lot of people are using the roulettes to level alts, and the nature of roulettes means that a lot of them almost never get the chance to play with their full rotation toolkit. When I was leveling ninja I did an absolute shitload of Frontline roulette, Crystal Tower raids, MSQ roulettes, and low level dungeons on the leveling roulette. Getting content that let me do my full 70+ rotation was pretty rare, so those few times I dropped into near-level content my performance was pretty poo poo. Khizan fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 00:01
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yeah like i never cheese my ilvl for alliance roulette and if i get thrown into nier while leveling samurai its not going to be a strong performance. from what i hear, on jp data centers groups would regularly skip the tanks on 9s. i think ive seen that like twice.
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Jul 15, 2022 00:18
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Awesome! posted:yeah like i never cheese my ilvl for alliance roulette and if i get thrown into nier while leveling samurai its not going to be a strong performance. Yeah by the end of ShB back on Elemental, we'd regularly kill 9S before he could undock a second time.
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Jul 15, 2022 00:23
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Awesome! posted:what? atomos do not give you the satisfaction of death lasering another alliance with your own hands (Shadowbringers spoilers, has sound) https://imgur.com/a/ETkJ2UW
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Jul 15, 2022 01:55
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Khizan posted:A lot of people are using the roulettes to level alts, and the nature of roulettes means that a lot of them almost never get the chance to play with their full rotation toolkit. When I was leveling ninja I did an absolute shitload of Frontline roulette, Crystal Tower raids, MSQ roulettes, and low level dungeons on the leveling roulette. Getting content that let me do my full 70+ rotation was pretty rare, so those few times I dropped into near-level content my performance was pretty poo poo. I've been doing roulette fairly regularly as I level my first jobs (Which reminds me, I should get back to WHM and THM) and nearly every time it's been like "Oh, I'm back in Tam-Tara. I was just learning how that new ability worked, too. Well, back to Physick whenever my fairy's not keeping literally everyone topped all the way up." Except for the time I got Aurum Vale and was like "Oh poo poo, the tank's pulling everything, how do I heal it- I have Lustrate, here have SIX LUSTRATES IN A ROW"
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Jul 15, 2022 02:37
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Roluth posted:I'm beginning to think that the reason the Nier raids take so long is not because the bosses have too much HP, it's that the kind of people that do ADR above 80 aren't very good at the videogame. One of the reasons the Crystal Tower raids don't take all that long (aside from the gear advantage) is that the lvl 50 rotations are very simple. Feels like a lot of pubbies can't grok their 80 rotations. Either that, or because of the ADR ilvl cheese, people don't remember the raid when it comes up once in a blue moon. The people doing lower level ADR aren't very good either. Yesterday I was in a Void Ark where we drat near had a full wipe due to nobody touching Cuchulainn's balls. (Two tanks survived and whittled down the last 4% or so of his HP). I don't think I've seen that happen since that raid was brand new. The rest of the fights all took 20-30% longer than they usually do due to very low overall damage output. If we'd been in Syrcus Tower we might have actually seen Glasya summon the bots.
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Jul 15, 2022 02:44
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 dragoon is safe
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Jul 15, 2022 03:23
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for now
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Jul 15, 2022 03:25
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there's a lot of fights in all the alliance raids that a single party can just kind of crawl through if enough people keep dying. the raids starting like halfway through ivalice are interesting because they start throwing in more triple tankbusters which I wonder was an attempt to clean sweep a single carry party if it got to that point. but even then I've seen groups zombie shuffle for fifteen or twenty minutes on something like the tower's second boss, which can be annoying. personally I like the nier raids I just think they suffer from a lot of downtime. a lot of bosses take time to "boot up", I guess, like the 2nd factory boss or the elevator startup in puppet bunker. it's telling that the bosses in aglaia start their preamble as you're running up to them instead of after you've crossed into their arena.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:27
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cheetah7071 posted:
Jesus what are they going to do to those jobs?
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Jul 15, 2022 03:31
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Well, given precedent, delete as much uniqueness as possible for the sake of balance and to make room for more buttons in the next expansion. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt after the PvP rework, but that has fundamentally different pressures than PvE design. e: I'm trying to think of a class that feels better in EW compared to ShB. Well, except for BLM. Obviously. Most of the new stuff felt to me like pretty redundant buttons with flashy animations attached, and what good came from the expansion turnover was primarily in adding little bits of QoL to old buttons. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 03:34
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cheetah7071 posted:
It's a good move. I don't fault them for wanting to streamline the current crop of jobs and increase their accessibility, but I think the whole kerfuffle over Kaiten's made them take a step back and realize that they need to take the proper amount of time to evaluate what to keep and what to change. Corbeau posted:Well, given precedent, delete as much uniqueness as possible for the sake of balance It's never really been about raw numerical balance; it's been about making the jobs more appealing to a larger percentage of the playerbase, generally either by simplifying mechanics or reducing the penalty for failure (e.g. removing positionals). This is something I'm thoroughly on the fence for: I don't want to necessarily gatekeep people having fun with everything the game has available, but there's a point where reducing complexity eventually starts to impact the enjoyment of people like me who like mastering difficult systems. It's a tough line to walk. Vermain fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 03:35
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Vermain posted:t's never really been about raw numerical balance; it's been about making the jobs more appealing to a larger percentage of the playerbase, generally either by simplifying mechanics or reducing the penalty for failure (e.g. removing positionals). This is something I'm thoroughly on the fence for: I don't want to necessarily gatekeep people having fun with everything the game has available, but there's a point where reducing complexity eventually starts to impact the enjoyment of people like me who like mastering difficult systems. It's a tough line to walk. I genuinely don't think it's quite this simple, though it's a definitely an influence. I think they don't have enough people, and thus enough mental energy with which to develop new ideas, working on class design. I'm sure that I'm blanking a bit, but BLM is the only class that I can think of that got a particularly impactful brand new tool in EW. And they keep adding new classes every expansion. If you keep adding design burden without adding more designers, something has to give. I think we're already seeing that the first thing to give is unique but old class tools. They can't remove new buttons because they're new features, with new animation work, but the new buttons are less interesting because they're steadily becoming less well integrated into the kits. So cuts have to come from the bone. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 03:46
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Corbeau posted:e: I'm trying to think of a class that feels better in EW compared to ShB. Well, except for BLM. Obviously. Most of the new stuff felt to me like pretty redundant buttons with flashy animations attached, and what good came from the expansion turnover was primarily in adding little bits of QoL to old buttons. I like Bard. They didn't tweak much but it REALLY helps. Apex Arrow got the punch it sorely needed.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:46
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Vitamean posted:there's a lot of fights in all the alliance raids that a single party can just kind of crawl through if enough people keep dying. the raids starting like halfway through ivalice are interesting because they start throwing in more triple tankbusters which I wonder was an attempt to clean sweep a single carry party if it got to that point. but even then I've seen groups zombie shuffle for fifteen or twenty minutes on something like the tower's second boss, which can be annoying. they used to do full wipes if too many people were dead (sand orbs in ivalice 1 at level, or all of crystal tower/hw raids) but now those are mostly replaced with shared tankbusters or more recently the super beefy stack marker in aglaia last boss recent dungeon bosses also let you drag things on for way too long as a solo tank and i'm not really a fan of this
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Jul 15, 2022 03:46
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Vermain posted:It's a good move. I don't fault them for wanting to streamline the current crop of jobs and increase their accessibility, Not every job needs to be simple nor does every job needs to be for everyone. Also please stop loving with AST holy poo poo, it was horrible for the first 3 months of ShB after the last Major Rework and barely became playable in that until EW where they're actually in a really good space right now.
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